the original point stands, however, about the difference in gun violence. but hey, hit an american with stats they don't like and suddenly it's "not comparable" because of relative numbers.
then you hit them with comparable numbers and it's suddenly "not comparable" because of demographics.
then you hit them with comparable demographics and it's suddenly "not comparable" because of culture.
and so on and so forth.
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
Sweden’s far right-wing party blames the government’s liberal immigration policy for the rising crime, and will thrust the issue to the fore in the fall campaign.
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
"Swedens middle class" - what is it with the US and always/only focusing on this "middle class". NO ONE in Sweden has ever talked or written about gang violence in relations to (only) "the middle class". Gang violence and regular citizens? Yes. But the US and this fixation on the "middle class"
But yes we do have hand grenades here being smuggled from the Balkan. And yes we do have problems with gangs in certain areas. But what country hasn't?
"Varby Gard has produced a street gang, the Varby Gard Network, which the police have been monitoring for two years. It is led by a Tunisian man and populated by first- and second-generation immigrants from Finland, the Balkans and Africa, said Lars Broms, a detective who is investigating Mr. Zuniga’s death. Intent on protecting its monopoly on the local drug trade, it is fluid and loosely organized, but like other suburban gangs in Sweden, it is developing quickly, he said.
“Give them 20 years, and we’ll have the same as in L.A.,” Mr. Broms said."
Twenty years and were like the US. Better act quickly -- More smorgasbord, ombudsman, fika and less violence.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
I believe i recently read that most immigrants in Sweden are refugees or from impoverished and/or war torn countries
And this is causing issues within the country socially, culturally, and politically... and is causing a rise of their far right in politics... is that accurate Chaos?
USA isnt the only country with problems and dark forces at work folks
I believe i recently read that most immigrants in Sweden are refugees or from impoverished and/or war torn countries
And this is causing issues within the country socially, culturally, and politically... and is causing a rise of their far right in politics... is that accurate Chaos?
USA isnt the only country with problems and dark forces at work folks
no one claimed it was.
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
Why do all the people outside the us like to point out anything and everything that is wrong with the u.s.? Is it because it is a common bond between all of you? The way some of you talk about the United States you would think we are living in North Korea. Yeah we have problems but all countries have problems. Yet some of you have zero issues visiting us to see pj play live.
Why do all the people outside the us like to point out anything and everything that is wrong with the u.s.? Is it because it is a common bond between all of you? The way some of you talk about the United States you would think we are living in North Korea. Yeah we have problems but all countries have problems.
because we have family there and don't want them caught in the crossfire because of your precious right to bear arms.
people in the US like to paint their country as the greatest on the planet, and when someone disagrees, all of sudden we're picking on you. you can't have it both ways.
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
I believe i recently read that most immigrants in Sweden are refugees or from impoverished and/or war torn countries
And this is causing issues within the country socially, culturally, and politically... and is causing a rise of their far right in politics... is that accurate Chaos?
USA isnt the only country with problems and dark forces at work folks
Ill answer later,. Running from work to a concert with swedish singer/songwriter Jenny Almsenius now. Hopefully I don't have to dodge grenades or wild boar!
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
I believe i recently read that most immigrants in Sweden are refugees or from impoverished and/or war torn countries
And this is causing issues within the country socially, culturally, and politically... and is causing a rise of their far right in politics... is that accurate Chaos?
USA isnt the only country with problems and dark forces at work folks
Ill answer later,. Running from work to a concert with swedish singer/songwriter Jenny Almsenius now. Hopefully I don't have to dodge grenades or wild boar!
if sweden is anything like the US, they won't stop the grenade problem, they'll just mandate all kids wear helmets to school.
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
Why do all the people outside the us like to point out anything and everything that is wrong with the u.s.? Is it because it is a common bond between all of you? The way some of you talk about the United States you would think we are living in North Korea. Yeah we have problems but all countries have problems.
because we have family there and don't want them caught in the crossfire because of your precious right to bear arms.
people in the US like to paint their country as the greatest on the planet, and when someone disagrees, all of sudden we're picking on you. you can't have it both ways.
AAAH got ya. It s like being a yankee fan. I understand. And where do your relatives live? Is there noticeable gun violence there?
the original point stands, however, about the difference in gun violence. but hey, hit an american with stats they don't like and suddenly it's "not comparable" because of relative numbers.
then you hit them with comparable numbers and it's suddenly "not comparable" because of demographics.
then you hit them with comparable demographics and it's suddenly "not comparable" because of culture.
and so on and so forth.
Question, do you think that if the laws in Sweden were exactly the same as in the US that the firearm violence rate would be as high as the US? I don’t think so, because I believe there are a ton of other factors involved that deferentiate the two countries. Is that elementary enough for you? apples and oranges
I haven't been reading the last several pages, but I know you have all been discussing the whole "he's white" thing re Katz..... I'll mention I did notice one thing about the reaction to the shooting on social media.... When a non-white shooter does it, the majority of the FB reactions are the angry face. When a white shooter does it the majority of the FB reactions are the sad face. I think that's telling, or as telling as tens of thousands of random FB reactions can be.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I believe i recently read that most immigrants in Sweden are refugees or from impoverished and/or war torn countries
And this is causing issues within the country socially, culturally, and politically... and is causing a rise of their far right in politics... is that accurate Chaos?
USA isnt the only country with problems and dark forces at work folks
Ill answer later,. Running from work to a concert with swedish singer/songwriter Jenny Almsenius now. Hopefully I don't have to dodge grenades or wild boar!
if sweden is anything like the US, they won't stop the grenade problem, they'll just mandate all kids wear helmets to school.
In Sweden, the annual rate of all gun deaths per 100,000 population is 2015: 1.60
In the United States, the annual rate of all gun deaths per 100,000 population is 2015: 11.30
LAND OF THE FREE
Well, I guess if I ever want to be broke, live in a society with little cultural diversity, never go hunting, get stuck in a triage any time I visit the doctor, I will move to Sweden...Not packing my bags quite yet. Until then, yes, I will enjoy my American freedom.
Why would you be broke? What do you work with - executing death penalties, sewing ku klux klan-costumes or a coal mining startup? maybe you will have a problem finding those kind of jobs, but the good thing is that if you are unemployed you get economic aid.
What kind of cultural diversity do you have that impact your life, that we lack?
Why would you not be hunting? Roughly 3% of Swedens population have a "hunting permit". You do know large areas of our country is covered in forests?
I don't know what "triage" means. Does it mean paying $100.000 if you need care after an heart attack? Or is that the US system?
what he means here by triage is basically you've been seen by a nurse, lying on a bed somewhere, sometimes in a hallway, waiting a long time to see a doctor.
Sometimes you have to wait. Like in most countries. It could be better. Like with all things.
But it must be better to have to sometime wait but survive, then to die? Sweden, in saving patients is in this study 4th place - the US, what place do they have? Not a good sign for people coming in with gun wounds.
I'm not sure if it's a live vs die comparison, rather a wait (Sweden/Canada) vs go bankrupt (US) scenario.
I'd rather wait for a few hours than have to remortgage my house.
Really only those who go bankrupt are those without insurance. I hate our system, so I'm not saying its great. But no one with insurance pays 100k in medical bills. Most plans have a max out of pocket in the 5-10k range (meaning after 5k the insurance pays for all the bills), and hospitals will work with you to pay that off in installments if needed. My biggest complaint is with our cost of monthly premiums, everything should be free. We could probably run socialized medicine with just the cost of our premiums, and not have to pay $3,000 for a hospital visit on top of that.
This is simply not true. 60% of all bankruptcies are due to medical expenses. Out of pocket medical expenses cause many, many bankruptcies. Sure, you might be able to get on a $100/mo payment plan for your $2000 bill, but good luck getting them to OK that sort of payment plan when your out of pocket expenses are >$100,000. Depending on policies, exclusions, policy limitations, etc... even with insurance your out of pocket maximum according to the policy may not be your true out of pocket, since that out of pocket is only for covered issues. People go into credit card debt trying to pay medical bills. A couple 65 years or older can expect to incur $275,000 in medical expenses during retirement. Tough on a fixed income. I've known of 1 couple, elderly, who divorced when one of them got cancer simply to protect their spouse from having to assume medical expense debt after they die. What a shitty way to spend twilight years. Numbers are hard to pin down but estimates were showing 250,00 - >600,000 people every year in the US file bankruptcy due to medical expenses. There is no way that anyone can claim, by any measure, that the US has anything but abysmal health care. From patient outcomes to infant mortality rates to bankruptcy, this country has no idea how to properly do health care. It is a giant sham perpetrated by the insurance companies and hospital systems, and lawmakers who are owned by said insurance companies and hospital systems.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I just read an article yesterday about someone who paid for insurance and still ended up having to pay $105K in medical bills because he had a heart attack. But insurance or no insurance, it's a fucking crime against humanity.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
the original point stands, however, about the difference in gun violence. but hey, hit an american with stats they don't like and suddenly it's "not comparable" because of relative numbers.
then you hit them with comparable numbers and it's suddenly "not comparable" because of demographics.
then you hit them with comparable demographics and it's suddenly "not comparable" because of culture.
and so on and so forth.
Question, do you think that if the laws in Sweden were exactly the same as in the US that the firearm violence rate would be as high as the US? I don’t think so, because I believe there are a ton of other factors involved that deferentiate the two countries. Is that elementary enough for you? apples and oranges
probably not, since swedes aren't known for shooting someone in the face over a parking spot at walmart.
enjoy your apples.
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
In Sweden, the annual rate of all gun deaths per 100,000 population is 2015: 1.60
In the United States, the annual rate of all gun deaths per 100,000 population is 2015: 11.30
LAND OF THE FREE
Well, I guess if I ever want to be broke, live in a society with little cultural diversity, never go hunting, get stuck in a triage any time I visit the doctor, I will move to Sweden...Not packing my bags quite yet. Until then, yes, I will enjoy my American freedom.
not to mention live longer, and have a 55% LESS CHANCE OF DYING IN INFANCY. pay 50% less for housing, and 40% less for child care.
yeah, what a shithole country. LOL
I didn’t say it was a “shithole country”. I actually love many aspects of Sweden. I just am not in a race to pack my bags and move there quite yet. I think I would feel a bit too “governed” in Sweden. Not to mention, I like a variety in my cross country road trips. Sweden would be better compared to a single state in the US than the whole country, culturally and population wise.
I know you didn't, I was using your president's terminology.
I was amazed at the infant death thing. Like, why do so many infants die in the US? that number is staggering.
"too governed"? I have this feeling that a lot of americans feel free simply because they are told they are, not because it's fact. if by "governed" you mean that there are more services available for everyone to enjoy, then yes, I suppose that might be the case. But I don't know if you'd necessarily "feel" it. You (in general) might bitch about your taxes, but I'm of the line of thinking that I'd be more than happy to pay more taxes if it meant my community was stronger, more people could afford to live comfortably, etc.
I'm not looking for a communist state by any means, but if more money is put into the pool to elevate everyone and not just the rich, I'm all for it.
Yeah, the "too governed" thing is a crock. Given their litigious nature, American society has rules upon regulations upon bylaws. I feel far more free, and demonstrably am more free, when traveling or living in Europe than in the US.
I would say that “freedom” is subjective to everyone’s individual interpretations. There are way more opportunities to choose the course of your life and “follow your dreams” in the US than in Sweden.
Ah yes.
The 'American Dream' corporations have sold to the people: all this can be yours!
Capitalists saw how effective religions were attracting people to their way of thinking by promising things that seem so damn awesome. They developed their own mantra and the people fell in line.
The only people realizing the 'American Dream' in America these days are the people born into one.
Then why do so many people flock here if not for better opportunities than they have elsewhere?
Convenience.
The country next to a cartel ravaged country is America. That makes America a very attractive to people looking for a safe and normal life.
Lol, okay then...
Are you serious with this response?
Do you think Mexican people (and Central/South American for that matter) are leaving their countries for the US because they simply pursue a change of pace... or maybe a fatter piece of the pie? And that they leave everything behind because the US is so welcoming and there is very little risk?
Wow. No wonder Trump got elected.
There's very little opportunity in Mexico. In many situations, young men can get a job at an all-inclusive serving fat Americans, join an ill-equipped military or an under-funded police force... or they can join a cartel and buy cars, carry pistols and date young women.
Young families that do not want that future for their young sons give up everything they own to seek a better life for their children. They do so on foot and they hike to the nearest country that might be able to afford them this: that's the US... who, coincidentally, fuels the drug trade in Mexico by comprising the bulk of the consumer base (contributing at least in part to the social epidemic Mexico currently endures).
Most immigrants are of Asian decent as my2hands pointed out...
Documented. But every country has their share of documented immigrants. That poingest Hispanic people are enduring what they are enduring because they wish to pursue the American dream. They are doing so out of necessity and desperation.
But they aren’t seeking a better life and opportunities, got it.
Not in the way you were asserting (the US and all its awesomeness is drawing people away from their home countries).
That was your own projection, we were just comparing the US and Sweden...
Well come on... you were doing the "USA" chant.
I'll put it to rest. In good conscience I have to anyways- the outside is beckoning me and I've killed enough time procrastinating and drinking coffee.
You’ve got it wrong, but have a great day outside regardless! I’m stuck working indoors today :(
Why do all the people outside the us like to point out anything and everything that is wrong with the u.s.? Is it because it is a common bond between all of you? The way some of you talk about the United States you would think we are living in North Korea. Yeah we have problems but all countries have problems.
because we have family there and don't want them caught in the crossfire because of your precious right to bear arms.
people in the US like to paint their country as the greatest on the planet, and when someone disagrees, all of sudden we're picking on you. you can't have it both ways.
AAAH got ya. It s like being a yankee fan. I understand. And where do your relatives live? Is there noticeable gun violence there?
wisconsin and texas. the cousin in texas is a teacher, which scares the shit out of me every time I see another headline with "school shooting" in it.
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
I haven't been reading the last several pages, but I know you have all been discussing the whole "he's white" thing re Katz..... I'll mention I did notice one thing about the reaction to the shooting on social media.... When a non-white shooter does it, the majority of the FB reactions are the angry face. When a white shooter does it the majority of the FB reactions are the sad face. I think that's telling, or as telling as tens of thousands of random FB reactions can be.
This could be an interesting study into the inherent racism of people that put reactions on posts on Facebook . It would probably be best to distinguish whether or not there is a specific demographic that posts these reactions. If I were still taking my sociology research and methods class, this would have been a good essay. Regardless, this is an interesting observation and I will be paying more attention now. On another note, it seems like the primary demographic for people that post comments on Facebook are people that cannot spell worth a shit (not sure if that could be labeled a demographic though, lol)
And let us not forget these details, seeing how the NRA has been awfully quiet. But you know, when the head of the organization was intimately involved in Iran-Contra and understands how money is moved and received for nefarious purposes, it really isn't surprising.
The NRA spent $30 million dollars on Trump’s campaign in 2016 and another $40 million in various efforts to lobby and help elect Republicans. Much of this spending was dark money, making it difficult to trace the source and how it was spent.
Follow the money, from Russia with love and a PTape(s), all the way to impeachment.
In Sweden, the annual rate of all gun deaths per 100,000 population is 2015: 1.60
In the United States, the annual rate of all gun deaths per 100,000 population is 2015: 11.30
LAND OF THE FREE
Well, I guess if I ever want to be broke, live in a society with little cultural diversity, never go hunting, get stuck in a triage any time I visit the doctor, I will move to Sweden...Not packing my bags quite yet. Until then, yes, I will enjoy my American freedom.
not to mention live longer, and have a 55% LESS CHANCE OF DYING IN INFANCY. pay 50% less for housing, and 40% less for child care.
yeah, what a shithole country. LOL
I didn’t say it was a “shithole country”. I actually love many aspects of Sweden. I just am not in a race to pack my bags and move there quite yet. I think I would feel a bit too “governed” in Sweden. Not to mention, I like a variety in my cross country road trips. Sweden would be better compared to a single state in the US than the whole country, culturally and population wise.
I know you didn't, I was using your president's terminology.
I was amazed at the infant death thing. Like, why do so many infants die in the US? that number is staggering.
"too governed"? I have this feeling that a lot of americans feel free simply because they are told they are, not because it's fact. if by "governed" you mean that there are more services available for everyone to enjoy, then yes, I suppose that might be the case. But I don't know if you'd necessarily "feel" it. You (in general) might bitch about your taxes, but I'm of the line of thinking that I'd be more than happy to pay more taxes if it meant my community was stronger, more people could afford to live comfortably, etc.
I'm not looking for a communist state by any means, but if more money is put into the pool to elevate everyone and not just the rich, I'm all for it.
Yeah, the "too governed" thing is a crock. Given their litigious nature, American society has rules upon regulations upon bylaws. I feel far more free, and demonstrably am more free, when traveling or living in Europe than in the US.
I would say that “freedom” is subjective to everyone’s individual interpretations. There are way more opportunities to choose the course of your life and “follow your dreams” in the US than in Sweden.
Ah yes.
The 'American Dream' corporations have sold to the people: all this can be yours!
Capitalists saw how effective religions were attracting people to their way of thinking by promising things that seem so damn awesome. They developed their own mantra and the people fell in line.
The only people realizing the 'American Dream' in America these days are the people born into one.
Then why do so many people flock here if not for better opportunities than they have elsewhere?
Convenience.
The country next to a cartel ravaged country is America. That makes America a very attractive to people looking for a safe and normal life.
Lol, okay then...
Are you serious with this response?
Do you think Mexican people (and Central/South American for that matter) are leaving their countries for the US because they simply pursue a change of pace... or maybe a fatter piece of the pie? And that they leave everything behind because the US is so welcoming and there is very little risk?
Wow. No wonder Trump got elected.
There's very little opportunity in Mexico. In many situations, young men can get a job at an all-inclusive serving fat Americans, join an ill-equipped military or an under-funded police force... or they can join a cartel and buy cars, carry pistols and date young women.
Young families that do not want that future for their young sons give up everything they own to seek a better life for their children. They do so on foot and they hike to the nearest country that might be able to afford them this: that's the US... who, coincidentally, fuels the drug trade in Mexico by comprising the bulk of the consumer base (contributing at least in part to the social epidemic Mexico currently endures).
Most immigrants are of Asian decent as my2hands pointed out...
Actually, he didn’t say “most”. Immigrants from Asian counties are increasing but don’t yet make up most, as Mexico and Cuba still make up about 50% of immigrants, as of 2016
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
I believe i recently read that most immigrants in Sweden are refugees or from impoverished and/or war torn countries
And this is causing issues within the country socially, culturally, and politically... and is causing a rise of their far right in politics... is that accurate Chaos?
USA isnt the only country with problems and dark forces at work folks
These were the biggest countries (where immigrants were born) in 2017 (notice a trend with countries the US has been bombing):
During the biggest refugee crisis since WW2 - caused by the USA according to your president - over 160.000 people looked for asylum in Sweden. This, with a population of 10 million people. The "far-right" racist party (The Swedish Democrats) had already started to get bigger in Sweden when this happend, but it gave them fuel obviously. How many people did the US help, from this crisis created by you guys - according to your own president?
The Swedish Demcrats got 13% of the vote in 2014, they are at 18-19 % in the polls for the upcoming election which makes them the second biggest party after the Social Democrats . 2010 was the first year they got into the parliament with 5% of the vote. So yes, just like the US racism has grown (or become more visible and accepted).
At the same, the Left Party which are an opposite and what I will be voting for has in the polls 9,5% compared to 5,6% in 2014.
And no one has said anything about dark forces being solely an US construct.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
As someone who has never had a gun pulled on them but had a baseball bat and knife pulled on me (thrice) and my wife mugged with a knife.... I would say there are bigger worries that strictly the guns in the US. I am about root cause analysis and despise the simplistic take everything away that could harm me mentality. Bubble suits, no cars, no planes, etc. for everyone. It is your choice to live in fear....not mine.
As someone who has never had a gun pulled on them but had a baseball bat and knife pulled on me (thrice) and my wife mugged with a knife.... I would say there are bigger worries that strictly the guns in the US. I am about root cause analysis and despise the simplistic take everything away that could harm me mentality. Bubble suits, no cars, no planes, etc. for everyone. It is your choice to live in fear....not mine.
But i mean... still...
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Comments
then you hit them with comparable numbers and it's suddenly "not comparable" because of demographics.
then you hit them with comparable demographics and it's suddenly "not comparable" because of culture.
and so on and so forth.
Sweden’s far right-wing party blames the government’s liberal immigration policy for the rising crime, and will thrust the issue to the fore in the fall campaign.
But yes we do have hand grenades here being smuggled from the Balkan. And yes we do have problems with gangs in certain areas. But what country hasn't?
"Varby Gard has produced a street gang, the Varby Gard Network, which the police have been monitoring for two years. It is led by a Tunisian man and populated by first- and second-generation immigrants from Finland, the Balkans and Africa, said Lars Broms, a detective who is investigating Mr. Zuniga’s death. Intent on protecting its monopoly on the local drug trade, it is fluid and loosely organized, but like other suburban gangs in Sweden, it is developing quickly, he said.
“Give them 20 years, and we’ll have the same as in L.A.,” Mr. Broms said."
Twenty years and were like the US. Better act quickly -- More smorgasbord, ombudsman, fika and less violence.
And this is causing issues within the country socially, culturally, and politically... and is causing a rise of their far right in politics... is that accurate Chaos?
USA isnt the only country with problems and dark forces at work folks
people in the US like to paint their country as the greatest on the planet, and when someone disagrees, all of sudden we're picking on you. you can't have it both ways.
And where do your relatives live? Is there noticeable gun violence there?
I don’t think so, because I believe there are a ton of other factors involved that deferentiate the two countries. Is that elementary enough for you?
apples and oranges
Well played!!!
enjoy your apples.
You can get out later!
On another note, it seems like the primary demographic for people that post comments on Facebook are people that cannot spell worth a shit (not sure if that could be labeled a demographic though, lol)
Man accused of shooting at female drivers held 'dim view of women': Deputy - ABC News https://apple.news/A3-cQ0KQRSfeBprO7yWopbw
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
https://www.newsweek.com/robert-mueller-nra-russia-tax-returns-1004008
https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article214075459.html
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/06/the-nra-spent-dollar30-million-to-elect-trump-was-it-russian-money
https://newrepublic.com/minutes/148961/evidence-emerges-nras-russia-connection
The NRA spent $30 million dollars on Trump’s campaign in 2016 and another $40 million in various efforts to lobby and help elect Republicans. Much of this spending was dark money, making it difficult to trace the source and how it was spent.
Follow the money, from Russia with love and a PTape(s), all the way to impeachment.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Interesting fact: 1/2 of worldwide gun deaths occur in only 6 countries, all in the Western Hemisphere
During the biggest refugee crisis since WW2 - caused by the USA according to your president - over 160.000 people looked for asylum in Sweden. This, with a population of 10 million people. The "far-right" racist party (The Swedish Democrats) had already started to get bigger in Sweden when this happend, but it gave them fuel obviously. How many people did the US help, from this crisis created by you guys - according to your own president?
The Swedish Demcrats got 13% of the vote in 2014, they are at 18-19 % in the polls for the upcoming election which makes them the second biggest party after the Social Democrats . 2010 was the first year they got into the parliament with 5% of the vote. So yes, just like the US racism has grown (or become more visible and accepted).
At the same, the Left Party which are an opposite and what I will be voting for has in the polls 9,5% compared to 5,6% in 2014.
And no one has said anything about dark forces being solely an US construct.
and despise the simplistic take everything away that could harm me mentality. Bubble suits, no cars, no planes, etc. for everyone. It is your choice to live in fear....not mine.
Lots Lots Lots of shows.....
2018 - Seattle 2/Missoula
Lots Lots Lots of shows.....
2018 - Seattle 2/Missoula