America's Gun Violence

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea, but to be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible for a private school to house a monster, lol. Of course any school can have a psychopath as a student, or an extremely troubled or abused student, or a mentally ill student. I'm just saying that the chances of a school shooter coming out of a private school (and thus shooting up a private school) are much, much smaller for the reasons I mentioned. Far fewer kids slip through the cracks at private schools.

Fewer may “slip through the cracks”, but I think it’s fair to say that private schools expel most of the kids with any significant behavioural issues. They aren’t required to try to educate these kids, the way that public schools are. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison at all, because there’s a large selection bias. 

Where are you getting  that info? Public schools expel kids all the time - no school is forced to keep a problem kid at the school. I would guess that most private school kids who are expelled end up at another private school.

Not true.

A kid can be expelled from a school, but it takes a lot of 'incidents' before that occurs.

There's a thing called 'progressive discipline' which allows for a lot of really poor behaviour. And I mean really poor behaviour. Administrators cannot exercise judgement- they've been rendered useless.

With that said, a major episode can expedite the process somewhat... but a 'major episode' is usually something that damages somebody.

No, it is true, if you read what I actually said. I know about progressive discipline and acknowledge it. My point was that private schools do it too. It's just that their motives for doing it are different.

I would agree more with 30.
It is so much easier to expel a student at a private school. It is incredibly difficult at a public school today.
A private school with a high enrollment and wait list can and do expel kids even for grades. My wife went to a private school (she hated it) it was an extremely strict Christian school. They had a demerit system, and at a certain point you got expelled. You got demerits for wearing jeans, she actually knows several people who were expelled their senior year for something that stupid. You got demerits for being tardy to class. She told me one day her friend built up enough small demerits from things like that, and one day showed up in jeans and got expelled.  I think drugs and alcohol was an immediate expulsion. Now kids can deal and do drugs at public school and get a 3-day suspension for it.
Unfortunately public schools are forced to keep problem kids all the time. It actually is a major problem, how difficult it is to expel a student and how tolerant public schools have become of behavior, even violent behavior. 
Private schools who struggle for enrollment are probably a lot more tolerant, but there are many that are not.

Again, do you guys even understand what my initial point was? It doesn't seem like it. You seem to be assuming I'm somehow trying to give credit to private schools or something? I'm not. I actually said I don't think they should even be legal.
FWIW, I come from a family of public educators/school administrators, so I'm pretty aware of how it works. As for silly private school demerits... what dumb kid would wear jeans to a school where everyone is wearing a uniform? I've known tons of people who went to private school or kids who go now, and that shit just isn't happening, and there are very few expulsions happening at all because the kids are indeed better controlled and behaved because of all the reasons I already said.

PJPOWER said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea, but to be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible for a private school to house a monster, lol. Of course any school can have a psychopath as a student, or an extremely troubled or abused student, or a mentally ill student. I'm just saying that the chances of a school shooter coming out of a private school (and thus shooting up a private school) are much, much smaller for the reasons I mentioned. Far fewer kids slip through the cracks at private schools.

Fewer may “slip through the cracks”, but I think it’s fair to say that private schools expel most of the kids with any significant behavioural issues. They aren’t required to try to educate these kids, the way that public schools are. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison at all, because there’s a large selection bias. 

Where are you getting  that info? Public schools expel kids all the time - no school is forced to keep a problem kid at the school. I would guess that most private school kids who are expelled end up at another private school.

Not true.

A kid can be expelled from a school, but it takes a lot of 'incidents' before that occurs.

There's a thing called 'progressive discipline' which allows for a lot of really poor behaviour. And I mean really poor behaviour. Administrators cannot exercise judgement- they've been rendered useless.

With that said, a major episode can expedite the process somewhat... but a 'major episode' is usually something that damages somebody.

No, it is true, if you read what I actually said. I know about progressive discipline and acknowledge it. My point was that private schools do it too. It's just that their motives for doing it are different.

So is their protocol. They are able to demand and enforce tighter behaviour. Simply put: they don't have to tolerate as much poor behaviour as public schools do.

What are we even debating here? I think your last point was also my point. Did you read my initial post about this?

Yes.

You stated this: Public schools expel kids all the time - no school is forced to keep a problem kid at the school. I'm saying that isn't true.

I'm saying that public schools are forced to keep problem kids at their school and have very little leverage to demand proper behaviour. As a result (and among many items relevant to this fact that I don't wish to understate), chronic bullies torment good kids on a daily basis and teachers become exasperated dealing with poor behaviours that don't quite cross the line for administrative referral.

You convinced me, I’m sending my child to a private school.  Public education is bogged down by legislation and provides a second rate education.  Why would anyone that could afford a private school not send their kid there?  Once the public education system pulls its head out of its ass, I may reconsider.

A nice place to start would be to stop voting for people who cut public education then.

I've actually given some serious thought to quitting my job and home-schooling my kids. We're right on that cusp at which we can't afford private schools in our area, and yet we don't qualify for any sort of financial aid.

It sucks because when I was a kid, the public schools had gifted programs where I grew up for those kids who excelled in their schoolwork. They don't have that where I live, and my daughter who excels is basically given busy work to do during class. Her teacher is awesome and is doing all she can with the resources at her disposal, basically letting my daughter check out more challenging books from the library (which can be tricky because the subject matter isn't always age appropriate) and getting math worksheets from her colleagues from one and two grade levels up for my daughter to do, but everyone fears that my daughter is getting bored. Also, this pretty much singles her out in class, and feeling somewhat outcast, she's made some poor choices to try to fit in with her classmates

I have no such concerns for my son. He'll probably be held back -- that is, if he doesn't burn down the school (accidentally, of course).

Apparently the Austin bomber was home schooled, take that info for what it is.

PJ_Soul said:

Home schooled kids are usually weird, don't do it, lol. No matter what you try to do to counteract it, that they are separated that much from their peers and not sharing so many experiences daily with them can't be good for them socially. Not to mention the complete lack of variety in their education that home schooling necessitates. (obviously do what you think is best... I'm just saying that I think home schooling pretty much sucks for the kids generally... However, there some obvious exceptions to every rule).

We’re also considering moving to a place that still has public schools with gifted programs. If only we hadn’t fucked our way out of Brooklyn.

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea, but to be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible for a private school to house a monster, lol. Of course any school can have a psychopath as a student, or an extremely troubled or abused student, or a mentally ill student. I'm just saying that the chances of a school shooter coming out of a private school (and thus shooting up a private school) are much, much smaller for the reasons I mentioned. Far fewer kids slip through the cracks at private schools.

Fewer may “slip through the cracks”, but I think it’s fair to say that private schools expel most of the kids with any significant behavioural issues. They aren’t required to try to educate these kids, the way that public schools are. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison at all, because there’s a large selection bias. 

Where are you getting  that info? Public schools expel kids all the time - no school is forced to keep a problem kid at the school. I would guess that most private school kids who are expelled end up at another private school.

Not true.

A kid can be expelled from a school, but it takes a lot of 'incidents' before that occurs.

There's a thing called 'progressive discipline' which allows for a lot of really poor behaviour. And I mean really poor behaviour. Administrators cannot exercise judgement- they've been rendered useless.

With that said, a major episode can expedite the process somewhat... but a 'major episode' is usually something that damages somebody.

No, it is true, if you read what I actually said. I know about progressive discipline and acknowledge it. My point was that private schools do it too. It's just that their motives for doing it are different.

I would agree more with 30.
It is so much easier to expel a student at a private school. It is incredibly difficult at a public school today.
A private school with a high enrollment and wait list can and do expel kids even for grades. My wife went to a private school (she hated it) it was an extremely strict Christian school. They had a demerit system, and at a certain point you got expelled. You got demerits for wearing jeans, she actually knows several people who were expelled their senior year for something that stupid. You got demerits for being tardy to class. She told me one day her friend built up enough small demerits from things like that, and one day showed up in jeans and got expelled.  I think drugs and alcohol was an immediate expulsion. Now kids can deal and do drugs at public school and get a 3-day suspension for it.
Unfortunately public schools are forced to keep problem kids all the time. It actually is a major problem, how difficult it is to expel a student and how tolerant public schools have become of behavior, even violent behavior. 
Private schools who struggle for enrollment are probably a lot more tolerant, but there are many that are not.

Again, do you guys even understand what my initial point was? It doesn't seem like it. You seem to be assuming I'm somehow trying to give credit to private schools or something? I'm not. I actually said I don't think they should even be legal.
FWIW, I come from a family of public educators/school administrators, so I'm pretty aware of how it works. As for silly private school demerits... what dumb kid would wear jeans to a school where everyone is wearing a uniform? I've known tons of people who went to private school or kids who go now, and that shit just isn't happening, and there are very few expulsions happening at all because the kids are indeed better controlled and behaved because of all the reasons I already said.

I guess not. I thought your point was public and private schools both have equal difficult (or ease) of expelling kids? I was just saying its much harder for a public school. Basically impossible unless they are a proven threat, and even then it is still questionable. Much harder for public schools. You said "public schools expel kids all the time", and that "no school has to keep a problem kid." Those were the comments I was responding to because that is not even close to the case. Its very difficult for schools to expel kids and they are forced to keep a lot of problem students. Private schools are not held to those same standards.
Was that not your point?

Well no, my initial point was actually to discuss why school shootings aren't happening in private schools, lol, and the reasons really had little to nothing to do with expulsions. But anyway, yes, public schools do expel kids all the time,  and no school does have to keep a problem kid (I meant a real problem kid, not a kid who talks too much in class or whatever, but I do know that plenty of kids get expelled for less than violence.... but remember I'm talking about the Canadian school system... that's the one I know... Sorry, I guess that is confusing in the American gun violence thread!). But I didn't mean that there wasn't a process they have to go through to get it done. Of course there is, and I said so. Anything else would be completely unfair to the child. Everyone needs to do everything possible to help kids with problems before tossing them. My next point was that private schools do not go crazy with expulsions at all, as someone kind of suggested, because they also have standards as far as that goes, just not necessarily the same ones as public schools because their motivations are different. Private schools still have problem kids in them FYI. But FWIW, when I initially made my actual point, I said that private schools simply do not generally have students who are that troubled to begin with, for various reasons...... But yeah, sorry, I am speaking from a Canadian perspective; I guess that means I kinda got off-track. I think our education systems are extremely similar.... but I'm thinking maybe the American system is just way farther into crisis than the Canadian one.

tbergs said:

PJ_Soul said:

Out of curiosity, I checked on that. No, Adam Lanza didn't attend private school. He attended public school (including Sandy Hook) for years, and then a public Intermediate school, and then home schooling, which seems to be when he got really weird. Doesn't say much for home schooling! Although in all fairness to his mother, perhaps she chose to home-school him because he was acting all fucked up, and not the other way around.
(I do admit that I think home schooling is fucking weird unless absolutely necessary)

Why do you think home schooling is weird? I think a lot of the preconceived stigmas of homeschool kids has come from TV, movies or the families that gain notoriety in the media, which in truth aren't homeschooling, just deviant parents, but claim homeschool so they can prevent their kids from drawing attention to human services.

Maybe you missed this yesterday, but I see you called it weird again @PJ_Soul.

tbergs said:

tbergs said:

PJ_Soul said:

Out of curiosity, I checked on that. No, Adam Lanza didn't attend private school. He attended public school (including Sandy Hook) for years, and then a public Intermediate school, and then home schooling, which seems to be when he got really weird. Doesn't say much for home schooling! Although in all fairness to his mother, perhaps she chose to home-school him because he was acting all fucked up, and not the other way around.
(I do admit that I think home schooling is fucking weird unless absolutely necessary)

Why do you think home schooling is weird? I think a lot of the preconceived stigmas of homeschool kids has come from TV, movies or the families that gain notoriety in the media, which in truth aren't homeschooling, just deviant parents, but claim homeschool so they can prevent their kids from drawing attention to human services.

Maybe you missed this yesterday, but I see you called it weird again @PJ_Soul.

I did miss it, and yes I called it weird again, lol. I think I answered your question in my reply to Dankind.

tbergs said:

PJ_Soul said:

Home schooled kids are usually weird, don't do it, lol. No matter what you try to do to counteract it, that they are separated that much from their peers and not sharing so many experiences daily with them can't be good for them socially. Not to mention the complete lack of variety in their education that home schooling necessitates. (obviously do what you think is best... I'm just saying that I think home schooling pretty much sucks for the kids generally... However, there some obvious exceptions to every rule).

Because a child who spends an extended amount of time around kids in a public school aren't weird, deviant and more socially adept? Again, it all comes down to how the parents conduct the homeschool experience. There are numerous activities and groups for homeschool parents. I would argue that they generally have more positive social interactions because they don't have to vie for the attention of their teacher along with 25 other kids and be subjected to the distractions, bullying and influence of the kids who create a difficult learning environment.

Besides families that do it for strictly religious reasons, which I think is limiting the scope of the education, a homeschool child isn't confined to the systematic approach of the public school system. I do agree that private schools are a great option if you can afford it because they usually approach education as it relates to the whole child and incorporate movement into the day beyond just recess.

There are a lot of positive benefits to homeschooling that seem to get overlooked while the stigmas and biases become the standard label for no reason. Unless you have some other research or source that indicates this trend of weird kids being homeschooled it would seem appropriate to stop spreading that inaccurate opinion.

https://www.nheri.org/research-facts-on-homeschooling/

http://www.businessinsider.com/structured-homeschool-canada-2011-9

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-kids-should-get-homeschooled-2016-8

Nope, I'm obviously not saying people who aren't home schooled can't be weird, lol. I think you knew that, right?

Just an opinion man. I don't think homeschooling is a good choice for kids for the reasons I already said, and yes, I know how it works. And home schooling for religious reasons is even worse as far as this hard core atheist is concerned, lol. But I'm not stopping parents from doing it anyway, so my opinion is pretty irrelevant. I would think your comment would be reasonable if I had posted some incorrect facts, which I didn't, but I don't think it's reasonable at all for you to suggest I "stop spreading (my) inaccurate opinion." It's my opinion, so it is 100% accurate, and I formed my opinion based on plenty of information and my own observations. There is nothing inaccurate about that. You simply don't agree with me.