America's Gun Violence

Halifax2TheMax said:

"Responsible," until they're not.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-hs-safe-gun-storage-20180221-story.html

The Hopkins researchers surveyed 1,444 gun owners in the United States about their storage practices and found that 54 percent didn’t put them in a safe place when not in use. The researchers defined safe storage as being in a locked gun safe, cabinet or case; locked into a gun rack, or stored with a trigger lock or other lock.

If that holds true to the current US population that owns guns, that's approximately 48 million "responsible" gun owners. But its not a propblem.

What number is "most?"

“This new research finds that gun owners who reported a gun safety training course influenced their gun storage practices were twice as likely to practice safe storage for all their guns, and gun owners who cited discussions with family members as influencing their decisions were 39 percent more likely to practice safe storage.

"It's encouraging to see the positive associations between safety training and reporting safe storage practices," said study co-author Daniel Webster, ScD, MPH, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research. "Requiring gun purchasers to take safety training classes, as a handful of states already do, might lead to more gun owners storing their guns safely."”

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180225184123.htm

I, and others, have stated that a gun safety course would help to increase safe storage practices...This research supports that, it would seem.  Seems like this little detail was pretty important not to have been mentioned by the Baltimore Sun...

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

josevolution said:

PJPOWER said:

my2hands said:

PJPOWER said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

OnWis97 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HesCalledDyer said:

dankind said:

My heart will never heal from this.

https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/997506332939956229

There aren't many things that can move me to tears out of sheer disappointment... but the first time I saw that clip, it was one of those moments.  Our children are growing up expecting to get shot in school.

I don't know how anyone can watch that and not admit we have a problem in this country.  And with the advent of the modern internet, the whole world is sitting there watching us do NOTHING to protect our kids, our citizens.

Here's more truth that's tough to digest: we are, Dyer... we are watching you do nothing to protect your kids. It's a gross case of negligence. 

We've been watching you guys do nothing for many years now. It really speaks to the soul of America: all the flags at half mast and all the thoughts and prayers are hollow and meaningless.

We have collectively decided that guns are like cars.  We value them to an extent that we accept that some people will be killed.  In both cases, we've chosen inadequate levels of preventing lax behavior that leads to danger.  In both cases, it's a culture that, while some have other ideas, the majority wouldn't give up under any circumstances and, therefore, accepts that some of us are going to parish.  The biggest difference is that  we are desensitized to automobile deaths.  But we are getting there with gun-related deaths.

No, actually, things would be a whole lot better if the US decided that guns were like cars, because the rate of deaths from cars has gone down sharply over the decades, while the rate of gun-related deaths has increased. Why? Because a whole lot of attention is paid to making automobiles safer, given that a certain percentage of their drivers will be insufficiently trained or attentive.  Engineers pour over methods to improve automobile safety, roads are redesigned to minimize crash risks, we require training and licensing, and there are stiff penalties if you misuse your automobile, including the risk of being suspended or completely barred from driving. The USA does virtually none of that for guns. 

Where are you getting your data from?  I realize this is a couple years old, but over the past few decades the gun death rate has actually decreased and pretty much plateaued.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/21/gun-homicides-steady-after-decline-in-90s-suicide-rate-edges-up/

Gun deaths are on the rise again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/us/gun-death-rates.html

Guns are a man made phenomenon and can absolutely be limited in production and distribution. To liken them to earthquakes is to buy in to the “nothing can be done” argument. Guns are not a force of nature. 

You completely missed the point of that sentence, but thanks for playing.  My concern is the rules that would have to go into place to limit production being a capitalist society and all.  
But the earthquake analogy was more in reference to situations where crazy people get the guns (regardless of laws) and try to shoot up a school.  There will most likely be more of those before any kind of real/effective “solutions” are implemented, so preparations for these scenarios are a key component to reducing mass casualties.

No, I'm fully aware of your point, which is to deflect attention away from what's obvious and confabulate a whole host of other potential reasons why the US might be such an outlier in gun deaths. 

PJPOWER said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJPOWER said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

"Responsible," until they're not.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-hs-safe-gun-storage-20180221-story.html

The Hopkins researchers surveyed 1,444 gun owners in the United States about their storage practices and found that 54 percent didn’t put them in a safe place when not in use. The researchers defined safe storage as being in a locked gun safe, cabinet or case; locked into a gun rack, or stored with a trigger lock or other lock.

If that holds true to the current US population that owns guns, that's approximately 48 million "responsible" gun owners. But its not a propblem.

What number is "most?"

Why did your article not mention this:

“This new research finds that gun owners who reported a gun safety training course influenced their gun storage practices were twice as likely to practice safe storage for all their guns, and gun owners who cited discussions with family members as influencing their decisions were 39 percent more likely to practice safe storage.

"It's encouraging to see the positive associations between safety training and reporting safe storage practices," said study co-author Daniel Webster, ScD, MPH, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research. "Requiring gun purchasers to take safety training classes, as a handful of states already do, might lead to more gun owners storing their guns safely."”

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180225184123.htm

I, and others, have stated that a gun safety course would help to increase safe storage practices...This research supports that, it would seem.  Seems like this little detail was pretty important not to have been mention by the Baltimore Sun.

I’m sure you’ll be petitioning your elected representatives in your state and federal government to make that a federal requirement to purchase a fire arm as well as call the NRA and let them know. The other 61% who don’t and should something happen with their firearm, do 5-10 years in prison.
 

I have actually written the Texas representatives encouraging more safety training.  As for the NRA, I am not a member, so I probably do not hold much weight. 
The NRA, however, is one of the only organizations that provide gun safety courses...so there is that.
And, sounds good, 5-10 years in prison if you do not store your firearm safely and someone uses it in a murder.

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJPOWER said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJPOWER said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

"Responsible," until they're not.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-hs-safe-gun-storage-20180221-story.html

The Hopkins researchers surveyed 1,444 gun owners in the United States about their storage practices and found that 54 percent didn’t put them in a safe place when not in use. The researchers defined safe storage as being in a locked gun safe, cabinet or case; locked into a gun rack, or stored with a trigger lock or other lock.

If that holds true to the current US population that owns guns, that's approximately 48 million "responsible" gun owners. But its not a propblem.

What number is "most?"

Why did your article not mention this:

“This new research finds that gun owners who reported a gun safety training course influenced their gun storage practices were twice as likely to practice safe storage for all their guns, and gun owners who cited discussions with family members as influencing their decisions were 39 percent more likely to practice safe storage.

"It's encouraging to see the positive associations between safety training and reporting safe storage practices," said study co-author Daniel Webster, ScD, MPH, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research. "Requiring gun purchasers to take safety training classes, as a handful of states already do, might lead to more gun owners storing their guns safely."”

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180225184123.htm

I, and others, have stated that a gun safety course would help to increase safe storage practices...This research supports that, it would seem.  Seems like this little detail was pretty important not to have been mention by the Baltimore Sun.

I’m sure you’ll be petitioning your elected representatives in your state and federal government to make that a federal requirement to purchase a fire arm as well as call the NRA and let them know. The other 61% who don’t and should something happen with their firearm, do 5-10 years in prison.
 

I have actually written the Texas representatives encouraging more safety training.  As for the NRA, I am not a member, so I probably do not hold much weight. 
The NRA, however, is one of the only organizations that provide gun safety courses...so there is that.
And, sounds good, 5-10 years in prison if you do not store your firearm safely and someone uses it in a murder.

How about if someone is just "responsible" with it? You know, like a tragedy? The six year old shoots the four year old?

my2hands said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

josevolution said:

PJPOWER said:

my2hands said:

PJPOWER said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

OnWis97 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HesCalledDyer said:

dankind said:

My heart will never heal from this.

https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/997506332939956229

There aren't many things that can move me to tears out of sheer disappointment... but the first time I saw that clip, it was one of those moments.  Our children are growing up expecting to get shot in school.

I don't know how anyone can watch that and not admit we have a problem in this country.  And with the advent of the modern internet, the whole world is sitting there watching us do NOTHING to protect our kids, our citizens.

Here's more truth that's tough to digest: we are, Dyer... we are watching you do nothing to protect your kids. It's a gross case of negligence. 

We've been watching you guys do nothing for many years now. It really speaks to the soul of America: all the flags at half mast and all the thoughts and prayers are hollow and meaningless.

We have collectively decided that guns are like cars.  We value them to an extent that we accept that some people will be killed.  In both cases, we've chosen inadequate levels of preventing lax behavior that leads to danger.  In both cases, it's a culture that, while some have other ideas, the majority wouldn't give up under any circumstances and, therefore, accepts that some of us are going to parish.  The biggest difference is that  we are desensitized to automobile deaths.  But we are getting there with gun-related deaths.

No, actually, things would be a whole lot better if the US decided that guns were like cars, because the rate of deaths from cars has gone down sharply over the decades, while the rate of gun-related deaths has increased. Why? Because a whole lot of attention is paid to making automobiles safer, given that a certain percentage of their drivers will be insufficiently trained or attentive.  Engineers pour over methods to improve automobile safety, roads are redesigned to minimize crash risks, we require training and licensing, and there are stiff penalties if you misuse your automobile, including the risk of being suspended or completely barred from driving. The USA does virtually none of that for guns. 

Where are you getting your data from?  I realize this is a couple years old, but over the past few decades the gun death rate has actually decreased and pretty much plateaued.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/21/gun-homicides-steady-after-decline-in-90s-suicide-rate-edges-up/

Gun deaths are on the rise again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/us/gun-death-rates.html

Guns are a man made phenomenon and can absolutely be limited in production and distribution. To liken them to earthquakes is to buy in to the “nothing can be done” argument. Guns are not a force of nature. 

You completely missed the point of that sentence, but thanks for playing.  My concern is the rules that would have to go into place to limit production being a capitalist society and all.  
But the earthquake analogy was more in reference to situations where crazy people get the guns (regardless of laws) and try to shoot up a school.  There will most likely be more of those before any kind of real/effective “solutions” are implemented, so preparations for these scenarios are a key component to reducing mass casualties.

No, I'm fully aware of your point, which is to deflect attention away from what's obvious and confabulate a whole host of other potential reasons why the US might be such an outlier in gun deaths. 

Sorry that I am not more close minded like yourself.  I believe it is important to evaluate all possible contributing factors before drawing conclusions...you know...like researchers do.

and research has clearly shown a direct correlation that more guns in an area equals more gun related deaths.... its been presented in this thread several times.... just like research has shown that introducing a gun into a home means the members of that home are more likely to be harmed by a gun.... its pretty simple really 

(paging @Benjis)

my2hands said:

PJPOWER said:

my2hands said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

josevolution said:

PJPOWER said:

my2hands said:

PJPOWER said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

OnWis97 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HesCalledDyer said:

dankind said:

My heart will never heal from this.

https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/997506332939956229

There aren't many things that can move me to tears out of sheer disappointment... but the first time I saw that clip, it was one of those moments.  Our children are growing up expecting to get shot in school.

I don't know how anyone can watch that and not admit we have a problem in this country.  And with the advent of the modern internet, the whole world is sitting there watching us do NOTHING to protect our kids, our citizens.

Here's more truth that's tough to digest: we are, Dyer... we are watching you do nothing to protect your kids. It's a gross case of negligence. 

We've been watching you guys do nothing for many years now. It really speaks to the soul of America: all the flags at half mast and all the thoughts and prayers are hollow and meaningless.

We have collectively decided that guns are like cars.  We value them to an extent that we accept that some people will be killed.  In both cases, we've chosen inadequate levels of preventing lax behavior that leads to danger.  In both cases, it's a culture that, while some have other ideas, the majority wouldn't give up under any circumstances and, therefore, accepts that some of us are going to parish.  The biggest difference is that  we are desensitized to automobile deaths.  But we are getting there with gun-related deaths.

No, actually, things would be a whole lot better if the US decided that guns were like cars, because the rate of deaths from cars has gone down sharply over the decades, while the rate of gun-related deaths has increased. Why? Because a whole lot of attention is paid to making automobiles safer, given that a certain percentage of their drivers will be insufficiently trained or attentive.  Engineers pour over methods to improve automobile safety, roads are redesigned to minimize crash risks, we require training and licensing, and there are stiff penalties if you misuse your automobile, including the risk of being suspended or completely barred from driving. The USA does virtually none of that for guns. 

Where are you getting your data from?  I realize this is a couple years old, but over the past few decades the gun death rate has actually decreased and pretty much plateaued.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/21/gun-homicides-steady-after-decline-in-90s-suicide-rate-edges-up/

Gun deaths are on the rise again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/us/gun-death-rates.html

Guns are a man made phenomenon and can absolutely be limited in production and distribution. To liken them to earthquakes is to buy in to the “nothing can be done” argument. Guns are not a force of nature. 

You completely missed the point of that sentence, but thanks for playing.  My concern is the rules that would have to go into place to limit production being a capitalist society and all.  
But the earthquake analogy was more in reference to situations where crazy people get the guns (regardless of laws) and try to shoot up a school.  There will most likely be more of those before any kind of real/effective “solutions” are implemented, so preparations for these scenarios are a key component to reducing mass casualties.

No, I'm fully aware of your point, which is to deflect attention away from what's obvious and confabulate a whole host of other potential reasons why the US might be such an outlier in gun deaths. 

Sorry that I am not more close minded like yourself.  I believe it is important to evaluate all possible contributing factors before drawing conclusions...you know...like researchers do.

and research has clearly shown a direct correlation that more guns in an area equals more gun related deaths.... its been presented in this thread several times.... just like research has shown that introducing a gun into a home means the members of that home are more likely to be harmed by a gun.... its pretty simple really 

(paging @Benjis)

So since that is obviously a difficult factor to control at the moment, maybe it is a good idea to consider  the others where change may not be as difficult?

or maybe we stop taking such a short-sighted approach and step up to the plate for future generations?

Wright Brothers flew 10 feet off the ground at 6 MPH in 1903...... 1969 we were walking on the moon.... 1986 to present we have been living in space on a space station....

stop being dismissive of ideas and proposed changes just because it wont solve the problem overnight

my2hands said:

PJPOWER said:

my2hands said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

josevolution said:

PJPOWER said:

my2hands said:

PJPOWER said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

OnWis97 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HesCalledDyer said:

dankind said:

My heart will never heal from this.

https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/997506332939956229

There aren't many things that can move me to tears out of sheer disappointment... but the first time I saw that clip, it was one of those moments.  Our children are growing up expecting to get shot in school.

I don't know how anyone can watch that and not admit we have a problem in this country.  And with the advent of the modern internet, the whole world is sitting there watching us do NOTHING to protect our kids, our citizens.

Here's more truth that's tough to digest: we are, Dyer... we are watching you do nothing to protect your kids. It's a gross case of negligence. 

We've been watching you guys do nothing for many years now. It really speaks to the soul of America: all the flags at half mast and all the thoughts and prayers are hollow and meaningless.

We have collectively decided that guns are like cars.  We value them to an extent that we accept that some people will be killed.  In both cases, we've chosen inadequate levels of preventing lax behavior that leads to danger.  In both cases, it's a culture that, while some have other ideas, the majority wouldn't give up under any circumstances and, therefore, accepts that some of us are going to parish.  The biggest difference is that  we are desensitized to automobile deaths.  But we are getting there with gun-related deaths.

No, actually, things would be a whole lot better if the US decided that guns were like cars, because the rate of deaths from cars has gone down sharply over the decades, while the rate of gun-related deaths has increased. Why? Because a whole lot of attention is paid to making automobiles safer, given that a certain percentage of their drivers will be insufficiently trained or attentive.  Engineers pour over methods to improve automobile safety, roads are redesigned to minimize crash risks, we require training and licensing, and there are stiff penalties if you misuse your automobile, including the risk of being suspended or completely barred from driving. The USA does virtually none of that for guns. 

Where are you getting your data from?  I realize this is a couple years old, but over the past few decades the gun death rate has actually decreased and pretty much plateaued.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/21/gun-homicides-steady-after-decline-in-90s-suicide-rate-edges-up/

Gun deaths are on the rise again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/us/gun-death-rates.html

Guns are a man made phenomenon and can absolutely be limited in production and distribution. To liken them to earthquakes is to buy in to the “nothing can be done” argument. Guns are not a force of nature. 

You completely missed the point of that sentence, but thanks for playing.  My concern is the rules that would have to go into place to limit production being a capitalist society and all.  
But the earthquake analogy was more in reference to situations where crazy people get the guns (regardless of laws) and try to shoot up a school.  There will most likely be more of those before any kind of real/effective “solutions” are implemented, so preparations for these scenarios are a key component to reducing mass casualties.

No, I'm fully aware of your point, which is to deflect attention away from what's obvious and confabulate a whole host of other potential reasons why the US might be such an outlier in gun deaths. 

Sorry that I am not more close minded like yourself.  I believe it is important to evaluate all possible contributing factors before drawing conclusions...you know...like researchers do.

and research has clearly shown a direct correlation that more guns in an area equals more gun related deaths.... its been presented in this thread several times.... just like research has shown that introducing a gun into a home means the members of that home are more likely to be harmed by a gun.... its pretty simple really 

(paging @Benjis)

So since that is obviously a difficult factor to control at the moment, maybe it is a good idea to consider  the others where change may not be as difficult?

or maybe we stop taking such a short-sighted approach and step up to the plate for future generations?

Wright Brothers flew 10 feet off the ground at 6 MPH in 1903...... 1969 we were walking on the moon.... 1986 to present we have been living in space on a space station....

stop being dismissive of ideas and proposed changes just because it wont solve the problem overnight

benjs said:

PJPOWER said:

my2hands said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

josevolution said:

PJPOWER said:

my2hands said:

PJPOWER said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

OnWis97 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HesCalledDyer said:

dankind said:

My heart will never heal from this.

https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/997506332939956229

Where are you getting your data from?  I realize this is a couple years old, but over the past few decades the gun death rate has actually decreased and pretty much plateaued.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/21/gun-homicides-steady-after-decline-in-90s-suicide-rate-edges-up/

Gun deaths are on the rise again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/us/gun-death-rates.html

Guns are a man made phenomenon and can absolutely be limited in production and distribution. To liken them to earthquakes is to buy in to the “nothing can be done” argument. Guns are not a force of nature. 

No, I'm fully aware of your point, which is to deflect attention away from what's obvious and confabulate a whole host of other potential reasons why the US might be such an outlier in gun deaths. 

Sorry that I am not more close minded like yourself.  I believe it is important to evaluate all possible contributing factors before drawing conclusions...you know...like researchers do.

and research has clearly shown a direct correlation that more guns in an area equals more gun related deaths.... its been presented in this thread several times.... just like research has shown that introducing a gun into a home means the members of that home are more likely to be harmed by a gun.... its pretty simple really 

(paging @Benjis)

So since that is obviously a difficult factor to control at the moment, maybe it is a good idea to consider  the others where change may not be as difficult?

Actually, I think the answer is that any efforts are futile, and not worth pursuing.

If your population growth rate exceeds your gun distribution rate, then you are controlling guns. Since a sudden wave of population expansion is unlikely, then you have only gun purchase rate to control. 

To control your gun distribution rate, you can reduce supply until it’s a bottleneck, or you can reduce demand.

Since I don’t expect ethical behaviour from businesses or the government (I don’t expect it from people either, as evidenced by apathy such as yours), reducing supply is unrealistic, which leaves reducing demand.

To reduce demand for guns, there are two ways - teach why you shouldn’t need one, and teach why you shouldn’t want one. 

In order to teach why people shouldn’t need guns, logic is the only answer. Since more guns distributed in a nation are proven time and time again to lead to more gun fatalities (and I don’t care if you’re talking someone who shoved a gun up their ass and accidentally pulled the trigger or painting the floors of high school gymnasiums red with the blood of children), logic would suggest that the need is actually to have fewer guns - not more. The only reasonable-ish counter-claim is that this will leave a surplus of guns in the hands of criminals, leaving a vulnerable citizenry. I legitimately don’t know how to overcome this objection.

In order to teach why people shouldn’t want one, people would have to have greater opposing values than favoring them. Having been to Cambodia and assumed to be American, asked whether I wanted to go shoot an AK-47 after visiting the mass graves in the Killing Fields. Shocked, I said definitely not. While this attitude is not uniquely American, as evidenced by our 398 pages including references to ten-year-olds exposed to guns in ‘safe environments’ with the response “that was cool”, the circle jerks over favourite models, a prevalence of bloody and violent video games and movies, I can’t help but believe that amidst a large percentage of the American population, guns are seen as, at least, benign, and at most, “fun as hell”. Since gamification drives engagement, and youth are exposed to guns when they understand fun but have yet to understand cost, there seems to be an intentional push to show guns as no different than soccer balls or go-karts, potential ramifications be damned. 

Since the want is there, when promoting guns in society to the moderately intelligent, there has to be a sales pitch as to whether the impact from owning or using a gun is positive or neutral, and that it’s not negative. To show positive impact, the argument is for security. To show neutral impact, the argument aimed at the stupid is “don’t worry, it’s safe and it’s fun”. That takes care of the negative impact. 

To the unintelligent, the sales pitch of the impact of a gun doesn’t even make the conversation.

After all this, I don’t know how one could argue that an expanding population where newly-created criminals are the only ones able to access lethal weapons will yield a safer nation, but I think that’s the question that must be answered. Regrettably, the median intelligence and ability to think critically in America is too low, so once answered, painting guns in a positive light without an explanation will become the de facto way to push guns, and that will satisfy enough to keep the risk. 

Then, the irony - that the most selfish nation to date, who not only created a wealth inequality previously unknown but also an even more dramatic intelligence inequality, holds all the cards. Which is why I feel that any efforts are futile, and in all seriousness, regardless of our impact on the climate, regardless of nuclear warheads, regardless of how quickly we get to Mars, we are doomed, because we as a civilization are seriously fundamentally flawed, and do not deserve life. We are the greatest plague that has ever existed. The worst is yet to come.

See you guys in a few months when another high school gets painted and gun owners pretend to give a shit.