Report details sexual abuse by more than 300 priests in Pennsylvania's Catholic Church

PJ_Soul · August 2018

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

So why did you say you thought the vow of chastity is a factor in the pedo problem in the Church HFD??? If not what I'm saying, then what? Did you actually mean that celibacy leads to pedo horn doggedness or something??

yes, partially; as I stated, the vast majority of sexual crimes agains children are crimes of opportunity, not true pedophilia. so combine the fact that these guys are:

-celibate, and
-are often alone with and hold much influence over these kids which reduces the possibility of them getting caught

it's a powderkeg waiting to happen.

I think what needs to be clarified here is that it seems that most people believe that anyone who has ever molested a kid is a pedophile. that is simply not true. believe me, I was as sick about it as anyone when I found this out, knowing that there are people who do these things on a "whim". Makes me think twice about who I leave my daughters with.

I don't really get your main claim here. You are saying that only TWO PERCENT of everyone who molests/rapes children are actually pedophiles, and the rest are just taking the opportunity to get some??? Nope, I'm not buying that premise at all - that just doesn't make any sense. Even those who do it "on a whim" are often sexually turned on by the child, and that alone makes them a pedophile. I know about the power factor when it comes to these things, but even including that factor, I think there is no way in hell that almost everyone who does this is simply a horny asshole and not attracted to children sexually. That statistic just doesn't seem feasible to me - as rgambs says, I think there is something weird going on with the definition of pedophilia when considering that statistic. I'm not saying you didn't read this info btw. I'm just doubting the methods by which they arrived at this conclusion. But in any case, all the priests I've ever heard of accused of child molestation are serial offenders who use very well thought out methods to commit their crimes and cover it up and keep the child from talking, and they do so over and over for years .... That doesn't sound like a crime of opportunity to me in any case. So even if this weird stat is true under some limited definition of pedophilia, I don't think it would seem to apply to these serial child molester priests protected by the Church.

PJ_Soul · August 2018

HughFreakingDillon said:

if chastity wasn't part of the issue, then it would happen in other faiths. it simply does not. at least not to this degree, even when taking into account the relative numbers in different faiths.

Yes, that I completely agree with. People tend to forget to compare this issue to other faiths... doing so makes it clear that we have to focus on the the differences between those and how the Catholic faith has things set up for priests.

oftenreading · August 2018

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

if chastity wasn't part of the issue, then it would happen in other faiths. it simply does not. at least not to this degree, even when taking into account the relative numbers in different faiths.

Yes, that I completely agree with. People tend to forget to compare this issue to other faiths... doing so makes it clear that we have to focus on the the differences between those and how the Catholic faith has things set up for priests.

I wonder how much we know about abuse in other faith communities. I personally don’t know any data, but clearly sexual abuse exists in many other religious communities, as well as cults, and pretty much any other group that emphasizes belonging/loyalty to the group/exclusion of others, because it limits a vulnerable person’s ability to refuse or get away.

rgambs · August 2018

HughFreakingDillon said:

if chastity wasn't part of the issue, then it would happen in other faiths. it simply does not. at least not to this degree, even when taking into account the relative numbers in different faiths.

I don't think you can say that so definitively, there really isn't much evidence one way or the other because the Catholic Church is the only large centrally managed faith that has been look at so closely.
I'm actually seeing a lot of rumbling around the internet about evangelical churches facing a reckoning of their own on the subject soon.

Spiritual_Chaos · August 2018

What do people who study human sexuality say about this phenomenon? It must have been studied(?).

HughFreakingDillon · August 2018

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

if chastity wasn't part of the issue, then it would happen in other faiths. it simply does not. at least not to this degree, even when taking into account the relative numbers in different faiths.

I don't think you can say that so definitively, there really isn't much evidence one way or the other because the Catholic Church is the only large centrally managed faith that has been look at so closely.
I'm actually seeing a lot of rumbling around the internet about evangelical churches facing a reckoning of their own on the subject soon.

hundreds of priests have been accused. nearly zero ministers of other faiths have been, to my knowledge. until there is widespread accusations of clergy in other faiths, then I believe chastity to be at least part of it.

PJ_Soul · August 2018

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

if chastity wasn't part of the issue, then it would happen in other faiths. it simply does not. at least not to this degree, even when taking into account the relative numbers in different faiths.

I don't think you can say that so definitively, there really isn't much evidence one way or the other because the Catholic Church is the only large centrally managed faith that has been look at so closely.
I'm actually seeing a lot of rumbling around the internet about evangelical churches facing a reckoning of their own on the subject soon.

I'm positive that there is child molestation going on in other faiths (and then there are those fucking Mormon sects with the child marriage and shit), but I think there is no way it is at the level as it is in Catholicism just because if it were that rampant we'd most certainly know about it. The Catholic Church is the one that most capable of cover ups like this due to its political structure and power, and we still know how rampant it is.... No other denomination would be able to cover it up better IMHO.
Obviously most of this entire conversation is conjecture, theories based on logical assumptions, etc, but since this isn't a court of law, I see no problem with this.

HughFreakingDillon · August 2018

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

So why did you say you thought the vow of chastity is a factor in the pedo problem in the Church HFD??? If not what I'm saying, then what? Did you actually mean that celibacy leads to pedo horn doggedness or something??

yes, partially; as I stated, the vast majority of sexual crimes agains children are crimes of opportunity, not true pedophilia. so combine the fact that these guys are:

-celibate, and
-are often alone with and hold much influence over these kids which reduces the possibility of them getting caught

it's a powderkeg waiting to happen.

I think what needs to be clarified here is that it seems that most people believe that anyone who has ever molested a kid is a pedophile. that is simply not true. believe me, I was as sick about it as anyone when I found this out, knowing that there are people who do these things on a "whim". Makes me think twice about who I leave my daughters with.

I don't really get your main claim here. You are saying that only TWO PERCENT of everyone who molests/rapes children are actually pedophiles, and the rest are just taking the opportunity to get some??? Nope, I'm not buying that premise at all - that just doesn't make any sense. Even those who do it "on a whim" are often sexually turned on by the child, and that alone makes them a pedophile. I know about the power factor when it comes to these things, but even including that factor, I think there is no way in hell that almost everyone who does this is simply a horny asshole and not attracted to children sexually. That statistic just doesn't seem feasible to me - as rgambs says, I think there is something weird going on with the definition of pedophilia when considering that statistic. I'm not saying you didn't read this info btw. I'm just doubting the methods by which they arrived at this conclusion. But in any case, all the priests I've ever heard of accused of child molestation are serial offenders who use very well thought out methods to commit their crimes and cover it up and keep the child from talking, and they do so over and over for years .... That doesn't sound like a crime of opportunity to me in any case. So even if this weird stat is true under some limited definition of pedophilia, I don't think it would seem to apply to these serial child molester priests protected by the Church.

my claim here is more of a counter claim: I don't believe that the majority of molesting priests go into the priesthood specifically because they are or believe themselves to be sexual deviants. I'd like to see some type of data on that (which I doubt exists), not just any give person's version of logic.

well, these definitions come from experts in the field. I totally understand the hesitance to accept this, however, as when I was first told this, I didn't understand how a normal human being would just flip a switch and all of a sudden think it's normal to abuse a child because the opportunity arose. I still can't really wrap my head around it. All I'm saying is, that's the definition and people just toss around the word haphazardly.

again, I'd love to do more research on it, but no way in hell I'm doing that at work.

HughFreakingDillon · August 2018

Spiritual_Chaos said:

What do people who study human sexuality say about this phenomenon? It must have been studied(?).

but how do you study it without the participation of the perpetrators? I can't imagine any child-diddling priests would be interested in helping out the research.

Spiritual_Chaos · August 2018

HughFreakingDillon said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

What do people who study human sexuality say about this phenomenon? It must have been studied(?).

but how do you study it without the participation of the perpetrators? I can't imagine any child-diddling priests would be interested in helping out the research.

True. But there might be other ways.

Or at least theories about it, based on something else than "this is my gut feeling".

It is a disturbing and well known phenomena after all.

PJ_Soul · August 2018

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

So why did you say you thought the vow of chastity is a factor in the pedo problem in the Church HFD??? If not what I'm saying, then what? Did you actually mean that celibacy leads to pedo horn doggedness or something??

yes, partially; as I stated, the vast majority of sexual crimes agains children are crimes of opportunity, not true pedophilia. so combine the fact that these guys are:

-celibate, and
-are often alone with and hold much influence over these kids which reduces the possibility of them getting caught

it's a powderkeg waiting to happen.

I think what needs to be clarified here is that it seems that most people believe that anyone who has ever molested a kid is a pedophile. that is simply not true. believe me, I was as sick about it as anyone when I found this out, knowing that there are people who do these things on a "whim". Makes me think twice about who I leave my daughters with.

I don't really get your main claim here. You are saying that only TWO PERCENT of everyone who molests/rapes children are actually pedophiles, and the rest are just taking the opportunity to get some??? Nope, I'm not buying that premise at all - that just doesn't make any sense. Even those who do it "on a whim" are often sexually turned on by the child, and that alone makes them a pedophile. I know about the power factor when it comes to these things, but even including that factor, I think there is no way in hell that almost everyone who does this is simply a horny asshole and not attracted to children sexually. That statistic just doesn't seem feasible to me - as rgambs says, I think there is something weird going on with the definition of pedophilia when considering that statistic. I'm not saying you didn't read this info btw. I'm just doubting the methods by which they arrived at this conclusion. But in any case, all the priests I've ever heard of accused of child molestation are serial offenders who use very well thought out methods to commit their crimes and cover it up and keep the child from talking, and they do so over and over for years .... That doesn't sound like a crime of opportunity to me in any case. So even if this weird stat is true under some limited definition of pedophilia, I don't think it would seem to apply to these serial child molester priests protected by the Church.

my claim here is more of a counter claim: I don't believe that the majority of molesting priests go into the priesthood specifically because they are or believe themselves to be sexual deviants. I'd like to see some type of data on that (which I doubt exists), not just any give person's version of logic.

well, these definitions come from experts in the field. I totally understand the hesitance to accept this, however, as when I was first told this, I didn't understand how a normal human being would just flip a switch and all of a sudden think it's normal to abuse a child because the opportunity arose. I still can't really wrap my head around it. All I'm saying is, that's the definition and people just toss around the word haphazardly.

again, I'd love to do more research on it, but no way in hell I'm doing that at work.

If we were talking about one time assaults or something, I'd be more inclined to accept this theory as it pertains to priests, but within the Catholic Church it is just way too deliberate, planned, systematic, they're serial crimes, etc..... In any case, going back to my initial point I guess, I don't believe that these crimes committed by priests over decades can possibly be defined as crimes of opportunity - they're actions normally attributed to pedophiles in the traditional sense as far as I'm concerned... And given that, combined with the fact that the number of these crimes makes the priest population committing the acts makes it disproportionately common within the priesthood, tells me that pedophiles are indeed flocking (pun intended) to the Catholic priesthood for some reason, and if it's not the combo of escaping to God's will and setting up a position with lots of access to vulnerable victims, then I can't imagine what else it could be. It's not like it's just a coincidence obviously.

Yeah, no doubt, I'm not about to do any in depth research into the topic of pedophilia - next thing I know I'd be stopped at the border for my internet activity or something, lol.

jeffbr · August 2018

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

if chastity wasn't part of the issue, then it would happen in other faiths. it simply does not. at least not to this degree, even when taking into account the relative numbers in different faiths.

Yes, that I completely agree with. People tend to forget to compare this issue to other faiths... doing so makes it clear that we have to focus on the the differences between those and how the Catholic faith has things set up for priests.

I wonder how much we know about abuse in other faith communities. I personally don’t know any data, but clearly sexual abuse exists in many other religious communities, as well as cults, and pretty much any other group that emphasizes belonging/loyalty to the group/exclusion of others, because it limits a vulnerable person’s ability to refuse or get away.

The Mormons are dealing with something like this, although because of the lay nature of their priesthood, the abuse is not as systemic and institutionalized. The problem with the Mormon church is that they allow untrained laymen to reside over local parishes, and those leaders conduct one-on-one "worthiness" interviews with youth behind closed doors. They can ask all sorts of inappropriate and probing questions. And when abuse occurs, they have historically attempted to handle things internally rather than go to the authorities. This has led to a current uprising among some of the membership, and has one of the "resistance" leaders currently participating in a hunger strike in protest.
Here are a few recent (within a few months) articles:

Ex-LDS bishop starts hunger strike to protest ‘worthiness’ interviews; church responds

Arizona case shows why Mormon bishops are not reporting sex abuse to police every time. That has a prosecutor complaining about the church’s lawyers.

Woman Claims Mormon Church’s Cover-Up Culture Protected Her Sexual Predator Dad

Instructor at Mormon church sexually abused children as young as 2, Texas police say

Again, not as institutionalized and certainly not of the magnitude of the Catholic church, but disturbing nonetheless.

Spiritual_Chaos · August 2018

People should not be allowed to get close to kids. Have robots care for them until they're 18.

rgambs · August 2018

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

if chastity wasn't part of the issue, then it would happen in other faiths. it simply does not. at least not to this degree, even when taking into account the relative numbers in different faiths.

I don't think you can say that so definitively, there really isn't much evidence one way or the other because the Catholic Church is the only large centrally managed faith that has been look at so closely.
I'm actually seeing a lot of rumbling around the internet about evangelical churches facing a reckoning of their own on the subject soon.

I'm positive that there is child molestation going on in other faiths (and then there are those fucking Mormon sects with the child marriage and shit), but I think there is no way it is at the level as it is in Catholicism just because if it were that rampant we'd most certainly know about it. The Catholic Church is the one that most capable of cover ups like this due to its political structure and power, and we still know how rampant it is.... No other denomination would be able to cover it up better IMHO.
Obviously most of this entire conversation is conjecture, theories based on logical assumptions, etc, but since this isn't a court of law, I see no problem with this.

The thing is though, it's the bureaucratic nature of the Church that keeps getting them caught. They keep records of everything, and it's those records that bring them down.
Most Christian denominations (in America, at least) shuffle their clergy around to varying degrees, and that constant shuffle creates opportunity to commit abuse and get away with it. Without a central authority recording things, it very well could be that abuse is rampant but the disorganisation (and brainwashing) keep the dots from getting connected.
I also think that there are some special factors in the Catholic faith itself that "groom" children to be silent victims.
Surely celibacy exacerbates the issue and contributes, but I don't know if I can agree with it as a cause.

PJ_Soul · August 2018

Yeah, the LDS has always had problems too obviously - I see it all over the news a lot because of the whole Bountiful BC thing.

rgambs · August 2018

And I wonder is it their centralised, bureaucratic nature that has them under scrutiny? I think it's a factor.

PJ_Soul · August 2018

rgambs said:

And I wonder is it their centralised, bureaucratic nature that has them under scrutiny? I think it's a factor.

Who, LDS? Or the Catholic Church?

rgambs · August 2018

I was talking about LDS but of course CC as well.

PJ_Soul · August 2018

rgambs said:

I was talking about LDS but of course CC as well.

Well with LDS it's a much different beast because they have all these sects that have broken off from the main faith, and those sects are a source of a huge amount of the child abuse problem within the faith, so in a way it's due to a weird lack of centralization. And then there is the crap going in within the main faith... I'm not sure it's because of its kind of micro-centralization and bureaucratic nature, but I more think it's about the way the Mormon faith is so very insular. That is a faith where if you break away from the Church, all your loved ones literally excommunicate you, so that is a motive for silence of victims above and beyond what you find in the Catholic faith, and whatever sickos might be committing such crimes within the Mormon Church know it. But sure, Mormon elders have an insane amount of power and influence over everyone else in the Church, and of course they want to protect the Church from bad press, and will certainly do their damndest to cover up any scandals that make the Church look bad, and because of how insular they really are, I'm sure cover ups would have a fairly high chance of success. The Mormons have been persecuted since their inception, so the culture among Mormons in terms of hiding dark secrets is different than it is in Catholicism. Catholics tend to keep secrets because of guilt and shame (often deliberately manufactured by abusers). Mormons more keep secrets out of the sense that they must stay faithful to the community in the face of discrimination... They feel like they would be traitors to the Church if they talked.

josevolution · August 2018

As long as the guilty priests know they can be forgiven by repentance, boycotting the church for its non action on this issue is the only way ...

Report details sexual abuse by more than 300 priests in Pennsylvania's Catholic Church

Comments

Ex-LDS bishop starts hunger strike to protest ‘worthiness’ interviews; church responds

Arizona case shows why Mormon bishops are not reporting sex abuse to police every time. That has a prosecutor complaining about the church’s lawyers.

Woman Claims Mormon Church’s Cover-Up Culture Protected Her Sexual Predator Dad

Instructor at Mormon church sexually abused children as young as 2, Texas police say

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