America's Gun Violence

PJPOWER · July 2018

cincybearcat said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

I don't believe that practicing and becoming proficient at all prevents gun rage/lame self defense claim incidents. I think any responsible gun owner has the potential to simply lose his temper during an altercation and shoot someone unjustifiably. The only way to reduce that risk is to require all gun owners, or at least those licensed to carry, to also attend extensive deescalation training and shit like that. If they don't, I have exactly ZERO faith that some well-trained gun-toting fella doesn't have the capacity to get involved in some kind of argument or fight that could and should be resolved without the use of a gun, lose his temper, and shoot his "opponent" out of frustration and anger (or even just pure 'fraidy-cat worry that he might get a skinned knee or a black eye), rather than out of legitimate fear for his own life.
Not that there is any chance of that kind of training to happen. Most police forces can't even manage to drill such valuable lessons into most of their recruits, so I don't expect gun tottin' Joe Schmoe to do any better this day and age.

Actually (here in TX anyway), the class to get a license to carry does involve learning to deescalate heated situations or avoid them all together and teaches that a firearm should only be used as a last resort. It also covers consequences of justified and negligent discharge of a firearm. I cannot speak to what other states or Canada teach. Your preconceptions about the majority of gun owners is just flat out false.

Oh yeah? So is it as rigorous as deescalation training is for cops? Because even with the training they get, many of them are not capable of deescalation when the time comes. Are these people given an extensive test to confirm that they are deescalation experts? Nope, I don't trust a random person carrying a gun to be completely responsible and completely risk free AT ALL. Without police or military level training, I don't trust people's tempers, and especially not the tempers of men who think open or concealed carry is a great idea, enough for that to matter. People knowing the consequences are no less dangerous than those who don't btw. That's why the death penalty is useless.
And this is not a "preconception about the majority of gun owners" on my part. This is a statement about my views on human nature in general.

Yeah, I disagree with all of the opinions that you just stated...So have a good day I guess and try not to be so paranoid...sounds like you have surrounded yourself with some very negative people to formulate such negative views of human nature in general.

I personally see some of this as very justified. Cops receive all sorts of training and still there are issues. We expect Johnny Guntoter to be better at dealing with these situations while packing heat? Why would that be?

You would be surprised at how very little firearm training police officers (that are not in some tactical unit) actually receive. They are usually some of the shittier shooters on the range. I used to help train police officers in deescalating situations when dealing with people with mental health problems...and just like any other human beings, some are better at it than others. Some people are just not able to control their anger and you’re right, they probably shouldn’t carry a gun around with them if that is the case. But I do not think that restricting the rights of people that do behave and are responsible as the route to go. Just my opinion.

PJPOWER · July 2018

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

I don't believe that practicing and becoming proficient at all prevents gun rage/lame self defense claim incidents. I think any responsible gun owner has the potential to simply lose his temper during an altercation and shoot someone unjustifiably. The only way to reduce that risk is to require all gun owners, or at least those licensed to carry, to also attend extensive deescalation training and shit like that. If they don't, I have exactly ZERO faith that some well-trained gun-toting fella doesn't have the capacity to get involved in some kind of argument or fight that could and should be resolved without the use of a gun, lose his temper, and shoot his "opponent" out of frustration and anger (or even just pure 'fraidy-cat worry that he might get a skinned knee or a black eye), rather than out of legitimate fear for his own life.
Not that there is any chance of that kind of training to happen. Most police forces can't even manage to drill such valuable lessons into most of their recruits, so I don't expect gun tottin' Joe Schmoe to do any better this day and age.

Actually (here in TX anyway), the class to get a license to carry does involve learning to deescalate heated situations or avoid them all together and teaches that a firearm should only be used as a last resort. It also covers consequences of justified and negligent discharge of a firearm. I cannot speak to what other states or Canada teach. Your preconceptions about the majority of gun owners is just flat out false.

Oh yeah? So is it as rigorous as deescalation training is for cops? Because even with the training they get, many of them are not capable of deescalation when the time comes. Are these people given an extensive test to confirm that they are deescalation experts? Nope, I don't trust a random person carrying a gun to be completely responsible and completely risk free AT ALL. Without police or military level training, I don't trust people's tempers, and especially not the tempers of men who think open or concealed carry is a great idea, enough for that to matter. People knowing the consequences are no less dangerous than those who don't btw. That's why the death penalty is useless.
And this is not a "preconception about the majority of gun owners" on my part. This is a statement about my views on human nature in general.

Yeah, I disagree with all of the opinions that you just stated...So have a good day I guess and try not to be so paranoid...sounds like you have surrounded yourself with some very negative people to formulate such negative views of human nature in general.

No, you've obviously completely misunderstood my perspective if that's your conclusion. I'm not a paranoid person at all. I would say that most people who conceal or open carry are paranoid though. Why else would they want to walk around packing heat? And I am not surrounded by negative people at all - that's kind of a silly comment. I have simply witnessed way too many people either in person or on the news who lose their tempers in times of aggravation and stress. This behaviour is the same reason bar fights and road rage incidents happen. If you don't think so, you're ignoring reality. Do you also leave your kids with strangers? I assume no. The reason you wouldn't is the exact same reason I don't just necessarily trust licensed gun owners who carry not to lose their temper and reach for their gun.

Fair enough...I think that not trusting others is primarily what motivates people to carry in the first place.

PJ_Soul · July 2018

But surely you're not claiming that the usual gun owner license training is better than the training even poorly trained cops get??? And how well they shoot is irrelevant to the conversation.
Sure, I understand the theory of not restricting the right of people who don't or won't lose their tempers just to prevent those who will from doing so... But you know that doesn't work logically, right? There is no adequate way to predict this behaviour, so there is no adequate way to prevent it without removing the deadly weapon from the equation.

PS - unless there is a link to factual information, I think we can all assume that everything we say on these boards is just our opinion.

PJ_Soul · July 2018

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

I don't believe that practicing and becoming proficient at all prevents gun rage/lame self defense claim incidents. I think any responsible gun owner has the potential to simply lose his temper during an altercation and shoot someone unjustifiably. The only way to reduce that risk is to require all gun owners, or at least those licensed to carry, to also attend extensive deescalation training and shit like that. If they don't, I have exactly ZERO faith that some well-trained gun-toting fella doesn't have the capacity to get involved in some kind of argument or fight that could and should be resolved without the use of a gun, lose his temper, and shoot his "opponent" out of frustration and anger (or even just pure 'fraidy-cat worry that he might get a skinned knee or a black eye), rather than out of legitimate fear for his own life.
Not that there is any chance of that kind of training to happen. Most police forces can't even manage to drill such valuable lessons into most of their recruits, so I don't expect gun tottin' Joe Schmoe to do any better this day and age.

Actually (here in TX anyway), the class to get a license to carry does involve learning to deescalate heated situations or avoid them all together and teaches that a firearm should only be used as a last resort. It also covers consequences of justified and negligent discharge of a firearm. I cannot speak to what other states or Canada teach. Your preconceptions about the majority of gun owners is just flat out false.

Oh yeah? So is it as rigorous as deescalation training is for cops? Because even with the training they get, many of them are not capable of deescalation when the time comes. Are these people given an extensive test to confirm that they are deescalation experts? Nope, I don't trust a random person carrying a gun to be completely responsible and completely risk free AT ALL. Without police or military level training, I don't trust people's tempers, and especially not the tempers of men who think open or concealed carry is a great idea, enough for that to matter. People knowing the consequences are no less dangerous than those who don't btw. That's why the death penalty is useless.
And this is not a "preconception about the majority of gun owners" on my part. This is a statement about my views on human nature in general.

Yeah, I disagree with all of the opinions that you just stated...So have a good day I guess and try not to be so paranoid...sounds like you have surrounded yourself with some very negative people to formulate such negative views of human nature in general.

No, you've obviously completely misunderstood my perspective if that's your conclusion. I'm not a paranoid person at all. I would say that most people who conceal or open carry are paranoid though. Why else would they want to walk around packing heat? And I am not surrounded by negative people at all - that's kind of a silly comment. I have simply witnessed way too many people either in person or on the news who lose their tempers in times of aggravation and stress. This behaviour is the same reason bar fights and road rage incidents happen. If you don't think so, you're ignoring reality. Do you also leave your kids with strangers? I assume no. The reason you wouldn't is the exact same reason I don't just necessarily trust licensed gun owners who carry not to lose their temper and reach for their gun.

Fair enough...I think that not trusting others is primarily what motivates people to carry in the first place.

Agreed, that's true for many ... and that is exactly the point at which innocent people start getting killed, and the reason I don't think people should be allowed to carry.

unsung · July 2018

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

unsung said:

Why are you scared of someone using their Rights?

Because those moronic rights open the door for awful behaviour that results in people getting hurt and dying.

I agree with My2hands... guys walking around with their guns in public are fools. And if I can be honest... to me it seems as if they are supplementing character weaknesses like confidence and strength.

One way or another... they're weak. Pure and simple.

I never said I would do it, I only carried concealed. But if I wanted to then nobody, cetainly no govt, should have the ability to stop me or anyone else.

unsung · July 2018

HesCalledDyer said:

unsung said:

Why are you scared of someone using their Rights?

Because people fucking die over this stupid ass "right." Over trivial fucking matters. Last thing I need is to fear going in public because I bumped into some asshole with an ego 100 times the size of his cock and he feels the need to shoot the fuck away at me because it's his raaht to bear awrmz.

Stop hiding behind the skirt of "It's my right." This is not what the founding fathers envisioned, and you know it! But go ahead, if it makes you feel like more of a man to have your sidearm strapped to you. By all fucking means bro, carry away. Just make sure the piece you carry is bigger than your dick.

This was pretty funny. Good times had by all.

PJ_Soul · July 2018

unsung said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

unsung said:

Why are you scared of someone using their Rights?

Because those moronic rights open the door for awful behaviour that results in people getting hurt and dying.

I agree with My2hands... guys walking around with their guns in public are fools. And if I can be honest... to me it seems as if they are supplementing character weaknesses like confidence and strength.

One way or another... they're weak. Pure and simple.

I never said I would do it, I only carried concealed. But if I wanted to then nobody, cetainly no govt, should have the ability to stop me or anyone else.

I wish somehow the emotions and thoughts of someone who lost their child or parent to a gun toting moron could be temporarily transplanted into your brain for a day - aka empathy - so that you could understand better.

PJPOWER · July 2018

PJ_Soul said:

But surely you're not claiming that the usual gun owner license training is better than the training even poorly trained cops get??? And how well they shoot is irrelevant to the conversation.
Sure, I understand the theory of not restricting the right of people who don't or won't lose their tempers just to prevent those who will from doing so... But you know that doesn't work logically, right? There is no adequate way to predict this behaviour, so there is no adequate way to prevent it without removing the deadly weapon from the equation.

PS - unless there is a link to factual information, I think we can all assume that everything we say on these boards is just our opinion.

I’m all about increasing the training requirements for everyone. I feel that if someone is responsible enough to pass an FBI background check and has no criminal record, then they should be deemed responsible enough to carry. If you are prone to bar fights...maybe not...

unsung · July 2018

PJ_Soul said:

unsung said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

unsung said:

Why are you scared of someone using their Rights?

Because those moronic rights open the door for awful behaviour that results in people getting hurt and dying.

I agree with My2hands... guys walking around with their guns in public are fools. And if I can be honest... to me it seems as if they are supplementing character weaknesses like confidence and strength.

One way or another... they're weak. Pure and simple.

I never said I would do it, I only carried concealed. But if I wanted to then nobody, cetainly no govt, should have the ability to stop me or anyone else.

I wish somehow the emotions and thoughts of someone who lost their child or parent to a gun toting moron could be temporarily transplanted into your brain for a day - aka empathy - so that you could understand better.

Maybe some woman who wanted a firearm but was denied by some bureaucrat and then got raped or killed has some thoughts to share on the subject.

CM189191 · July 2018

unsung said:

PJ_Soul said:

unsung said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

unsung said:

Why are you scared of someone using their Rights?

Because those moronic rights open the door for awful behaviour that results in people getting hurt and dying.

I agree with My2hands... guys walking around with their guns in public are fools. And if I can be honest... to me it seems as if they are supplementing character weaknesses like confidence and strength.

One way or another... they're weak. Pure and simple.

I never said I would do it, I only carried concealed. But if I wanted to then nobody, cetainly no govt, should have the ability to stop me or anyone else.

I wish somehow the emotions and thoughts of someone who lost their child or parent to a gun toting moron could be temporarily transplanted into your brain for a day - aka empathy - so that you could understand better.

Maybe some woman who wanted a firearm but was denied by some bureaucrat and then got raped or killed has some thoughts to share on the subject.

every crime that ever happened is because there are not enough guns

even imaginary ones

PJ_Soul · July 2018

unsung said:

PJ_Soul said:

unsung said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

unsung said:

Why are you scared of someone using their Rights?

Because those moronic rights open the door for awful behaviour that results in people getting hurt and dying.

I agree with My2hands... guys walking around with their guns in public are fools. And if I can be honest... to me it seems as if they are supplementing character weaknesses like confidence and strength.

One way or another... they're weak. Pure and simple.

I never said I would do it, I only carried concealed. But if I wanted to then nobody, cetainly no govt, should have the ability to stop me or anyone else.

I wish somehow the emotions and thoughts of someone who lost their child or parent to a gun toting moron could be temporarily transplanted into your brain for a day - aka empathy - so that you could understand better.

Maybe some woman who wanted a firearm but was denied by some bureaucrat and then got raped or killed has some thoughts to share on the subject.

When there are threads and news programs filled with stories about that happening so that such instances outweigh all the gun deaths, I will certainly pay attention to them.

tempo_n_groove · July 2018

Nobody cares that 3D printed guns will be available soon, huh?

Good talk...

PJ_Soul · July 2018

tempo_n_groove said:

Nobody cares that 3D printed guns will be available soon, huh?

Good talk...

Well I do... I just don't know what can be done about it, which leaves me with very little to say. I guess someone obviously needs to make 3D printing a gun completely illegal across the board, first of all. After that, what's to be done about prevention? I have wondered if there is a way to make 3D printers so that they simply can't print a gun or gun parts. Surely someone can figure out a program or something to make that possible? And to make a law around that that prevents any slippery slope issues? Of course the people making the 3D printers would have to be on top of that, and legally obligated to do it. I'm sure then hackers will find ways to get around it, but it would certainly be better than nothing.

PJPOWER · July 2018

tempo_n_groove said:

Nobody cares that 3D printed guns will be available soon, huh?

Good talk...

They have been available, but now the code to print them is going to be legal to distribute online. Guess we better ban 3D printers...

PJ_Soul · July 2018

PJPOWER said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Nobody cares that 3D printed guns will be available soon, huh?

Good talk...

They have been available, but now the code to print them is going to be legal to distribute online. Guess we better ban 3D printers...

That would be like banning all steel, aluminum, and plastic works as a means of gun control, lol.

PJPOWER · July 2018

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Nobody cares that 3D printed guns will be available soon, huh?

Good talk...

They have been available, but now the code to print them is going to be legal to distribute online. Guess we better ban 3D printers...

That would be like banning all steel, aluminum, and plastic works as a means of gun control, lol.

Exactly...would probably be an easier task than trying to ban guns, though, lol

tbergs · July 2018

tempo_n_groove said:

Nobody cares that 3D printed guns will be available soon, huh?

Good talk...

I read that yesterday and found it crazy and the next step in the underground gun culture completely taking off. Gun control will become much more difficult as the rise of the machines continues. All this talk about limiting AR-15's and mag sizes loses some significance, but is still important, at least at these initial stages.

From the article below:

Defense Distributed isn’t going to destroy gun control, and it’s certainly not going to decimate the gun industry. All of the legacy gun industry apparatus described above will still be there in the decades to come, mainly because governments will still buy their arms from established makers like LMT. But surrounding the government and civilian arms markets will be a brand new, homebrew, underground gun market where enthusiasts swap files on the dark web and test new firearms in their back yards.

The homebrew gun revolution won’t create a million untraceable guns so much as it’ll create a hundreds of thousands of Karl Lewises — solitary geniuses who had a good idea, prototyped it, began making it and selling it in small batches, and ended up supplying a global arms market with new technology and products.

In this respect, the future of guns looks a lot like the present of drugs. The dark web hasn’t hurt Big Pharma, much less destroyed it. Rather, it has expanded the reach of hobbyist drugmakers and small labs, and enabled a shadow world of pharmaceutical R&D that feeds transnational black and gray markets for everything from penis enlargement pills to synthetic opioids.

Gun control efforts in this new reality will initially focus more on ammunition. Background checks for ammo purchases will move to more states, as policy makers try to limit civilian access to weapons in a world where controlling the guns themselves is impossible.

https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/14/its-now-legal-to-distribute-schematics-for-3d-printed-guns-in-the-u-s-what-happens-next/

Thirty Bills Unpaid · July 2018

PJ_Soul said:

unsung said:

PJ_Soul said:

unsung said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

unsung said:

Why are you scared of someone using their Rights?

Because those moronic rights open the door for awful behaviour that results in people getting hurt and dying.

I agree with My2hands... guys walking around with their guns in public are fools. And if I can be honest... to me it seems as if they are supplementing character weaknesses like confidence and strength.

One way or another... they're weak. Pure and simple.

I never said I would do it, I only carried concealed. But if I wanted to then nobody, cetainly no govt, should have the ability to stop me or anyone else.

I wish somehow the emotions and thoughts of someone who lost their child or parent to a gun toting moron could be temporarily transplanted into your brain for a day - aka empathy - so that you could understand better.

Maybe some woman who wanted a firearm but was denied by some bureaucrat and then got raped or killed has some thoughts to share on the subject.

When there are threads and news programs filled with stories about that happening so that such instances outweigh all the gun deaths, I will certainly pay attention to them.

The two aren't even in the same hemisphere.

Again... a feeble reach by a side of a discussion that has no teeth to gnash with.

PJ_Soul · July 2018

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

unsung said:

PJ_Soul said:

unsung said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

unsung said:

Why are you scared of someone using their Rights?

Because those moronic rights open the door for awful behaviour that results in people getting hurt and dying.

I agree with My2hands... guys walking around with their guns in public are fools. And if I can be honest... to me it seems as if they are supplementing character weaknesses like confidence and strength.

One way or another... they're weak. Pure and simple.

I never said I would do it, I only carried concealed. But if I wanted to then nobody, cetainly no govt, should have the ability to stop me or anyone else.

I wish somehow the emotions and thoughts of someone who lost their child or parent to a gun toting moron could be temporarily transplanted into your brain for a day - aka empathy - so that you could understand better.

Maybe some woman who wanted a firearm but was denied by some bureaucrat and then got raped or killed has some thoughts to share on the subject.

When there are threads and news programs filled with stories about that happening so that such instances outweigh all the gun deaths, I will certainly pay attention to them.

The two aren't even in the same hemisphere.

Again... a feeble reach by a side of a discussion that has no teeth to gnash with.

Yep.

Halifax2TheMax · July 2018

tempo_n_groove said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

my2hands said:

All I know is I dont need some 23 year old clown strapped next to my mother and I while enjoying an omelette

He looked like a friggin moron, and I definitely did not feel safer in any way with Rambo Jr sitting there

Be afraid, be very, very afraid.

Remember the guy in Florida who was shot and killed by the “responsible” gun owner in the movie theater for talking on his cell phone during the previews? A CCW permit holder I believe. Everyday annoyances, who needs them?

Brandishing a weapon over an argument does not make him responsible...

The gun rights crowd wants you to believe that every legal gun buyer starts out as a "responsible" gun owner. Brandish? He shot and killed the guy. A retired police officer no less. Yup, more guns is definitely the solution. And for texting, not talking.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/01/14/262369211/absolutely-crazy-man-killed-in-movie-theater-for-texting

America's Gun Violence

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