America's Gun Violence

benjs said:

Can we summarize the suggested actions (for either handling the gun problem in schools or public areas)? Not the reasons behind them, just strictly the actions themselves. At this point, I think I’ve heard:

1. Arm teachers with tasers
2. Arm teachers with guns
3. Deploy armed guards in schools
4. Deploy armed guards in public facilities
5. Ban guns
6. Ban assault type weapons
7. Increase gun control

Have I missed any?

rgambs said:

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

tbergs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mrussel1 said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

Ok, a teacher sacrifices his life to save students and a security cop cowered outside and the conclusion you draw is ass-backwards.
The lesson I'm hearing is that if the security cop didn't save the day a teacher never could...uh. 
DUH!  A teacher did!!!  How can you ignore such a doublethink??

Is this in response to me? I'm not sure I follow

No, a general response to mruss and my2hands and a few others who are using the cops cowardice to justify their feelings that teachers shouldn't be armed, even though a teacher laid his life on the line, unarmed.

Are you for arming teachers then?

I am for allowing physically fit and emotionally stable teachers to arm themselves voluntarily under strict guidelines and supervision if they have passed a thorough vetting, testing, and training program which would be an abbreviated version of police academy standards.

My point was, how can we expect a teacher to hunt down the shooter when a trained cop was unwilling to do it.  There's a difference between protecting the children (which too many teachers have done) and acting as a tactical response unit.  I'm very supportive of having armed police in the school.  My children's district already has cops in schools.  But they train full time for these situations.  Teachers do not.  
My wife and I agree that if teachers are armed in our school, they will be home schooled.  

There are a lot of cops that aren't well trained.

I know a bunch of cops that don't practice shooting.

I know a bunch of cops that retired NEVER un-holstering their weapon.

The cop that was there at the Florida school resigned for a reason, he should have never been there in the first place.

Right, lots of cops shouldn't be cops and lots of teachers shouldn't be teachers yet now if they want to be armed at their profession as well they can. Both professions go through background checks, but the intensity of training requirements and type of background vary by state. So the same place that hires shitty cops is going to hire shitty teachers, right? Either way, how many wannabe cops are out there compared to wannabe teachers? Can we at least admit that there are plenty of teachers who shouldn't be allowed to have a gun either, but now we're saying let them bring it to school so they can engage the threat if they want? What a nightmare for school districts to sort that out from an admin perspective.

So what if your teacher who wants to carry a gun fails his mental health/psych check or training? What impact will that have on their teaching and their job security? This isn't a straw man theory, it's a strong possibility to consider. Any teachers on here that had to pass a pysch/mental health background to become a teacher? Serious question. All cops in MN have to pass a psych to get hired. You take an MMPI and meet with a pyschologist. Sometimes you even need to take the California Psych. Inventory. Are we going to ensure the same standard for our armed teachers.

It's fucking dumb that not all gun owners at least need to pass an initial pysch/mental health screening. It would decrease gun violence and suicide by so much.

There is a flaw to this thinking.  Shooters on trial don't ever get to plea insanity because they aren't.  So the screening wouldn't do much in stopping the shootings.

I do agree that teachers should not carry though.

This is a great point that I was thinking about the other day.  All these NRA people (and Trump) talking about "this psychopath", this "crazy person", etc.  Do we think this person qualifies for an insanity plea?  Will the NRA and Trump be supportive of that legal strategy?  Is he crazy or not?

The bigger, infuriating question is why in the fuck are they even bringing it up if they aren't willing to use their mental health concerns to limit his access to weaponry.

dignin said:

rgambs said:

The straw man I keep mentioning, that keeps getting used still, is the assertion that we are talking about forcing librarians to carry AR-15's and that we want every teacher packing and ready to be a total badass commando.
That's not what we propose, but it's easier to argue against than the idea of a select few vetted and trained volunteers in a controlled system.
And then the slippery slope always follows, "what's next, kindergarteners with assault rifles?".

You were using it in the proper context. 

But the slippery slope argument is valid and should be considered and debated. At what point do we draw the line?

PJPOWER said:

rgambs said:

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

tbergs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mrussel1 said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

Ok, a teacher sacrifices his life to save students and a security cop cowered outside and the conclusion you draw is ass-backwards.
The lesson I'm hearing is that if the security cop didn't save the day a teacher never could...uh. 
DUH!  A teacher did!!!  How can you ignore such a doublethink??

Is this in response to me? I'm not sure I follow

No, a general response to mruss and my2hands and a few others who are using the cops cowardice to justify their feelings that teachers shouldn't be armed, even though a teacher laid his life on the line, unarmed.

Are you for arming teachers then?

I am for allowing physically fit and emotionally stable teachers to arm themselves voluntarily under strict guidelines and supervision if they have passed a thorough vetting, testing, and training program which would be an abbreviated version of police academy standards.

My point was, how can we expect a teacher to hunt down the shooter when a trained cop was unwilling to do it.  There's a difference between protecting the children (which too many teachers have done) and acting as a tactical response unit.  I'm very supportive of having armed police in the school.  My children's district already has cops in schools.  But they train full time for these situations.  Teachers do not.  
My wife and I agree that if teachers are armed in our school, they will be home schooled.  

There are a lot of cops that aren't well trained.

I know a bunch of cops that don't practice shooting.

I know a bunch of cops that retired NEVER un-holstering their weapon.

The cop that was there at the Florida school resigned for a reason, he should have never been there in the first place.

Right, lots of cops shouldn't be cops and lots of teachers shouldn't be teachers yet now if they want to be armed at their profession as well they can. Both professions go through background checks, but the intensity of training requirements and type of background vary by state. So the same place that hires shitty cops is going to hire shitty teachers, right? Either way, how many wannabe cops are out there compared to wannabe teachers? Can we at least admit that there are plenty of teachers who shouldn't be allowed to have a gun either, but now we're saying let them bring it to school so they can engage the threat if they want? What a nightmare for school districts to sort that out from an admin perspective.

So what if your teacher who wants to carry a gun fails his mental health/psych check or training? What impact will that have on their teaching and their job security? This isn't a straw man theory, it's a strong possibility to consider. Any teachers on here that had to pass a pysch/mental health background to become a teacher? Serious question. All cops in MN have to pass a psych to get hired. You take an MMPI and meet with a pyschologist. Sometimes you even need to take the California Psych. Inventory. Are we going to ensure the same standard for our armed teachers.

It's fucking dumb that not all gun owners at least need to pass an initial pysch/mental health screening. It would decrease gun violence and suicide by so much.

There is a flaw to this thinking.  Shooters on trial don't ever get to plea insanity because they aren't.  So the screening wouldn't do much in stopping the shootings.

I do agree that teachers should not carry though.

This is a great point that I was thinking about the other day.  All these NRA people (and Trump) talking about "this psychopath", this "crazy person", etc.  Do we think this person qualifies for an insanity plea?  Will the NRA and Trump be supportive of that legal strategy?  Is he crazy or not?

The bigger, infuriating question is why in the fuck are they even bringing it up if they aren't willing to use their mental health concerns to limit his access to weaponry.

Maybe because our mental health system in general is broken.  Are people really getting the type of treatment that they need?  Coming from a background career in mental health/psychology, I can tell you that the system is flooded and there are plenty of people getting over-prescribed psychotropic medications.  Many of these medications can result in psychotic behavior or suicidal/homicidal tendencies when in appropriately prescribed for the wrong mental health problems.  The problem is that, for the vast majority, they probably do not cause psychotic or homicidal behavior and may actually reduce those tendencies (if they existed in the first place), but prescribed to the “wrong person”, can be devastating.  I think that there is definitively either a lack of appropriate mental healthcare in the US, resulting from stigmas, perceptions of weakness, or just getting the wrong kind of treatment all together.  
I do not think that it makes sense to restrict the rights of someone simply because they are being treated for a mental health issue, though, as the vast majority of people getting treatment for depression or anxiety are probably not homicidal maniacs.  We do need to do a better job at correctly evaluating those that are, though.
I think that this is yet another place where the US healthcare system drops the ball compared to other countries.

tempo_n_groove said:

tbergs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mrussel1 said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

Ok, a teacher sacrifices his life to save students and a security cop cowered outside and the conclusion you draw is ass-backwards.
The lesson I'm hearing is that if the security cop didn't save the day a teacher never could...uh. 
DUH!  A teacher did!!!  How can you ignore such a doublethink??

Is this in response to me? I'm not sure I follow

No, a general response to mruss and my2hands and a few others who are using the cops cowardice to justify their feelings that teachers shouldn't be armed, even though a teacher laid his life on the line, unarmed.

Are you for arming teachers then?

I am for allowing physically fit and emotionally stable teachers to arm themselves voluntarily under strict guidelines and supervision if they have passed a thorough vetting, testing, and training program which would be an abbreviated version of police academy standards.

My point was, how can we expect a teacher to hunt down the shooter when a trained cop was unwilling to do it.  There's a difference between protecting the children (which too many teachers have done) and acting as a tactical response unit.  I'm very supportive of having armed police in the school.  My children's district already has cops in schools.  But they train full time for these situations.  Teachers do not.  
My wife and I agree that if teachers are armed in our school, they will be home schooled.  

There are a lot of cops that aren't well trained.

I know a bunch of cops that don't practice shooting.

I know a bunch of cops that retired NEVER un-holstering their weapon.

The cop that was there at the Florida school resigned for a reason, he should have never been there in the first place.

Right, lots of cops shouldn't be cops and lots of teachers shouldn't be teachers yet now if they want to be armed at their profession as well they can. Both professions go through background checks, but the intensity of training requirements and type of background vary by state. So the same place that hires shitty cops is going to hire shitty teachers, right? Either way, how many wannabe cops are out there compared to wannabe teachers? Can we at least admit that there are plenty of teachers who shouldn't be allowed to have a gun either, but now we're saying let them bring it to school so they can engage the threat if they want? What a nightmare for school districts to sort that out from an admin perspective.

So what if your teacher who wants to carry a gun fails his mental health/psych check or training? What impact will that have on their teaching and their job security? This isn't a straw man theory, it's a strong possibility to consider. Any teachers on here that had to pass a pysch/mental health background to become a teacher? Serious question. All cops in MN have to pass a psych to get hired. You take an MMPI and meet with a pyschologist. Sometimes you even need to take the California Psych. Inventory. Are we going to ensure the same standard for our armed teachers.

It's fucking dumb that not all gun owners at least need to pass an initial pysch/mental health screening. It would decrease gun violence and suicide by so much.

There is a flaw to this thinking.  Shooters on trial don't ever get to plea insanity because they aren't.  So the screening wouldn't do much in stopping the shootings.

I do agree that teachers should not carry though.

my2hands said:

PJPOWER said:

tbergs said:

Leaving it up to someone with a gun to stop a shooter, or shooters, is a crapshoot. You can get a hero type who would lay down their life when unarmed, a loose cannon type like a George Zimmerman that may shoot someone they perceived as a threat or a licensed cop milking his/her retirement who isn't in the least bit interested in taking on someone with an assault rifle. None of them are a solution to making schools safer. They're feel good responses from people who have seen too many movies where the good guy always wins under pressure. Focusing on the idea of arming more people allows for nothing to change while people get a false sense of security.

If all airports did after 9/11 was allow more "good guys" to carry guns on planes would that have been an acceptable solution to anyone here?

If I remember correctly, most airlines started putting armed air marshals on planes after 911...now why do you think they would do that?

They didn't arm the flight attendants and pilots, they used people whose only job is security/law enforcement... 

Your support for arming teachers, is the same as arming the flight attendants, not using air Marshalls

Do people realize most public schools in america have an armed presence already? Every public school in my state has an armed police officer present

PJPOWER... do you have any ideas you support besides guns in America's classrooms?

Kat said:

I think the Second Amendment should be followed exactly as the Founding Fathers intended. Everyone with a modern gun should turn it in and get a musket exactly like the ones the FF were talking about when that amendment was written. That will take care of assault rifles.

Here's hoping the insanity will stop.

Kat said:

I think the Second Amendment should be followed exactly as the Founding Fathers intended. Everyone with a modern gun should turn it in and get a musket exactly like the ones the FF were talking about when that amendment was written. That will take care of assault rifles.

Here's hoping the insanity will stop.