Report details sexual abuse by more than 300 priests in Pennsylvania's Catholic Church

fife said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

just another reason that the chastity idea for priests is a bad idea all around. 

Not trying to be an asshole but I don't see how this post has anything to do with the story.  Do you really think that the reason these priest molested kids is because they can't have sex with adults? 

No, that's not why the chastity idea is a factor. It's because many sexual deviants, especially Catholic ones, suffer from a lot of guilt. So they are often attracted to the priesthood because they have to swear a vow of chastity, thinking that if they make that vow to God, God will help them resist their urges, and that their faith/vow will be enough to make them control themselves.... Obviously, that isn't the case. But that is what draws these sickos to the priesthood in the first place... Weirdly, it's their good intentions to stop that brings the sickness into the Church. If there was no vow of chastity, they would have no motivation to enter the priesthood in the first place.... This would, of course, still exist as pedophiles in the community.
There is also the factor of them entering the Church with much worse intentions of course - they know they'll have easier access to children and a means to control them. But that is the case for most denominations, and this problem is only a crisis in the Catholic Church, so that says a lot.

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

He's going to have to drop the whole vow of chastity thing for priests and allow women equal power in the Church to accomplish that, and he's not going to do either of those things.

while I agree the equal power thing is necessary, why specifically in the context of sexual abuse would that matter?

I meant that both have to go hand in hand as a single solution, but if you insist on separating them (I'd rather not), even that would help, simply because all-boys clubs tend to be far more corrupt and more into the "protect from within" in general. Plus, men simply conduct themselves differently in the sexual context when women are in the mix. Also, I just think it would make it a lot harder to get away with with a bunch of women around. I mean, the Church would be a COMPLETELY different animal if women had equal positions in it. No, I am not suggesting that that female pedos don't exist, if that's where your head went.
But the reason I don't like the separating that from the vow of chastity, is because that vow is, in my opinion, almost solely responsible for attracting so many pedophiles to the Church in the first place.

not sure where I was insisting on anything, but anyway......I've looked at this "attracting pedophiles" thing before, and I'm not convinced that all these men are classic cases of real pedophiles and more just horny men with an opportunity, which would be mostly curbed by just the chastity thing. I'm not sure the catholic church or religion in general would even exist if women had equal power in society from the beginning. I mean, what's the point of religion anyway if not to oppress?

female pedos are extremely rare, as far as I've read, so no, that's not where my head went. 

Maybe everyone know of this film - it won Oscars - but maybe someone missed it. Worth checking out:

PJ_Soul said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJ_Soul said:

fife said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

just another reason that the chastity idea for priests is a bad idea all around. 

Not trying to be an asshole but I don't see how this post has anything to do with the story.  Do you really think that the reason these priest molested kids is because they can't have sex with adults? 

No, that's not why the chastity idea is a factor. It's because many sexual deviants, especially Catholic ones, suffer from a lot of guilt. So they are often attracted to the priesthood because they have to swear a vow of chastity, thinking that if they make that vow to God, God will help them resist their urges, and that their faith/vow will be enough to make them control themselves.... 

Where does this info come from...

Many different places + logic.
This is a common point of discussion, I don't have any single source. It's just a theory in the debate- I happen to completely believe it. Others claim that the vow of chastity has nothing to do with it, but I don't believe that for a second. But this is why some claim that the vow is one of the causes (but I edited my post before I saw your question to make sure nobody thought I think this is the ONLY cause of the problem. It definitely is not. There are several factors that have come together to create this crisis. I strongly feel that the vow of chastity is one of them, and one of the reasons this problem isn't so massive in denominations that don't require it).

I can't help but think it also has something to do with the 'untouchability' of the Church. The Pope is basically Sarah Huckabee-Sanders to God, and people abandon their personal values based on what their invisible man/woman/elephant/whatever tells them to believe all the freaking time.

PJ_Soul said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJ_Soul said:

fife said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

just another reason that the chastity idea for priests is a bad idea all around. 

Not trying to be an asshole but I don't see how this post has anything to do with the story.  Do you really think that the reason these priest molested kids is because they can't have sex with adults? 

No, that's not why the chastity idea is a factor. It's because many sexual deviants, especially Catholic ones, suffer from a lot of guilt. So they are often attracted to the priesthood because they have to swear a vow of chastity, thinking that if they make that vow to God, God will help them resist their urges, and that their faith/vow will be enough to make them control themselves.... 

Where does this info come from...

Many different places + logic.
This is a common point of discussion, I don't have any single source. It's just a theory in the debate- I happen to completely believe it. Others claim that the vow of chastity has nothing to do with it, but I don't believe that for a second. But this is why some claim that the vow is one of the causes (but I edited my post before I saw your question to make sure nobody thought I think this is the ONLY cause of the problem. It definitely is not. There are several factors that have come together to create this crisis. I strongly feel that the vow of chastity is one of them, and one of the reasons this problem isn't so massive in denominations that don't require it).

this is a theory I have never heard, and frankly, I find a bit convoluted and more complex than it actually is. people become priests to stop being sexual deviants?? 

98% of sexual assaults/misconduct towards children is not TRUE pedophilia, it is a crime of opportunity. I highly doubt that the catholic church deviates from that very much, and never mind much, but you are positing it is the norm, which would swing it completely the other direction. I find that fairly unbelievable. 

Ledbetterman10 said:

Here's a write-up about all the abuse that Bishop Timlin of the Scranton diocese covered-up. As I stated earlier, this man gave me my "confirmation." And a picture exists of 12-year-old me kneeling before him as he blesses me or whatever. 

https://www.timesleader.com/news/715509/715509

I'm so sorry that you have memories where he was present. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJ_Soul said:

fife said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

just another reason that the chastity idea for priests is a bad idea all around. 

Not trying to be an asshole but I don't see how this post has anything to do with the story.  Do you really think that the reason these priest molested kids is because they can't have sex with adults? 

No, that's not why the chastity idea is a factor. It's because many sexual deviants, especially Catholic ones, suffer from a lot of guilt. So they are often attracted to the priesthood because they have to swear a vow of chastity, thinking that if they make that vow to God, God will help them resist their urges, and that their faith/vow will be enough to make them control themselves.... 

Where does this info come from...

Many different places + logic.
This is a common point of discussion, I don't have any single source. It's just a theory in the debate- I happen to completely believe it. Others claim that the vow of chastity has nothing to do with it, but I don't believe that for a second. But this is why some claim that the vow is one of the causes (but I edited my post before I saw your question to make sure nobody thought I think this is the ONLY cause of the problem. It definitely is not. There are several factors that have come together to create this crisis. I strongly feel that the vow of chastity is one of them, and one of the reasons this problem isn't so massive in denominations that don't require it).

this is a theory I have never heard, and frankly, I find a bit convoluted and more complex than it actually is. people become priests to stop being sexual deviants?? 

98% of sexual assaults/misconduct towards children is not TRUE pedophilia, it is a crime of opportunity. I highly doubt that the catholic church deviates from that very much, and never mind much, but you are positing it is the norm, which would swing it completely the other direction. I find that fairly unbelievable. 

I am not sure why you would assume that Church doesn't deviate from the rest of society very much. I don't think priests are representative of the wider population at all. The weirdo circumstances created by the Catholic Church's priesthood makes this problem utterly non-comparable to stats taken from regular society.

what you are suggesting is that people decide to become priests when they are sexually aware enough of their own deviancy and have come to the conclusion that taking the incredible step of going through a rigourous process of becoming a priest is their only logical step to being cured. 

I gotta say, PJ, this sounds totally absurd to me.  

Well I guess it would if you're phrasing or interpreting like that, lol.
But it makes perfect sense. I'm not suggesting these are just regular pedos off the street who suddenly turn to this option. I'm saying that those who are already devout Catholics and dealing with sexual deviancy may choose this option. Their entire attitude about their deviancy and sexuality in general is already rolled up into their religious faith, starting from childhood, so it isn't a leap at all to assume that some with deviancy would turn to the Church for a solution to it in this way.

PJ_Soul said:

So why did you say you thought the vow of chastity is a factor in the pedo problem in the Church HFD??? If not what I'm saying, then what? Did you actually mean that celibacy leads to pedo horn doggedness or something??

yes, partially; as I stated, the vast majority of sexual crimes agains children are crimes of opportunity, not true pedophilia. so combine the fact that these guys are:

-celibate, and
-are often alone with and hold much influence over these kids which reduces the possibility of them getting caught

it's a powderkeg waiting to happen. 

I think what needs to be clarified here is that it seems that most people believe that anyone who has ever molested a kid is a pedophile. that is simply not true. believe me, I was as sick about it as anyone when I found this out, knowing that there are people who do these things on a "whim". Makes me think twice about who I leave my daughters with. 

HFD, do you honestly think you could be horny enough to rape a child?  Do you think any of the men you know could get that horny?

And, where do you get this 98% of child sexual abuse isn't pedophilia?  A petty theft is a crime of opportunity, an organized and systematic effort to groom children for sexual abuse isn't a crime of opportunity.

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HFD, do you honestly think you could be horny enough to rape a child?  Do you think any of the men you know could get that horny?

And, where do you get this 98% of child sexual abuse isn't pedophilia?  A petty theft is a crime of opportunity, an organized and systematic effort to groom children for sexual abuse isn't a crime of opportunity.

gross. 

I don't want to do a google search at work, but I can tell you I have spoken to a few people in the justice system (on the prosecutorial side) who told me this, and backed it up. I was as surprised as anyone. 

From what I recall from reading in this area, I think you're correct. Most of these individuals would not test out as classic pedophiles in terms of arousal response, etc., if assessed forensically.