'TWO BIG PIGS': Rude woman kicked off flight after fat-shaming meltdown

PJ_Soul · February 2019

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

Smellyman, how about reading the article? It's FULL of science, made especially for people like you. Good grief.

It isn't full of science.
It mentions one outdated study and the author uses his personal opinion to extrapolate irresponsibly.
Diets absolutely do work! All of them!
The problem is people, people don't work diets. The reason isn't biological and it isn't immutable, it's simple willpower.
If metabolic rate really responded so vigorously, and had such a profound effect, then people who lose weight and keep it off would be medical anomalies. They aren't.

Fat shaming isn't cool, and I'm sorry your doctors weren't very kind, but food addiction is serious and pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away.
I say this with confidence as a serious food addict who suffers periods of bulimia in my battle with sugar.

For sure, it absolutely is not just "simple willpower" for some people, and it's harmful to the entire problem to go around insisting that it is.
For some, that is what it's about, yes, and they know it themselves better than anyone, so I don't know why in the fuck others feel the need to remind them. I think those people are just being mean assholes. But for others, no way - it's far more powerful than that. Anyone who rejects this must be lacking empathy or something, I don't know. It's equivalent to people saying "just suck it up" to those who suffer from depression or an anxiety disorder. It's hurtful and ignorant.

For sure, it IS simple willpower. The laws of thermodynamics are immutable.

It might be hurtful for some to hear, but people do need to suck it up when it comes to depression, anxiety, obesity, addiction and every other fucking problem. Some people have an incredibly hard row to hoe, and I do empathize with that, but everyone I've known in life that had to hoe one of those rows did so by sucking it the fuck up. That's how you get out of the bed in the morning and keep on living. Nearly everyone is sucking it up nearly all the time in one way or the other, to some degree. Some have it easy, some have it hard. Unfortunately for them, the hard cases just have to suck up a shit ton more.

You talk of empathy, but you really mean sympathy. When I broke down and ate a Taco Bell 5$Box and a 5th Avenue for lunch today, I did so with cognisant empathy for the struggles of obese people, knowing how hard it is to make the right choice when faced with an obviously wrong, but attractive choice.
Addicts know they are addicted and know what choices they should be making, acknowledging that isn't a lack of empathy, and pretending otherwise isn't empathy. It isn't even sympathy, it's dishonest pity.

Saying someone should suck it up when they suffer from a mental illness is hugely ignorant at best. Everything you said here just proves how you totally don't really understand mental illness. Attitudes like this are what's keeping the terrible, harmful stigmas about mental illness alive. Yes, even with all your disclaimers thrown in. And no, I mean EMPATHY. Not sympathy. You don't have empathy when it comes to this topic at all. You've just proven it.

actually, he is correct. he uses terms like "suck it up", and that may offend, but what he means is actually correct. And I know from experience of the past 20+ years.

is depression a choice? no. no mental illness is. but how you react to it, ultimately, is. getting out of bed. getting help. living. it can be incredibly difficult (as seen in my sick accrual at work), but it IS ultimately a choice.

Not for everyone it's not. And "suck it up" is a VERY offensive term that is completely unnecessary and inaccurate IMO. Fighting a battle is not "sucking it up" or anything close to it IMO.

haha, ok. I speak from a pretty serious standpoint here. not sure if you have any, but I'll tell you this:

depression makes it FUCKING DIFFICULT to a point where you sometimes feel like it is physically difficult to move. But you can move. depression isn't physically making it so you can't get out of bed. as much as it feels like it. seriously, I once sat on my couch for 8 hours without moving. Because I literally felt like I couldn't. but I could. once I made the choice to do so, in rgambs terms, "sucking it up". I know what you mean about that term seemingly being offensive to people with mental illness, I just happen to know how he speaks, so it's not offensive to me in this context.

What I mean is that for some people, getting to that point where you make that choice to move just becomes an impossibility. I mean that in the sense that it is simply an insurmountable thing for that person. For some, they can get there. Others just can't. They CAN'T. The fact that others can is simply a "happy" one, not one that proves all anyone has to do is muster the will and make the choice. It's the same with addiction. Now I do have an interest in this debate, and I became interested in it after reading A Million Little Pieces and observed that whole ridiculous fallout between the author and Oprah, lmao.

rgambs · February 2019

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

Smellyman, how about reading the article? It's FULL of science, made especially for people like you. Good grief.

It isn't full of science.
It mentions one outdated study and the author uses his personal opinion to extrapolate irresponsibly.
Diets absolutely do work! All of them!
The problem is people, people don't work diets. The reason isn't biological and it isn't immutable, it's simple willpower.
If metabolic rate really responded so vigorously, and had such a profound effect, then people who lose weight and keep it off would be medical anomalies. They aren't.

Fat shaming isn't cool, and I'm sorry your doctors weren't very kind, but food addiction is serious and pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away.
I say this with confidence as a serious food addict who suffers periods of bulimia in my battle with sugar.

For sure, it absolutely is not just "simple willpower" for some people, and it's harmful to the entire problem to go around insisting that it is.
For some, that is what it's about, yes, and they know it themselves better than anyone, so I don't know why in the fuck others feel the need to remind them. I think those people are just being mean assholes. But for others, no way - it's far more powerful than that. Anyone who rejects this must be lacking empathy or something, I don't know. It's equivalent to people saying "just suck it up" to those who suffer from depression or an anxiety disorder. It's hurtful and ignorant.

For sure, it IS simple willpower. The laws of thermodynamics are immutable.

It might be hurtful for some to hear, but people do need to suck it up when it comes to depression, anxiety, obesity, addiction and every other fucking problem. Some people have an incredibly hard row to hoe, and I do empathize with that, but everyone I've known in life that had to hoe one of those rows did so by sucking it the fuck up. That's how you get out of the bed in the morning and keep on living. Nearly everyone is sucking it up nearly all the time in one way or the other, to some degree. Some have it easy, some have it hard. Unfortunately for them, the hard cases just have to suck up a shit ton more.

You talk of empathy, but you really mean sympathy. When I broke down and ate a Taco Bell 5$Box and a 5th Avenue for lunch today, I did so with cognisant empathy for the struggles of obese people, knowing how hard it is to make the right choice when faced with an obviously wrong, but attractive choice.
Addicts know they are addicted and know what choices they should be making, acknowledging that isn't a lack of empathy, and pretending otherwise isn't empathy. It isn't even sympathy, it's dishonest pity.

Saying someone should suck it up when they suffer from a mental illness is hugely ignorant at best. Everything you said here just proves how you totally don't really understand mental illness. Attitudes like this are what's keeping the terrible, harmful stigmas about mental illness alive. Yes, even with all your disclaimers thrown in. And no, I mean EMPATHY. Not sympathy. You don't have empathy when it comes to this topic at all. You've just proven it.

Haha spoken like someone who's only ever been on the outside looking in. You sound like a textbook, and I don't think you realize how patronizing your preachy acceptance is.

I cut my BMI from obese to healthy, and have regular bouts with eating disorder, but I don't understand the issue because I'm not apologetic enough on a web forum.
I've stopped my mother AND brother in the midst of suicide attempts, but I don't understand mental illness because I repeat their own words, on a web forum.

Dude. I like you, but that is a scumbag-ish thing to say, because I have lived it myself (mental illness), and that is where I'm coming from.
Also, I did say what I'm saying doesn't apply to everyone. I said that for some it is indeed just about will power when it comes to weight loss.

I like you too! We but heads because we are candid and direct...and frankly, we both always think we are right. I can't recall a single instance when either of us ever conceded defeat to anyone or admitted to being wrong about anything here.
I'm sorry if that seemed scummy, but you must realise I was only hitting back at the same thing. You can't expect to position yourself with such arrogant authority and not see a bold challenge. You discounted my empathy directly and harshly, and you don't really have the intellectual authority to do so, so I responded in kind.
Still friends! lol

rgambs · February 2019

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

Smellyman, how about reading the article? It's FULL of science, made especially for people like you. Good grief.

It isn't full of science.
It mentions one outdated study and the author uses his personal opinion to extrapolate irresponsibly.
Diets absolutely do work! All of them!
The problem is people, people don't work diets. The reason isn't biological and it isn't immutable, it's simple willpower.
If metabolic rate really responded so vigorously, and had such a profound effect, then people who lose weight and keep it off would be medical anomalies. They aren't.

Fat shaming isn't cool, and I'm sorry your doctors weren't very kind, but food addiction is serious and pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away.
I say this with confidence as a serious food addict who suffers periods of bulimia in my battle with sugar.

For sure, it absolutely is not just "simple willpower" for some people, and it's harmful to the entire problem to go around insisting that it is.
For some, that is what it's about, yes, and they know it themselves better than anyone, so I don't know why in the fuck others feel the need to remind them. I think those people are just being mean assholes. But for others, no way - it's far more powerful than that. Anyone who rejects this must be lacking empathy or something, I don't know. It's equivalent to people saying "just suck it up" to those who suffer from depression or an anxiety disorder. It's hurtful and ignorant.

For sure, it IS simple willpower. The laws of thermodynamics are immutable.

It might be hurtful for some to hear, but people do need to suck it up when it comes to depression, anxiety, obesity, addiction and every other fucking problem. Some people have an incredibly hard row to hoe, and I do empathize with that, but everyone I've known in life that had to hoe one of those rows did so by sucking it the fuck up. That's how you get out of the bed in the morning and keep on living. Nearly everyone is sucking it up nearly all the time in one way or the other, to some degree. Some have it easy, some have it hard. Unfortunately for them, the hard cases just have to suck up a shit ton more.

You talk of empathy, but you really mean sympathy. When I broke down and ate a Taco Bell 5$Box and a 5th Avenue for lunch today, I did so with cognisant empathy for the struggles of obese people, knowing how hard it is to make the right choice when faced with an obviously wrong, but attractive choice.
Addicts know they are addicted and know what choices they should be making, acknowledging that isn't a lack of empathy, and pretending otherwise isn't empathy. It isn't even sympathy, it's dishonest pity.

Saying someone should suck it up when they suffer from a mental illness is hugely ignorant at best. Everything you said here just proves how you totally don't really understand mental illness. Attitudes like this are what's keeping the terrible, harmful stigmas about mental illness alive. Yes, even with all your disclaimers thrown in. And no, I mean EMPATHY. Not sympathy. You don't have empathy when it comes to this topic at all. You've just proven it.

actually, he is correct. he uses terms like "suck it up", and that may offend, but what he means is actually correct. And I know from experience of the past 20+ years.

is depression a choice? no. no mental illness is. but how you react to it, ultimately, is. getting out of bed. getting help. living. it can be incredibly difficult (as seen in my sick accrual at work), but it IS ultimately a choice.

Not for everyone it's not. And "suck it up" is a VERY offensive term that is completely unnecessary and inaccurate IMO. Fighting a battle is not "sucking it up" or anything close to it IMO.

haha, ok. I speak from a pretty serious standpoint here. not sure if you have any, but I'll tell you this:

depression makes it FUCKING DIFFICULT to a point where you sometimes feel like it is physically difficult to move. But you can move. depression isn't physically making it so you can't get out of bed. as much as it feels like it. seriously, I once sat on my couch for 8 hours without moving. Because I literally felt like I couldn't. but I could. once I made the choice to do so, in rgambs terms, "sucking it up". I know what you mean about that term seemingly being offensive to people with mental illness, I just happen to know how he speaks, so it's not offensive to me in this context.

I watch "Dope Sick Nation" on Vice and the sponsors are constantly talking shit to the other addicts. One of the sponsors apologizes for doing it and another pipes up and says "no dude, she needs to hear that shit, she needs someone to lay into her and let her know when she's screwing up".

This seems like the same thing to me.

Is it?

it isn't, because I know gambs (on here, anyway), and I know how he speaks here and know that it isn't what he'd say in a real person-to-person dialogue in a serious situation. taking the emotion out of it, which I know is hard to do, he's right.

look, I once misunderstood how gambs speaks on here. once i realized he just speaks in a very frank and matter of fact matter, I understood his language a lot better to not be offensive. Just direct.

Thanks bud!

HughFreakingDillon · February 2019

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

Smellyman, how about reading the article? It's FULL of science, made especially for people like you. Good grief.

It isn't full of science.
It mentions one outdated study and the author uses his personal opinion to extrapolate irresponsibly.
Diets absolutely do work! All of them!
The problem is people, people don't work diets. The reason isn't biological and it isn't immutable, it's simple willpower.
If metabolic rate really responded so vigorously, and had such a profound effect, then people who lose weight and keep it off would be medical anomalies. They aren't.

Fat shaming isn't cool, and I'm sorry your doctors weren't very kind, but food addiction is serious and pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away.
I say this with confidence as a serious food addict who suffers periods of bulimia in my battle with sugar.

For sure, it absolutely is not just "simple willpower" for some people, and it's harmful to the entire problem to go around insisting that it is.
For some, that is what it's about, yes, and they know it themselves better than anyone, so I don't know why in the fuck others feel the need to remind them. I think those people are just being mean assholes. But for others, no way - it's far more powerful than that. Anyone who rejects this must be lacking empathy or something, I don't know. It's equivalent to people saying "just suck it up" to those who suffer from depression or an anxiety disorder. It's hurtful and ignorant.

For sure, it IS simple willpower. The laws of thermodynamics are immutable.

It might be hurtful for some to hear, but people do need to suck it up when it comes to depression, anxiety, obesity, addiction and every other fucking problem. Some people have an incredibly hard row to hoe, and I do empathize with that, but everyone I've known in life that had to hoe one of those rows did so by sucking it the fuck up. That's how you get out of the bed in the morning and keep on living. Nearly everyone is sucking it up nearly all the time in one way or the other, to some degree. Some have it easy, some have it hard. Unfortunately for them, the hard cases just have to suck up a shit ton more.

You talk of empathy, but you really mean sympathy. When I broke down and ate a Taco Bell 5$Box and a 5th Avenue for lunch today, I did so with cognisant empathy for the struggles of obese people, knowing how hard it is to make the right choice when faced with an obviously wrong, but attractive choice.
Addicts know they are addicted and know what choices they should be making, acknowledging that isn't a lack of empathy, and pretending otherwise isn't empathy. It isn't even sympathy, it's dishonest pity.

Saying someone should suck it up when they suffer from a mental illness is hugely ignorant at best. Everything you said here just proves how you totally don't really understand mental illness. Attitudes like this are what's keeping the terrible, harmful stigmas about mental illness alive. Yes, even with all your disclaimers thrown in. And no, I mean EMPATHY. Not sympathy. You don't have empathy when it comes to this topic at all. You've just proven it.

Haha spoken like someone who's only ever been on the outside looking in. You sound like a textbook, and I don't think you realize how patronizing your preachy acceptance is.

I cut my BMI from obese to healthy, and have regular bouts with eating disorder, but I don't understand the issue because I'm not apologetic enough on a web forum.
I've stopped my mother AND brother in the midst of suicide attempts, but I don't understand mental illness because I repeat their own words, on a web forum.

Dude. I like you, but that is a scumbag-ish thing to say, because I have lived it myself (mental illness), and that is where I'm coming from.
Also, I did say what I'm saying doesn't apply to everyone. I said that for some it is indeed just about will power when it comes to weight loss.

I like you too! We but heads because we are candid and direct...and frankly, we both always think we are right. I can't recall a single instance when either of us ever conceded defeat to anyone or admitted to being wrong about anything here.
I'm sorry if that seemed scummy, but you must realise I was only hitting back at the same thing. You can't expect to position yourself with such arrogant authority and not see a bold challenge. You discounted my empathy directly and harshly, and you don't really have the intellectual authority to do so, so I responded in kind.
Still friends! lol

PJ_Soul · February 2019

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

Smellyman, how about reading the article? It's FULL of science, made especially for people like you. Good grief.

It isn't full of science.
It mentions one outdated study and the author uses his personal opinion to extrapolate irresponsibly.
Diets absolutely do work! All of them!
The problem is people, people don't work diets. The reason isn't biological and it isn't immutable, it's simple willpower.
If metabolic rate really responded so vigorously, and had such a profound effect, then people who lose weight and keep it off would be medical anomalies. They aren't.

Fat shaming isn't cool, and I'm sorry your doctors weren't very kind, but food addiction is serious and pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away.
I say this with confidence as a serious food addict who suffers periods of bulimia in my battle with sugar.

For sure, it absolutely is not just "simple willpower" for some people, and it's harmful to the entire problem to go around insisting that it is.
For some, that is what it's about, yes, and they know it themselves better than anyone, so I don't know why in the fuck others feel the need to remind them. I think those people are just being mean assholes. But for others, no way - it's far more powerful than that. Anyone who rejects this must be lacking empathy or something, I don't know. It's equivalent to people saying "just suck it up" to those who suffer from depression or an anxiety disorder. It's hurtful and ignorant.

For sure, it IS simple willpower. The laws of thermodynamics are immutable.

It might be hurtful for some to hear, but people do need to suck it up when it comes to depression, anxiety, obesity, addiction and every other fucking problem. Some people have an incredibly hard row to hoe, and I do empathize with that, but everyone I've known in life that had to hoe one of those rows did so by sucking it the fuck up. That's how you get out of the bed in the morning and keep on living. Nearly everyone is sucking it up nearly all the time in one way or the other, to some degree. Some have it easy, some have it hard. Unfortunately for them, the hard cases just have to suck up a shit ton more.

You talk of empathy, but you really mean sympathy. When I broke down and ate a Taco Bell 5$Box and a 5th Avenue for lunch today, I did so with cognisant empathy for the struggles of obese people, knowing how hard it is to make the right choice when faced with an obviously wrong, but attractive choice.
Addicts know they are addicted and know what choices they should be making, acknowledging that isn't a lack of empathy, and pretending otherwise isn't empathy. It isn't even sympathy, it's dishonest pity.

Saying someone should suck it up when they suffer from a mental illness is hugely ignorant at best. Everything you said here just proves how you totally don't really understand mental illness. Attitudes like this are what's keeping the terrible, harmful stigmas about mental illness alive. Yes, even with all your disclaimers thrown in. And no, I mean EMPATHY. Not sympathy. You don't have empathy when it comes to this topic at all. You've just proven it.

Haha spoken like someone who's only ever been on the outside looking in. You sound like a textbook, and I don't think you realize how patronizing your preachy acceptance is.

I cut my BMI from obese to healthy, and have regular bouts with eating disorder, but I don't understand the issue because I'm not apologetic enough on a web forum.
I've stopped my mother AND brother in the midst of suicide attempts, but I don't understand mental illness because I repeat their own words, on a web forum.

Dude. I like you, but that is a scumbag-ish thing to say, because I have lived it myself (mental illness), and that is where I'm coming from.
Also, I did say what I'm saying doesn't apply to everyone. I said that for some it is indeed just about will power when it comes to weight loss.

I like you too! We but heads because we are candid and direct...and frankly, we both always think we are right. I can't recall a single instance when either of us ever conceded defeat to anyone or admitted to being wrong about anything here.
I'm sorry if that seemed scummy, but you must realise I was only hitting back at the same thing. You can't expect to position yourself with such arrogant authority and not see a bold challenge. You discounted my empathy directly and harshly, and you don't really have the intellectual authority to do so, so I responded in kind.
Still friends! lol

Of course still friends (I think we've both admitted to getting facts wrong - I know I have. But yeah, we are both strong in our developed opinions; I never understood why anyone expects others to just change their minds about strongly held opinions because they haven't been confronted with new info that makes them change their views significantly - isn't that pretty wishy-washy?).

But really..... I just think the way you speak about these issues is harmful to the cause. It's the language that really does maintain hurtful stigmas, and that keeps people from seeking help. I feel like you lack an understanding because of the way you seem to be choosing to address or discuss, in a way that I think really ends up hurting people. Yet you seem to think it's helpful somehow.

rgambs · February 2019

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

Smellyman, how about reading the article? It's FULL of science, made especially for people like you. Good grief.

It isn't full of science.
It mentions one outdated study and the author uses his personal opinion to extrapolate irresponsibly.
Diets absolutely do work! All of them!
The problem is people, people don't work diets. The reason isn't biological and it isn't immutable, it's simple willpower.
If metabolic rate really responded so vigorously, and had such a profound effect, then people who lose weight and keep it off would be medical anomalies. They aren't.

Fat shaming isn't cool, and I'm sorry your doctors weren't very kind, but food addiction is serious and pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away.
I say this with confidence as a serious food addict who suffers periods of bulimia in my battle with sugar.

For sure, it absolutely is not just "simple willpower" for some people, and it's harmful to the entire problem to go around insisting that it is.
For some, that is what it's about, yes, and they know it themselves better than anyone, so I don't know why in the fuck others feel the need to remind them. I think those people are just being mean assholes. But for others, no way - it's far more powerful than that. Anyone who rejects this must be lacking empathy or something, I don't know. It's equivalent to people saying "just suck it up" to those who suffer from depression or an anxiety disorder. It's hurtful and ignorant.

For sure, it IS simple willpower. The laws of thermodynamics are immutable.

It might be hurtful for some to hear, but people do need to suck it up when it comes to depression, anxiety, obesity, addiction and every other fucking problem. Some people have an incredibly hard row to hoe, and I do empathize with that, but everyone I've known in life that had to hoe one of those rows did so by sucking it the fuck up. That's how you get out of the bed in the morning and keep on living. Nearly everyone is sucking it up nearly all the time in one way or the other, to some degree. Some have it easy, some have it hard. Unfortunately for them, the hard cases just have to suck up a shit ton more.

You talk of empathy, but you really mean sympathy. When I broke down and ate a Taco Bell 5$Box and a 5th Avenue for lunch today, I did so with cognisant empathy for the struggles of obese people, knowing how hard it is to make the right choice when faced with an obviously wrong, but attractive choice.
Addicts know they are addicted and know what choices they should be making, acknowledging that isn't a lack of empathy, and pretending otherwise isn't empathy. It isn't even sympathy, it's dishonest pity.

Saying someone should suck it up when they suffer from a mental illness is hugely ignorant at best. Everything you said here just proves how you totally don't really understand mental illness. Attitudes like this are what's keeping the terrible, harmful stigmas about mental illness alive. Yes, even with all your disclaimers thrown in. And no, I mean EMPATHY. Not sympathy. You don't have empathy when it comes to this topic at all. You've just proven it.

Haha spoken like someone who's only ever been on the outside looking in. You sound like a textbook, and I don't think you realize how patronizing your preachy acceptance is.

I cut my BMI from obese to healthy, and have regular bouts with eating disorder, but I don't understand the issue because I'm not apologetic enough on a web forum.
I've stopped my mother AND brother in the midst of suicide attempts, but I don't understand mental illness because I repeat their own words, on a web forum.

Dude. I like you, but that is a scumbag-ish thing to say, because I have lived it myself (mental illness), and that is where I'm coming from.
Also, I did say what I'm saying doesn't apply to everyone. I said that for some it is indeed just about will power when it comes to weight loss.

I like you too! We but heads because we are candid and direct...and frankly, we both always think we are right. I can't recall a single instance when either of us ever conceded defeat to anyone or admitted to being wrong about anything here.
I'm sorry if that seemed scummy, but you must realise I was only hitting back at the same thing. You can't expect to position yourself with such arrogant authority and not see a bold challenge. You discounted my empathy directly and harshly, and you don't really have the intellectual authority to do so, so I responded in kind.
Still friends! lol

Of course still friends (I think we've both admitted to getting facts wrong - I know I have. But yeah, we are both strong in our developed opinions; I never understood why anyone expects others to just change their minds about strongly held opinions because they haven't been confronted with new info that makes them change their views significantly - isn't that pretty wishy-washy?).
But really..... I just think the way you speak about these issues is harmful to the cause. It's the language that really does maintain hurtful stigmas, and that keeps people from seeking help. I feel like you lack an understanding because of the way you seem to be choosing to address or discuss, in a way that I think really ends up hurting people. Yet you seem to think it's helpful somehow.

I don't think it's helpful or hurtful. It's just a discussion on the PJ forum.
I do worry that discourse on the subject is verging into coddling territory, but discourse on a subject and dealing with people in real life aren't the same. I don't go around in life coldly and clinically informing people I love and respect that they are making bad choices and they know it. I treat PEOPLE with respect, no matter what, but I won't suffer bullshit idly on the internet, and these topics are ripe with bullshit.
Starvation mode LOL

what dreams · February 2019

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

Smellyman, how about reading the article? It's FULL of science, made especially for people like you. Good grief.

It isn't full of science.
It mentions one outdated study and the author uses his personal opinion to extrapolate irresponsibly.
Diets absolutely do work! All of them!
The problem is people, people don't work diets. The reason isn't biological and it isn't immutable, it's simple willpower.
If metabolic rate really responded so vigorously, and had such a profound effect, then people who lose weight and keep it off would be medical anomalies. They aren't.

Fat shaming isn't cool, and I'm sorry your doctors weren't very kind, but food addiction is serious and pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away.
I say this with confidence as a serious food addict who suffers periods of bulimia in my battle with sugar.

I never said -- nor does the article state anywhere -- that food addiction doesn't exist. In fact, the scientists cited throughout the entire article suggest that healthy weight loss/control (whatever you want to call it) cannot occur if people don't address the underlying issues leading them to eat the way they do. If willpower is the answer, then please let's treat a lack of willpower as a cause of disease the same we would do with all other causes of disease. We would never say to someone who doesn't respond to cancer treatment "Oh, if you would just try harder at your chemo. . ." Let's set up a system of medical support for obese people -- and if you read the end of the article, you would see that in spite of the Prevention Task Force's recommendation (based on fucking cited RESEARCH), most insurance companies will only cover one session with a nutrition counselor instead of the minimum of 12 that it takes to get people on the right path to success.
It just seems to me that if you want to believe whatever you want to believe, go ahead. But to make assertions that this writer did not do his homework, tells me that you either did not really read it, or you're really not ready to face the actual facts about how our food system and our health system need to do better for obese people.

PJ_Soul · February 2019

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

Smellyman, how about reading the article? It's FULL of science, made especially for people like you. Good grief.

It isn't full of science.
It mentions one outdated study and the author uses his personal opinion to extrapolate irresponsibly.
Diets absolutely do work! All of them!
The problem is people, people don't work diets. The reason isn't biological and it isn't immutable, it's simple willpower.
If metabolic rate really responded so vigorously, and had such a profound effect, then people who lose weight and keep it off would be medical anomalies. They aren't.

Fat shaming isn't cool, and I'm sorry your doctors weren't very kind, but food addiction is serious and pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away.
I say this with confidence as a serious food addict who suffers periods of bulimia in my battle with sugar.

For sure, it absolutely is not just "simple willpower" for some people, and it's harmful to the entire problem to go around insisting that it is.
For some, that is what it's about, yes, and they know it themselves better than anyone, so I don't know why in the fuck others feel the need to remind them. I think those people are just being mean assholes. But for others, no way - it's far more powerful than that. Anyone who rejects this must be lacking empathy or something, I don't know. It's equivalent to people saying "just suck it up" to those who suffer from depression or an anxiety disorder. It's hurtful and ignorant.

For sure, it IS simple willpower. The laws of thermodynamics are immutable.

It might be hurtful for some to hear, but people do need to suck it up when it comes to depression, anxiety, obesity, addiction and every other fucking problem. Some people have an incredibly hard row to hoe, and I do empathize with that, but everyone I've known in life that had to hoe one of those rows did so by sucking it the fuck up. That's how you get out of the bed in the morning and keep on living. Nearly everyone is sucking it up nearly all the time in one way or the other, to some degree. Some have it easy, some have it hard. Unfortunately for them, the hard cases just have to suck up a shit ton more.

You talk of empathy, but you really mean sympathy. When I broke down and ate a Taco Bell 5$Box and a 5th Avenue for lunch today, I did so with cognisant empathy for the struggles of obese people, knowing how hard it is to make the right choice when faced with an obviously wrong, but attractive choice.
Addicts know they are addicted and know what choices they should be making, acknowledging that isn't a lack of empathy, and pretending otherwise isn't empathy. It isn't even sympathy, it's dishonest pity.

Saying someone should suck it up when they suffer from a mental illness is hugely ignorant at best. Everything you said here just proves how you totally don't really understand mental illness. Attitudes like this are what's keeping the terrible, harmful stigmas about mental illness alive. Yes, even with all your disclaimers thrown in. And no, I mean EMPATHY. Not sympathy. You don't have empathy when it comes to this topic at all. You've just proven it.

Haha spoken like someone who's only ever been on the outside looking in. You sound like a textbook, and I don't think you realize how patronizing your preachy acceptance is.

I cut my BMI from obese to healthy, and have regular bouts with eating disorder, but I don't understand the issue because I'm not apologetic enough on a web forum.
I've stopped my mother AND brother in the midst of suicide attempts, but I don't understand mental illness because I repeat their own words, on a web forum.

Dude. I like you, but that is a scumbag-ish thing to say, because I have lived it myself (mental illness), and that is where I'm coming from.
Also, I did say what I'm saying doesn't apply to everyone. I said that for some it is indeed just about will power when it comes to weight loss.

I like you too! We but heads because we are candid and direct...and frankly, we both always think we are right. I can't recall a single instance when either of us ever conceded defeat to anyone or admitted to being wrong about anything here.
I'm sorry if that seemed scummy, but you must realise I was only hitting back at the same thing. You can't expect to position yourself with such arrogant authority and not see a bold challenge. You discounted my empathy directly and harshly, and you don't really have the intellectual authority to do so, so I responded in kind.
Still friends! lol

Of course still friends (I think we've both admitted to getting facts wrong - I know I have. But yeah, we are both strong in our developed opinions; I never understood why anyone expects others to just change their minds about strongly held opinions because they haven't been confronted with new info that makes them change their views significantly - isn't that pretty wishy-washy?).
But really..... I just think the way you speak about these issues is harmful to the cause. It's the language that really does maintain hurtful stigmas, and that keeps people from seeking help. I feel like you lack an understanding because of the way you seem to be choosing to address or discuss, in a way that I think really ends up hurting people. Yet you seem to think it's helpful somehow.

I don't think it's helpful or hurtful. It's just a discussion on the PJ forum.
I do worry that discourse on the subject is verging into coddling territory, but discourse on a subject and dealing with people in real life aren't the same. I don't go around in life coldly and clinically informing people I love and respect that they are making bad choices and they know it. I treat PEOPLE with respect, no matter what, but I won't suffer bullshit idly on the internet, and these topics are ripe with bullshit.
Starvation mode LOL

Oh, see I think everything that's said online necessarily becomes a part of the larger discussion. That's what social media does. It takes what rgambs says on a message board and what Joe Blow says on Facebook and what Suzy Smith says on Twitter, and all that becomes a part of the the discourse. I think you're undervaluing the impact of what's said about issues like this online. For instance, what about the people with mental illnesses here on these boards? I'm sure that saying "suck it up" could be hurtful to them in some way, or might make them feel worse about themselves, or will make them ashamed to bring their problem to someone else because they think they are just weak and "not sucking it up". You're not in your own little bubble here. What you say affects other people sometimes, even on the PJ forums, because real people in real life are engaging on social media. Geez, for some people, social media is the ONLY place they really engage. What they see there can have a HUGE impact on their lives or how they think about things.

what dreams · February 2019

I've suffered from mental illness my entire life. And I understand tough love. As a teacher, I dole it out on a regular basis and respond to the push-back every single time.
What bothers me most after reading this article -- and considering my own mother's experience -- is that people are going to doctors to ask for help with a medical problem, and they are being sent out into the wilderness to cope on their own, in some cases after being insulted profoundly. The diet industry is completely fucked up, full of false promises and products or practices that make people sicker. All I'm saying is that the medical system, the food system, everyone can do better to treat a disease that is draining our economy and ruining people's lives. I don't understand what's so disagreeable or controversial about that.

PJ_Soul · February 2019

what dreams said:

I've suffered from mental illness my entire life. And I understand tough love. As a teacher, I dole it out on a regular basis and respond to the push-back every single time.
What bothers me most after reading this article -- and considering my own mother's experience -- is that people are going to doctors to ask for help with a medical problem, and they are being sent out into the wilderness to cope on their own, in some cases after being insulted profoundly. The diet industry is completely fucked up, full of false promises and products or practices that make people sicker. All I'm saying is that the medical system, the food system, everyone can do better to treat a disease that is draining our economy and ruining people's lives. I don't understand what's so disagreeable or controversial about that.

I agree, and yeah, I have had appalling things said to by doctors on this subject - some of them seem even more ignorant about mental illness than the general public seems to be, and way more judgemental too. For someone who is struggling with mental health, that kind of treatment from a doctor who they are seeking help from can be absolutely devastating, and really could be the literal difference between life and death for that patient. And those doctors apparently couldn't care less.

what dreams · February 2019

Because I'm still just stupefied that rgambs said above that the article " isn't full of science. It mentions one outdated study," I went back and checked to make sure he and I read the same article. I counted all the links. 35 links. I clicked on every single one of them to check the source. The vast majority link to current peer-reviewed science journals (the oldest I recall was 2008). I scanned the credentials of the authors. Yale. UCLA. University of Hawaii. US Institute of Health. Etc. A few links led to articles in general interest magazines to support points about societal trends. Ironically, the one study that rgambs called "an outdated study" isn't linked at all. That disappoints me, so I plan to research the assertion about metabolism more fully to verify its truth. Rgambs's proof to dispute the claim about metabolism? A personal anecdote. I offered my opening anecdote as a personal reflection in response to a thoroughly researched science report on the state of obesity treatment in America. I did not offer it as proof in a dispute of facts about the medical profession. Maybe someone has done some scientific research on willpower -- how it eludes almost every single one of us, skinny or fat. I would like to read that research. Please share.

what dreams · February 2019

PJ_Soul said:

what dreams said:

I've suffered from mental illness my entire life. And I understand tough love. As a teacher, I dole it out on a regular basis and respond to the push-back every single time.
What bothers me most after reading this article -- and considering my own mother's experience -- is that people are going to doctors to ask for help with a medical problem, and they are being sent out into the wilderness to cope on their own, in some cases after being insulted profoundly. The diet industry is completely fucked up, full of false promises and products or practices that make people sicker. All I'm saying is that the medical system, the food system, everyone can do better to treat a disease that is draining our economy and ruining people's lives. I don't understand what's so disagreeable or controversial about that.

I agree, and yeah, I have had appalling things said to by doctors on this subject - some of them seem even more ignorant about mental illness than the general public seems to be, and way more judgemental too. For someone who is struggling with mental health, that kind of treatment from a doctor who they are seeking help from can be absolutely devastating, and really could be the literal difference between life and death for that patient. And those doctors apparently couldn't care less.

Scarier still in the poor treatment of mental illness is that these doctors can misdiagnose and/or prescribe harmful dosages of dangerous medicines without any talk therapy at all. Then the follow-up is 15 minutes of "medication management" every three months. That unfortunately happened to me. I wasn't correctly diagnosed with bipolar disorder until I was 35 after my third breakdown when I went to a psychiatrist who did a thorough 90-minute interview delving into the minutiae of my symptoms. My initial diagnosis at 21 was depression and generalized anxiety disorder. The treatment with anti-depressants actually exacerbated the mania, which nobody ever recognized prior because they either never spent time with me or they never asked. I just thought I was just going through these highly productive and creative periods after fighting the depressive episodes, and the consequences (other than a lot of fucking debt) were actually advantageous to my career.
In another note, in 2011, I finally went to a doctor after feeling like crap for a very long time, bringing a specific list of nine symptoms that just weren't right. Two of those included unexplained weight gain (20 pounds in 2 months) and being unable to get it off (2 years of WILLPOWER). Physical exam was the typical rush job, blood work revealed nothing. "Everything looks good. See you next year." A week later I went to a dermatologist for my annual skin check, and she noticed a lump in my neck. She sent me back to the doctor who fucking missed it in spite of checking the lymph nodes in my neck! An ultrasound and biopsy later, I was diagnosed with malignant thyroid cancer. If I hadn't by coincidence seen the dermatologist in the same summer, I would have gone another year or maybe even more with undiagnosed cancer. The nine symptoms I initially presented to the doctor were ALL classic thyroid cancer symptoms and the word thyroid never even came out of her mouth.
I don't trust any of them anymore.

Meltdown99 · February 2019

I just wish those people who have cancer and heart disease and other ailments just suck it up...

Thirty Bills Unpaid · February 2019

Meltdown99 said:

I just wish those people who have cancer and heart disease and other ailments just suck it up...

Not even close to the same thing.

Are people apologists for obesity right now? Is this what I'm getting from reading the last few pages of this thread?

rgambs · February 2019

Meltdown99 said:

I just wish those people who have cancer and heart disease and other ailments just suck it up...

They do, every day that they keep on fighting and keep on living. Life ain't easy, it sucks. Gotta suck it up when it sucks.

That doesn't mean don't get treatment, it means don't make excuses and do the hard work to get better to whatever capacity you can. We can all do much better than we think, every time you think you are at 100% capacity/effort, you are wrong.
Not everyone can win every battle, but you suck it up and you keep fighting.

mace1229 · February 2019

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Meltdown99 said:

I just wish those people who have cancer and heart disease and other ailments just suck it up...

Not even close to the same thing.

Are people apologists for obesity right now? Is this what I'm getting from reading the last few pages of this thread?

Sort of what it sounds like.
I don't know if this was intended, but it almost sounds like obesity itself is a mental disorder. It isn't.
I agree there can be genetic/mental factors. But that is going to be in the minority. Culture and discipline are the biggest factors when it comes to America's obesity problems. Pretending otherwise isn't going to help anyone. Something like 1/3 of Americans are significantly overweight. And then look at our culture and eating habits as a country. Those 2 aren't linked?

HughFreakingDillon · February 2019

mace1229 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Meltdown99 said:

I just wish those people who have cancer and heart disease and other ailments just suck it up...

Not even close to the same thing.

Are people apologists for obesity right now? Is this what I'm getting from reading the last few pages of this thread?

Sort of what it sounds like.
I don't know if this was intended, but it almost sounds like obesity itself is a mental disorder. It isn't.
I agree there can be genetic/mental factors. But that is going to be in the minority. Culture and discipline are the biggest factors when it comes to America's obesity problems. Pretending otherwise isn't going to help anyone. Something like 1/3 of Americans are significantly overweight. And then look at our culture and eating habits as a country. Those 2 aren't linked?

it can, however, be a by-product of mental illness. self-satiation in the form of alcohol, drugs, food, consumerism in general for that instant high, however one gets it.

my mental illness onset and significant weight gain happened at the same time. while there are also other factors at play (aging, metabolism, activity), there is no question many of my bad habits contributing to my weight can be traced back to my illness.

rgambs · February 2019

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Meltdown99 said:

I just wish those people who have cancer and heart disease and other ailments just suck it up...

Not even close to the same thing.

Are people apologists for obesity right now? Is this what I'm getting from reading the last few pages of this thread?

Sort of what it sounds like.
I don't know if this was intended, but it almost sounds like obesity itself is a mental disorder. It isn't.
I agree there can be genetic/mental factors. But that is going to be in the minority. Culture and discipline are the biggest factors when it comes to America's obesity problems. Pretending otherwise isn't going to help anyone. Something like 1/3 of Americans are significantly overweight. And then look at our culture and eating habits as a country. Those 2 aren't linked?

it can, however, be a by-product of mental illness. self-satiation in the form of alcohol, drugs, food, consumerism in general for that instant high, however one gets it.

my mental illness onset and significant weight gain happened at the same time. while there are also other factors at play (aging, metabolism, activity), there is no question many of my bad habits contributing to my weight can be traced back to my illness.

Definitely a factor, and I would say that if a person has the food addiction required to hit high levels of obesity, then there are certainly psychological issues at play.
Our culture fosters deep unhappiness that manifests in many ways, that's for sure.

HesCalledDyer · February 2019

My aunt had a heart transplant in her 30s. The way her body reacted to it and the medications she had to take, she ended up having thyroid problems and gained a bunch of weight. She was skinny all her life up until then. She ate healthy, exercised as much as she could muster, but only gained or maintained. I know she was an anomaly and doesn't represent 99% of obese people, so there is no need to jump down my throat with a bunch of counter arguments. Just understand that some people simply do NOT have the ability.

The same goes for mental health. It is a chemical imbalance in the brain. Some folks just don't have the capacity to get up out of bed and go about their day. It's ignorant to think otherwise. I have been lucky that I do have that mental fortitude to keep going, so it is even hard for me to understand at times why some people can't just "suck it up," but I try to understand. The fact is that they simply can't do it. It's not that they don't want to. No one wants to have mental illness and not have the capacity to go about their day and "deal with it." If it were just about sucking it up, mental illness wouldn't exist. Suicide and addiction would be eradicated. Some have the ability to deal with life, some have it less than others, some more, some just don't have it.

mace1229 · February 2019

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Meltdown99 said:

I just wish those people who have cancer and heart disease and other ailments just suck it up...

Not even close to the same thing.

Are people apologists for obesity right now? Is this what I'm getting from reading the last few pages of this thread?

Sort of what it sounds like.
I don't know if this was intended, but it almost sounds like obesity itself is a mental disorder. It isn't.
I agree there can be genetic/mental factors. But that is going to be in the minority. Culture and discipline are the biggest factors when it comes to America's obesity problems. Pretending otherwise isn't going to help anyone. Something like 1/3 of Americans are significantly overweight. And then look at our culture and eating habits as a country. Those 2 aren't linked?

it can, however, be a by-product of mental illness. self-satiation in the form of alcohol, drugs, food, consumerism in general for that instant high, however one gets it.

my mental illness onset and significant weight gain happened at the same time. while there are also other factors at play (aging, metabolism, activity), there is no question many of my bad habits contributing to my weight can be traced back to my illness.

It definitely can be.
I just don't think that is the biggest factor. Bad eating habits and culture exist without any sort of disorder. It just sounded like obesity was some sort of protected class based on mental illness, and its not. For the majority of people, obesity is a list of conscious life-ling decisions.

'TWO BIG PIGS': Rude woman kicked off flight after fat-shaming meltdown

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