MLB 2025 Season

igotid88 said:

HesCalledDyer said:

Yeah, I get using them a scouting report (as I believe they are intended), but it shouldn't be your every decision maker.  A computer spits out numbers, its up to us to figure out how to interpret those numbers and what to do with them.  Control the metrics, don't let the metrics control you.

it goes way beyond scouting reports. There's spin rates, launch angles, rotations on a pitch. Not believing in giving up outs. They'd rather you strike out than bunt a guy over. So many things we're not thinking about. It's more than "this guy can't hit lefties".

HesCalledDyer said:

igotid88 said:

HesCalledDyer said:

Yeah, I get using them a scouting report (as I believe they are intended), but it shouldn't be your every decision maker.  A computer spits out numbers, its up to us to figure out how to interpret those numbers and what to do with them.  Control the metrics, don't let the metrics control you.

it goes way beyond scouting reports. There's spin rates, launch angles, rotations on a pitch. Not believing in giving up outs. They'd rather you strike out than bunt a guy over. So many things we're not thinking about. It's more than "this guy can't hit lefties".

All of that stuff can be used in batting practice to help hitters adjust.  It shouldn't be the end all, be all of an in-game decision like it's some holy grail. Pitch clocks aren't gonna help speed the game up when every manager is bringing in a new pitcher for every batter because "metrics say blah blah blah." 

tempo_n_groove said:

pjhawks said:

tempo_n_groove said:

pjhawks said:

tempo_n_groove said:

pjhawks said:

cutz said:

tempo_n_groove said:

cutz said:

tempo_n_groove said:

cutz said:

tempo_n_groove said:

I unearthed this little gem too

In 2001, following his retirement, the New York Daily News' columnist Bill Madden wrote:

"Sorry, there'll be no words of sympathy here for Albert Belle. He was a surly jerk before he got hurt and now he's a hurt surly jerk....He was no credit to the game. Belle's boorish behavior should be remembered by every member of the Baseball Writers' Associationwhen it comes time to consider him for the Hall of Fame."

And that's why he's not in the HOF(which is BS), because based on  his numbers he's a HOFer. Steve Carlton & Jim Rice weren't all warm & fuzzy with reporters. 

He doesn't have the numbers to be IN the HOF.

Hall worthy numbers?

Hits? 1700, nope.
HR? 381, nope.
Runs?  974, nope.
SB?  88, nope.  Vince Coleman had more his rookie year...

What stats does he have that places him in the HOF?  It really is becoming the Hall pf Good with thinking like this.

For a batter you need to have 3000 or 500 as numbers.  If not you'd better have a whole bunch of RBI's and Runs...  All of which Mr.Belle did not.

So, Craig Biggio was better then Albert Belle? I loved Biggio, but he was a compiler. He's a prime example of when  3,000 hits in a career doesn't belong in then HOF. Biggio is a prime example of someone who belongs in the Hall Of Very Good. Albert Belle only played 12 years(which hurt his chances at compiling more stats), but in 10 of those years he was a dominant player. In his last season he had 23 HR's & 103 RBI's. Ask John Hart who was the most feared hitter on those Tribe teams and he'll tell you it was Albert Belle, and that's when the Tribe had Jim Thome, Manny Ramierez, etc.

Belle's Stats (He averaged, for his  career, based on a 162 games  .295   40 HR   130 RBI's) >Probably  a few players in the HOF who do NOT have those averages?

                           G   PA   AB   R    H         2B 3B   HR   RBI    SB   CS     BB       SO     AVG.     OBP       SLG   OPS   OPS+   TB        

162 Game Avg. 162 703 616 103 182       41  2    40   130       9    4        72      101     .295       .369      .564 .    933     144     347 

Check out his stats and notice he has a lot of Bold print:    https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/belleal01.shtml

Trust me i'm no Albert Belle , or a Tribe fan, but he's a HOFer for me.   

Biggio is a perfect example, thank you.

Biggio has the Modern Major League Record for HBP just 2 shy of the record.

Had 3000 hits.

Had 400+ SB's, 600 plus dbls, is 15th all time in runs.  The other 14 above him are or will be in the HOF and the other 14 below him are or will be in the HOF.

He also won 4GG.

He belongs in.

Belle's career was cut short but does not belong in, sorry...  Longevity maters in Baseball unless you're Sandy Koufax.

Yes, Biggio is a good example ...of a compiler. How many Stats did he lead during a season? HBP? Okay, i guess. He lead in Runs a couple of years, 2B's 3 years , & SB one year. No other stats of signifcance.  Biggio's high in RBI's is 88(he averaged 67RBI/season). He wasn't a dominant player.

I gave you Belles stats, and yes his career was only 12 years, but he was dominant for 10 of those years. That equals a HOFer to me.

Agree with you here.  If you were never one of the top 10 or so players in your league at any time in your career I don't think you belong in the Hall of Fame.  Biggio was very good but at no point was he really considered one of the best players in his league.  For Hall of Fame a few dominant years means more to me than a long career piling up stats.  

Biggio was in the top 10 for MVP voting 3 times and an All-Star 7 times.

Again with thinking like that you'd have some killer players with short bursts.  

Baseball is about stats.  They all mean something, so if you hit one of those milestones you will be going to the HOF.

I also think Palmiero, Clemens, Bonds, McGwire and A-Rod should be in too.

Like Sandy Koufax.  so yes killer bursts deserve consideration. Would you rather have 7 great seasons or 13 good ones?  To me a burst of greatness is better than a longevity of good seasons.  

Koufax is the ONLY player with that few good seasons to get in the HOF.  He had 6 years?

Dimaggio only played 13 years but Belle isn't Dimaggio, not by a long shot.

The only other players that get in the HOF with insignificant numbers is by the Veterans Committee or whatever it is now.  They vote in a bunch of players that should not get in like Ashburn and Irvin...

Good players but not great.

I think Belle was good but not HOF material...

If you don't look at just the numbers do you think Craig Biggio was a better player than Albert Belle, Don Mattingly, Will Clark, Ryan Howard?  I don't

I do. Over time.  Better fielder sans Mattingly.  Better base stealer.  Gritty player.  The 4 you mentioned weren't gritty.

Wobbie said:

will clark > don mattingly.

Cliffy6745 said:

Wobbie said:

tempo_n_groove said:

pjhawks said:

tempo_n_groove said:

pjhawks said:

tempo_n_groove said:

pjhawks said:

cutz said:

tempo_n_groove said:

cutz said:

tempo_n_groove said:

cutz said:

tempo_n_groove said:

I unearthed this little gem too

In 2001, following his retirement, the New York Daily News' columnist Bill Madden wrote:

"Sorry, there'll be no words of sympathy here for Albert Belle. He was a surly jerk before he got hurt and now he's a hurt surly jerk....He was no credit to the game. Belle's boorish behavior should be remembered by every member of the Baseball Writers' Associationwhen it comes time to consider him for the Hall of Fame."

And that's why he's not in the HOF(which is BS), because based on  his numbers he's a HOFer. Steve Carlton & Jim Rice weren't all warm & fuzzy with reporters. 

He doesn't have the numbers to be IN the HOF.

Hall worthy numbers?

Hits? 1700, nope.
HR? 381, nope.
Runs?  974, nope.
SB?  88, nope.  Vince Coleman had more his rookie year...

What stats does he have that places him in the HOF?  It really is becoming the Hall pf Good with thinking like this.

For a batter you need to have 3000 or 500 as numbers.  If not you'd better have a whole bunch of RBI's and Runs...  All of which Mr.Belle did not.

So, Craig Biggio was better then Albert Belle? I loved Biggio, but he was a compiler. He's a prime example of when  3,000 hits in a career doesn't belong in then HOF. Biggio is a prime example of someone who belongs in the Hall Of Very Good. Albert Belle only played 12 years(which hurt his chances at compiling more stats), but in 10 of those years he was a dominant player. In his last season he had 23 HR's & 103 RBI's. Ask John Hart who was the most feared hitter on those Tribe teams and he'll tell you it was Albert Belle, and that's when the Tribe had Jim Thome, Manny Ramierez, etc.

Belle's Stats (He averaged, for his  career, based on a 162 games  .295   40 HR   130 RBI's) >Probably  a few players in the HOF who do NOT have those averages?

                           G   PA   AB   R    H         2B 3B   HR   RBI    SB   CS     BB       SO     AVG.     OBP       SLG   OPS   OPS+   TB        

162 Game Avg. 162 703 616 103 182       41  2    40   130       9    4        72      101     .295       .369      .564 .    933     144     347 

Check out his stats and notice he has a lot of Bold print:    https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/belleal01.shtml

Trust me i'm no Albert Belle , or a Tribe fan, but he's a HOFer for me.   

Biggio is a perfect example, thank you.

Biggio has the Modern Major League Record for HBP just 2 shy of the record.

Had 3000 hits.

Had 400+ SB's, 600 plus dbls, is 15th all time in runs.  The other 14 above him are or will be in the HOF and the other 14 below him are or will be in the HOF.

He also won 4GG.

He belongs in.

Belle's career was cut short but does not belong in, sorry...  Longevity maters in Baseball unless you're Sandy Koufax.

Yes, Biggio is a good example ...of a compiler. How many Stats did he lead during a season? HBP? Okay, i guess. He lead in Runs a couple of years, 2B's 3 years , & SB one year. No other stats of signifcance.  Biggio's high in RBI's is 88(he averaged 67RBI/season). He wasn't a dominant player.

I gave you Belles stats, and yes his career was only 12 years, but he was dominant for 10 of those years. That equals a HOFer to me.

Agree with you here.  If you were never one of the top 10 or so players in your league at any time in your career I don't think you belong in the Hall of Fame.  Biggio was very good but at no point was he really considered one of the best players in his league.  For Hall of Fame a few dominant years means more to me than a long career piling up stats.  

Biggio was in the top 10 for MVP voting 3 times and an All-Star 7 times.

Again with thinking like that you'd have some killer players with short bursts.  

Baseball is about stats.  They all mean something, so if you hit one of those milestones you will be going to the HOF.

I also think Palmiero, Clemens, Bonds, McGwire and A-Rod should be in too.

Like Sandy Koufax.  so yes killer bursts deserve consideration. Would you rather have 7 great seasons or 13 good ones?  To me a burst of greatness is better than a longevity of good seasons.  

Koufax is the ONLY player with that few good seasons to get in the HOF.  He had 6 years?

Dimaggio only played 13 years but Belle isn't Dimaggio, not by a long shot.

The only other players that get in the HOF with insignificant numbers is by the Veterans Committee or whatever it is now.  They vote in a bunch of players that should not get in like Ashburn and Irvin...

Good players but not great.

I think Belle was good but not HOF material...

If you don't look at just the numbers do you think Craig Biggio was a better player than Albert Belle, Don Mattingly, Will Clark, Ryan Howard?  I don't

I do. Over time.  Better fielder sans Mattingly.  Better base stealer.  Gritty player.  The 4 you mentioned weren't gritty.

WHAAAAAAAAT?????? The Neuschler was the epitome of grit! he might not be  HOFer, but don’t you dare question his “grit.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadspin.com/379815/will-clark-is-a-cackling-douche/amp

tempo_n_groove said:

cutz said:

tempo_n_groove said:

cutz said:

tempo_n_groove said:

cutz said:

You don't think ther are players in the HOF who may have played 15-18 years, but only had 7-10 HOF worthy seasons?

That Damon Stat was meant to be silly and to prove a point when you mentioned Biggio's runs scored.

Maybe Don Baylor & Ron Hunt should be in the HOF for all of the HBP they had in their careers>LOL

Not sure exactly how that Algebra WAR Stat works, but does it take in account for base running and defense? Well, Biggio's OPS+ is 112 and Belle's OPS+ is 144 (100 is average from what  i was told as i don't fully understand that Algebra stat either>LOL>But i thought i throw it out ther)

Biggio won GG and had more stolen bases by far than Belle.

Belles OPS should be higher because he had more xtra base hits and is based on On Base and Slugging.  I would expect that.

WAR is Wins Above Replacement.  It's how valuable a player is to a team. It accounts into everything.  It shows the players all around worth.  It's not an end all be all stat but when you look at other all-time greats it makes you see who is who.

What else did Baylor do?

WTH is Ron Hunt?

SB?>"Yawn"    Arlie Latham(yes i had to look him up) is 7th All time in stolen bases and is not in the HOF

WAR is not a concrete stat? Doesn't seem like it is to me.

Baylor mention was a joke because you bought up Biggio's HBP. Same as Ron Hunt who is in the top 10 All time for HBP and probably should be in the HOF>LOL

I'll ask again: You don't think a player who averaged for 12 seasons,  .295 AVG.  40 HR  & 130 RBI's is HOF worthy? 

Answered in order:

I like the SB.  I always have.  It can be very exciting in a game.  Guess you aren't a fan? And again just because that guy is 7th doesn't make him a HOFer.  You are taking things way out of context for the sake of your argument.

You aren't sold on WAR, that's fine.  Just research it a little bit.  Report back.  I did say it is NOT an end all be all but it is impressive.

Again you take a person that did only 1 thing in the stat column and want to lump them in with everyone else for the sake of your argument and that doesn't work.  It's the body of work.  A career.

No.  One is because he didn't avg 40 hr.  If he did he'd have finished w 480 hr not the 380 he actually has.  So you read a stat wrong somewhere.  He avg 31 a year.  If he did have 480 that would be something completely different.

You have to have numbers to back up being let in to the HOF.

Look he was a beast but he isn't Hall worthy...

I like a stolen base if it means something for that game(getting into scoring position). 

Don't think i said i wasn't sold on WAR. Think i said i wasn't sure how WAR Stat works and is not a concrete stat.  Is WAR a judgement stat? 

That mention of Don Baylor & Ron Hunt  was a joke(even said so and with a LOL). And, not arguing. Just discussing. 

I fucked up and forgot to post those numbers for Belle was based on a 162 game Average. Well, considering Belle was a full-time player for 10 full seasons brings that HR avg. to 38 HR/season. RBI's still close to 140. Still a career .295 Avg.  Think those numbers back Belle up to be in the HOF? 

10 years of great does not equal the HOF...  I would put Canseco in if that were the case. First 40/40 man and all.

cutz said:

tempo_n_groove said:

cutz said:

tempo_n_groove said:

cutz said:

tempo_n_groove said:

cutz said:

You don't think ther are players in the HOF who may have played 15-18 years, but only had 7-10 HOF worthy seasons?

That Damon Stat was meant to be silly and to prove a point when you mentioned Biggio's runs scored.

Maybe Don Baylor & Ron Hunt should be in the HOF for all of the HBP they had in their careers>LOL

Not sure exactly how that Algebra WAR Stat works, but does it take in account for base running and defense? Well, Biggio's OPS+ is 112 and Belle's OPS+ is 144 (100 is average from what  i was told as i don't fully understand that Algebra stat either>LOL>But i thought i throw it out ther)

Biggio won GG and had more stolen bases by far than Belle.

Belles OPS should be higher because he had more xtra base hits and is based on On Base and Slugging.  I would expect that.

WAR is Wins Above Replacement.  It's how valuable a player is to a team. It accounts into everything.  It shows the players all around worth.  It's not an end all be all stat but when you look at other all-time greats it makes you see who is who.

What else did Baylor do?

WTH is Ron Hunt?

SB?>"Yawn"    Arlie Latham(yes i had to look him up) is 7th All time in stolen bases and is not in the HOF

WAR is not a concrete stat? Doesn't seem like it is to me.

Baylor mention was a joke because you bought up Biggio's HBP. Same as Ron Hunt who is in the top 10 All time for HBP and probably should be in the HOF>LOL

I'll ask again: You don't think a player who averaged for 12 seasons,  .295 AVG.  40 HR  & 130 RBI's is HOF worthy? 

Answered in order:

I like the SB.  I always have.  It can be very exciting in a game.  Guess you aren't a fan? And again just because that guy is 7th doesn't make him a HOFer.  You are taking things way out of context for the sake of your argument.

You aren't sold on WAR, that's fine.  Just research it a little bit.  Report back.  I did say it is NOT an end all be all but it is impressive.

Again you take a person that did only 1 thing in the stat column and want to lump them in with everyone else for the sake of your argument and that doesn't work.  It's the body of work.  A career.

No.  One is because he didn't avg 40 hr.  If he did he'd have finished w 480 hr not the 380 he actually has.  So you read a stat wrong somewhere.  He avg 31 a year.  If he did have 480 that would be something completely different.

You have to have numbers to back up being let in to the HOF.

Look he was a beast but he isn't Hall worthy...

I like a stolen base if it means something for that game(getting into scoring position). 

Don't think i said i wasn't sold on WAR. Think i said i wasn't sure how WAR Stat works and is not a concrete stat.  Is WAR a judgement stat? 

That mention of Don Baylor & Ron Hunt  was a joke(even said so and with a LOL). And, not arguing. Just discussing. 

I fucked up and forgot to post those numbers for Belle was based on a 162 game Average. Well, considering Belle was a full-time player for 10 full seasons brings that HR avg. to 38 HR/season. RBI's still close to 140. Still a career .295 Avg.  Think those numbers back Belle up to be in the HOF? 

10 years of great does not equal the HOF...  I would put Canseco in if that were the case. First 40/40 man and all.

Does Kirby Puckett belong in the HOF?