America's Gun Violence

Thoughts_Arrive said:

https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/pro-gun-lobby-blames-drugged-students-and-abortion-for-shootings-20180521-p4zggp.html

Fucking lunatic.

Republicans - Love the unborn, Hate the born.

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

OnWis97 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HesCalledDyer said:

dankind said:

My heart will never heal from this.

https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/997506332939956229

There aren't many things that can move me to tears out of sheer disappointment... but the first time I saw that clip, it was one of those moments.  Our children are growing up expecting to get shot in school.

I don't know how anyone can watch that and not admit we have a problem in this country.  And with the advent of the modern internet, the whole world is sitting there watching us do NOTHING to protect our kids, our citizens.

Here's more truth that's tough to digest: we are, Dyer... we are watching you do nothing to protect your kids. It's a gross case of negligence. 

We've been watching you guys do nothing for many years now. It really speaks to the soul of America: all the flags at half mast and all the thoughts and prayers are hollow and meaningless.

We have collectively decided that guns are like cars.  We value them to an extent that we accept that some people will be killed.  In both cases, we've chosen inadequate levels of preventing lax behavior that leads to danger.  In both cases, it's a culture that, while some have other ideas, the majority wouldn't give up under any circumstances and, therefore, accepts that some of us are going to parish.  The biggest difference is that  we are desensitized to automobile deaths.  But we are getting there with gun-related deaths.

No, actually, things would be a whole lot better if the US decided that guns were like cars, because the rate of deaths from cars has gone down sharply over the decades, while the rate of gun-related deaths has increased. Why? Because a whole lot of attention is paid to making automobiles safer, given that a certain percentage of their drivers will be insufficiently trained or attentive.  Engineers pour over methods to improve automobile safety, roads are redesigned to minimize crash risks, we require training and licensing, and there are stiff penalties if you misuse your automobile, including the risk of being suspended or completely barred from driving. The USA does virtually none of that for guns. 

Where are you getting your data from?  I realize this is a couple years old, but over the past few decades the gun death rate has actually decreased and pretty much plateaued.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/21/gun-homicides-steady-after-decline-in-90s-suicide-rate-edges-up/

Gun deaths are on the rise again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/us/gun-death-rates.html

But even the researcher there admitted that it could just be a “blip”.  Far more concerning was the rate of drug overdoses in that same time period.  It rose at almost 4 times the rate that of firearm deaths, wonder if there is any overlap/correlation there?  As for gun deaths, any rise is concerning, but not always substantial when looking at even the past 50 years.  Was the US the only country that showed a small increase over the past two years.  It does not seem to correlate with the rate of gun ownership over the past 10 years.
   

And massacres keep happening , are there to many guns in the country ? 

josevolution said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

OnWis97 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HesCalledDyer said:

dankind said:

My heart will never heal from this.

https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/997506332939956229

There aren't many things that can move me to tears out of sheer disappointment... but the first time I saw that clip, it was one of those moments.  Our children are growing up expecting to get shot in school.

I don't know how anyone can watch that and not admit we have a problem in this country.  And with the advent of the modern internet, the whole world is sitting there watching us do NOTHING to protect our kids, our citizens.

Here's more truth that's tough to digest: we are, Dyer... we are watching you do nothing to protect your kids. It's a gross case of negligence. 

We've been watching you guys do nothing for many years now. It really speaks to the soul of America: all the flags at half mast and all the thoughts and prayers are hollow and meaningless.

We have collectively decided that guns are like cars.  We value them to an extent that we accept that some people will be killed.  In both cases, we've chosen inadequate levels of preventing lax behavior that leads to danger.  In both cases, it's a culture that, while some have other ideas, the majority wouldn't give up under any circumstances and, therefore, accepts that some of us are going to parish.  The biggest difference is that  we are desensitized to automobile deaths.  But we are getting there with gun-related deaths.

No, actually, things would be a whole lot better if the US decided that guns were like cars, because the rate of deaths from cars has gone down sharply over the decades, while the rate of gun-related deaths has increased. Why? Because a whole lot of attention is paid to making automobiles safer, given that a certain percentage of their drivers will be insufficiently trained or attentive.  Engineers pour over methods to improve automobile safety, roads are redesigned to minimize crash risks, we require training and licensing, and there are stiff penalties if you misuse your automobile, including the risk of being suspended or completely barred from driving. The USA does virtually none of that for guns. 

Where are you getting your data from?  I realize this is a couple years old, but over the past few decades the gun death rate has actually decreased and pretty much plateaued.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/21/gun-homicides-steady-after-decline-in-90s-suicide-rate-edges-up/

Gun deaths are on the rise again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/us/gun-death-rates.html

But even the researcher there admitted that it could just be a “blip”.  Far more concerning was the rate of drug overdoses in that same time period.  It rose at almost 4 times the rate that of firearm deaths, wonder if there is any overlap/correlation there?  As for gun deaths, any rise is concerning, but not always substantial when looking at even the past 50 years.  Was the US the only country that showed a small increase over the past two years.  It does not seem to correlate with the rate of gun ownership over the past 10 years.
   

And massacres keep happening , are there to many guns in the country ? 

While I would agree that the sheer number of guns does contribute, I don't see any evidence that the number of guns is the main factor.
For years gun homicides were on the decline, while gun sales increased. They spiked in the early 90s and declined for about 20 years, until about 2014 where they began to increase again.
So gun sales may contribute, but there is definitely more to it than just gun sales. As frustrated as some get when people point the fingers and gun owners and say we're to blame because of the number of goes, we get equally frustrated that thinking limiting gun sales is going to solve the problem. It isn't.
I'm willing to try most of what has been suggested. Maybe I'm wrong and we'll see a big drop, its worth a shot. But I just don't expect to see a big change until we look to other causes as well. Putting more into mental health, putting more into our young kids. Its been mentioned that most of them are young white males. That is true, but they also have more in common. Young white males who feel like an outcast in society. Lets think of ways to address that too.

pjhawks said:

OnWis97 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HesCalledDyer said:

dankind said:

My heart will never heal from this.

https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/997506332939956229

There aren't many things that can move me to tears out of sheer disappointment... but the first time I saw that clip, it was one of those moments.  Our children are growing up expecting to get shot in school.

I don't know how anyone can watch that and not admit we have a problem in this country.  And with the advent of the modern internet, the whole world is sitting there watching us do NOTHING to protect our kids, our citizens.

Here's more truth that's tough to digest: we are, Dyer... we are watching you do nothing to protect your kids. It's a gross case of negligence. 

We've been watching you guys do nothing for many years now. It really speaks to the soul of America: all the flags at half mast and all the thoughts and prayers are hollow and meaningless.

We have collectively decided that guns are like cars.  We value them to an extent that we accept that some people will be killed.  In both cases, we've chosen inadequate levels of preventing lax behavior that leads to danger.  In both cases, it's a culture that, while some have other ideas, the majority wouldn't give up under any circumstances and, therefore, accepts that some of us are going to parish.  The biggest difference is that  we are desensitized to automobile deaths.  But we are getting there with gun-related deaths.

except since the 1970s we've had many regulations and changes in safety rules in automobiles. we are constantly evolving with car safety. hell my car now tells me when someone is in the next lane to me.  with guns what have we done to improve safety? we've repealed gun restrictions from 1990s.  can we really compare what we have at least tried to do with automobile safety with gun safety? i don't think so.

HesCalledDyer said:

pjhawks said:

OnWis97 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HesCalledDyer said:

dankind said:

My heart will never heal from this.

https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/997506332939956229

There aren't many things that can move me to tears out of sheer disappointment... but the first time I saw that clip, it was one of those moments.  Our children are growing up expecting to get shot in school.

I don't know how anyone can watch that and not admit we have a problem in this country.  And with the advent of the modern internet, the whole world is sitting there watching us do NOTHING to protect our kids, our citizens.

Here's more truth that's tough to digest: we are, Dyer... we are watching you do nothing to protect your kids. It's a gross case of negligence. 

We've been watching you guys do nothing for many years now. It really speaks to the soul of America: all the flags at half mast and all the thoughts and prayers are hollow and meaningless.

We have collectively decided that guns are like cars.  We value them to an extent that we accept that some people will be killed.  In both cases, we've chosen inadequate levels of preventing lax behavior that leads to danger.  In both cases, it's a culture that, while some have other ideas, the majority wouldn't give up under any circumstances and, therefore, accepts that some of us are going to parish.  The biggest difference is that  we are desensitized to automobile deaths.  But we are getting there with gun-related deaths.

except since the 1970s we've had many regulations and changes in safety rules in automobiles. we are constantly evolving with car safety. hell my car now tells me when someone is in the next lane to me.  with guns what have we done to improve safety? we've repealed gun restrictions from 1990s.  can we really compare what we have at least tried to do with automobile safety with gun safety? i don't think so.

Exactly.

And I'd like to add, too, that the first thing the pro gun crowd will point out when we make these kinds of arguments is that driving is a privilege, not a constitutionally protected right. It's like their get out of jail free card when someone brings up statistics or training & regulations for other dangerous devices, such as the automobile.  I always say we've amended the Constitution 27 times, we can amend it again.  That and no constitutional right is without limitations.

absolutely on both points. I just can't wrap my head around why so many people think that once an amednment has been made, it is written in stone. it is just plain ludicrous. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

josevolution said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

OnWis97 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HesCalledDyer said:

dankind said:

My heart will never heal from this.

https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/997506332939956229

There aren't many things that can move me to tears out of sheer disappointment... but the first time I saw that clip, it was one of those moments.  Our children are growing up expecting to get shot in school.

I don't know how anyone can watch that and not admit we have a problem in this country.  And with the advent of the modern internet, the whole world is sitting there watching us do NOTHING to protect our kids, our citizens.

Here's more truth that's tough to digest: we are, Dyer... we are watching you do nothing to protect your kids. It's a gross case of negligence. 

We've been watching you guys do nothing for many years now. It really speaks to the soul of America: all the flags at half mast and all the thoughts and prayers are hollow and meaningless.

We have collectively decided that guns are like cars.  We value them to an extent that we accept that some people will be killed.  In both cases, we've chosen inadequate levels of preventing lax behavior that leads to danger.  In both cases, it's a culture that, while some have other ideas, the majority wouldn't give up under any circumstances and, therefore, accepts that some of us are going to parish.  The biggest difference is that  we are desensitized to automobile deaths.  But we are getting there with gun-related deaths.

No, actually, things would be a whole lot better if the US decided that guns were like cars, because the rate of deaths from cars has gone down sharply over the decades, while the rate of gun-related deaths has increased. Why? Because a whole lot of attention is paid to making automobiles safer, given that a certain percentage of their drivers will be insufficiently trained or attentive.  Engineers pour over methods to improve automobile safety, roads are redesigned to minimize crash risks, we require training and licensing, and there are stiff penalties if you misuse your automobile, including the risk of being suspended or completely barred from driving. The USA does virtually none of that for guns. 

Where are you getting your data from?  I realize this is a couple years old, but over the past few decades the gun death rate has actually decreased and pretty much plateaued.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/21/gun-homicides-steady-after-decline-in-90s-suicide-rate-edges-up/

Gun deaths are on the rise again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/us/gun-death-rates.html

But even the researcher there admitted that it could just be a “blip”.  Far more concerning was the rate of drug overdoses in that same time period.  It rose at almost 4 times the rate that of firearm deaths, wonder if there is any overlap/correlation there?  As for gun deaths, any rise is concerning, but not always substantial when looking at even the past 50 years.  Was the US the only country that showed a small increase over the past two years.  It does not seem to correlate with the rate of gun ownership over the past 10 years.
   

And massacres keep happening , are there to many guns in the country ? 

While I would agree that the sheer number of guns does contribute, I don't see any evidence that the number of guns is the main factor.
For years gun homicides were on the decline, while gun sales increased. They spiked in the early 90s and declined for about 20 years, until about 2014 where they began to increase again.
So gun sales may contribute, but there is definitely more to it than just gun sales. As frustrated as some get when people point the fingers and gun owners and say we're to blame because of the number of goes, we get equally frustrated that thinking limiting gun sales is going to solve the problem. It isn't.
I'm willing to try most of what has been suggested. Maybe I'm wrong and we'll see a big drop, its worth a shot. But I just don't expect to see a big change until we look to other causes as well. Putting more into mental health, putting more into our young kids. Its been mentioned that most of them are young white males. That is true, but they also have more in common. Young white males who feel like an outcast in society. Lets think of ways to address that too.

I agree, but at the same time, there are young white male outcasts in all western nations. 

I didnt know how much it has increased until this morning. Gun homicides have gone up about 40-50% since 2014. I had no idea it was that big of an increase. 
So we are creating more outcasts or doing something very different than we did just a few years ago to see this big of a difference.

mrussel1 said:

The bar is high on an amendment, and that's not getting done.  Plus the only thing to amend is if we chose to outlaw guns and we're nowhere near that in the public opinion.  But there isn't one gun control measure discussed here that would likely be found unconstitutional.  Trigger locks in the home has been struck down already though, but not locks in public.  I don't think that's been litigated.  

of course, all my point was is that people act as if it is one of the ten commandments. 

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

The bar is high on an amendment, and that's not getting done.  Plus the only thing to amend is if we chose to outlaw guns and we're nowhere near that in the public opinion.  But there isn't one gun control measure discussed here that would likely be found unconstitutional.  Trigger locks in the home has been struck down already though, but not locks in public.  I don't think that's been litigated.  

of course, all my point was is that people act as if it is one of the ten commandments. 

I thought there were 15...but Mel dropped one of the tablets.  

funny, I was actually thinking of that as I typed it. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

OnWis97 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HesCalledDyer said:

dankind said:

My heart will never heal from this.

https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/997506332939956229

There aren't many things that can move me to tears out of sheer disappointment... but the first time I saw that clip, it was one of those moments.  Our children are growing up expecting to get shot in school.

I don't know how anyone can watch that and not admit we have a problem in this country.  And with the advent of the modern internet, the whole world is sitting there watching us do NOTHING to protect our kids, our citizens.

Here's more truth that's tough to digest: we are, Dyer... we are watching you do nothing to protect your kids. It's a gross case of negligence. 

We've been watching you guys do nothing for many years now. It really speaks to the soul of America: all the flags at half mast and all the thoughts and prayers are hollow and meaningless.

We have collectively decided that guns are like cars.  We value them to an extent that we accept that some people will be killed.  In both cases, we've chosen inadequate levels of preventing lax behavior that leads to danger.  In both cases, it's a culture that, while some have other ideas, the majority wouldn't give up under any circumstances and, therefore, accepts that some of us are going to parish.  The biggest difference is that  we are desensitized to automobile deaths.  But we are getting there with gun-related deaths.

No, actually, things would be a whole lot better if the US decided that guns were like cars, because the rate of deaths from cars has gone down sharply over the decades, while the rate of gun-related deaths has increased. Why? Because a whole lot of attention is paid to making automobiles safer, given that a certain percentage of their drivers will be insufficiently trained or attentive.  Engineers pour over methods to improve automobile safety, roads are redesigned to minimize crash risks, we require training and licensing, and there are stiff penalties if you misuse your automobile, including the risk of being suspended or completely barred from driving. The USA does virtually none of that for guns. 

Where are you getting your data from?  I realize this is a couple years old, but over the past few decades the gun death rate has actually decreased and pretty much plateaued.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/21/gun-homicides-steady-after-decline-in-90s-suicide-rate-edges-up/

Gun deaths are on the rise again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/us/gun-death-rates.html

But even the researcher there admitted that it could just be a “blip”.  Far more concerning was the rate of drug overdoses in that same time period.  It rose at almost 4 times the rate that of firearm deaths, wonder if there is any overlap/correlation there?  As for gun deaths, any rise is concerning, but not always substantial when looking at even the past 50 years.  Was the US the only country that showed a small increase over the past two years.  It does not seem to correlate with the rate of gun ownership over the past 10 years.
   

why would opioid use have anything to do with guns?

It was pointed out in the article is the only reason I mentioned it.  It could very well be a correlation, though, as drug abuse is a factor in many crimes that are committed.

dankind said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

josevolution said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

OnWis97 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HesCalledDyer said:

dankind said:

My heart will never heal from this.

https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/997506332939956229

There aren't many things that can move me to tears out of sheer disappointment... but the first time I saw that clip, it was one of those moments.  Our children are growing up expecting to get shot in school.

I don't know how anyone can watch that and not admit we have a problem in this country.  And with the advent of the modern internet, the whole world is sitting there watching us do NOTHING to protect our kids, our citizens.

Here's more truth that's tough to digest: we are, Dyer... we are watching you do nothing to protect your kids. It's a gross case of negligence. 

We've been watching you guys do nothing for many years now. It really speaks to the soul of America: all the flags at half mast and all the thoughts and prayers are hollow and meaningless.

We have collectively decided that guns are like cars.  We value them to an extent that we accept that some people will be killed.  In both cases, we've chosen inadequate levels of preventing lax behavior that leads to danger.  In both cases, it's a culture that, while some have other ideas, the majority wouldn't give up under any circumstances and, therefore, accepts that some of us are going to parish.  The biggest difference is that  we are desensitized to automobile deaths.  But we are getting there with gun-related deaths.

No, actually, things would be a whole lot better if the US decided that guns were like cars, because the rate of deaths from cars has gone down sharply over the decades, while the rate of gun-related deaths has increased. Why? Because a whole lot of attention is paid to making automobiles safer, given that a certain percentage of their drivers will be insufficiently trained or attentive.  Engineers pour over methods to improve automobile safety, roads are redesigned to minimize crash risks, we require training and licensing, and there are stiff penalties if you misuse your automobile, including the risk of being suspended or completely barred from driving. The USA does virtually none of that for guns. 

Where are you getting your data from?  I realize this is a couple years old, but over the past few decades the gun death rate has actually decreased and pretty much plateaued.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/21/gun-homicides-steady-after-decline-in-90s-suicide-rate-edges-up/

Gun deaths are on the rise again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/us/gun-death-rates.html

But even the researcher there admitted that it could just be a “blip”.  Far more concerning was the rate of drug overdoses in that same time period.  It rose at almost 4 times the rate that of firearm deaths, wonder if there is any overlap/correlation there?  As for gun deaths, any rise is concerning, but not always substantial when looking at even the past 50 years.  Was the US the only country that showed a small increase over the past two years.  It does not seem to correlate with the rate of gun ownership over the past 10 years.
   

And massacres keep happening , are there to many guns in the country ? 

While I would agree that the sheer number of guns does contribute, I don't see any evidence that the number of guns is the main factor.
For years gun homicides were on the decline, while gun sales increased. They spiked in the early 90s and declined for about 20 years, until about 2014 where they began to increase again.
So gun sales may contribute, but there is definitely more to it than just gun sales. As frustrated as some get when people point the fingers and gun owners and say we're to blame because of the number of goes, we get equally frustrated that thinking limiting gun sales is going to solve the problem. It isn't.
I'm willing to try most of what has been suggested. Maybe I'm wrong and we'll see a big drop, its worth a shot. But I just don't expect to see a big change until we look to other causes as well. Putting more into mental health, putting more into our young kids. Its been mentioned that most of them are young white males. That is true, but they also have more in common. Young white males who feel like an outcast in society. Lets think of ways to address that too.

I agree, but at the same time, there are young white male outcasts in all western nations. 

I didnt know how much it has increased until this morning. Gun homicides have gone up about 40-50% since 2014. I had no idea it was that big of an increase. 
So we are creating more outcasts or doing something very different than we did just a few years ago to see this big of a difference.

We can only speculate about the answers to the questions that you have asked -- making assumptions, casting aspersions, precluding solutions -- until years of research are conducted (and thousands of Americans are added to the death count) to come up with hard data that one side of this issue will label spurious.

Or we can face an obvious fact that's staring us all in the face right now -- namely, that 100% of these escalating guns homicides involve guns -- and force our representatives to do their goddamn jobs or get them the hell out of there. Or we can run for office ourselves. All it takes is some signatures.

Until this issue is addressed and attempted solutions are implemented, I am a one-issue voter (when I vote). I don't care if the person running fucks goats on the regular. If s/he is advocating for some form of commonsense gun laws and the opposition is happy with the status quo or advocating for a more guns, then I'll have a giant goat fucker sign in my yard.  

LOL