America's Gun Violence

tempo_n_groove said:

tbergs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mrussel1 said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

Ok, a teacher sacrifices his life to save students and a security cop cowered outside and the conclusion you draw is ass-backwards.
The lesson I'm hearing is that if the security cop didn't save the day a teacher never could...uh. 
DUH!  A teacher did!!!  How can you ignore such a doublethink??

Is this in response to me? I'm not sure I follow

No, a general response to mruss and my2hands and a few others who are using the cops cowardice to justify their feelings that teachers shouldn't be armed, even though a teacher laid his life on the line, unarmed.

Are you for arming teachers then?

I am for allowing physically fit and emotionally stable teachers to arm themselves voluntarily under strict guidelines and supervision if they have passed a thorough vetting, testing, and training program which would be an abbreviated version of police academy standards.

My point was, how can we expect a teacher to hunt down the shooter when a trained cop was unwilling to do it.  There's a difference between protecting the children (which too many teachers have done) and acting as a tactical response unit.  I'm very supportive of having armed police in the school.  My children's district already has cops in schools.  But they train full time for these situations.  Teachers do not.  
My wife and I agree that if teachers are armed in our school, they will be home schooled.  

There are a lot of cops that aren't well trained.

I know a bunch of cops that don't practice shooting.

I know a bunch of cops that retired NEVER un-holstering their weapon.

The cop that was there at the Florida school resigned for a reason, he should have never been there in the first place.

Right, lots of cops shouldn't be cops and lots of teachers shouldn't be teachers yet now if they want to be armed at their profession as well they can. Both professions go through background checks, but the intensity of training requirements and type of background vary by state. So the same place that hires shitty cops is going to hire shitty teachers, right? Either way, how many wannabe cops are out there compared to wannabe teachers? Can we at least admit that there are plenty of teachers who shouldn't be allowed to have a gun either, but now we're saying let them bring it to school so they can engage the threat if they want? What a nightmare for school districts to sort that out from an admin perspective.

So what if your teacher who wants to carry a gun fails his mental health/psych check or training? What impact will that have on their teaching and their job security? This isn't a straw man theory, it's a strong possibility to consider. Any teachers on here that had to pass a pysch/mental health background to become a teacher? Serious question. All cops in MN have to pass a psych to get hired. You take an MMPI and meet with a pyschologist. Sometimes you even need to take the California Psych. Inventory. Are we going to ensure the same standard for our armed teachers.

It's fucking dumb that not all gun owners at least need to pass an initial pysch/mental health screening. It would decrease gun violence and suicide by so much.

There is a flaw to this thinking.  Shooters on trial don't ever get to plea insanity because they aren't.  So the screening wouldn't do much in stopping the shootings.

I do agree that teachers should not carry though.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJPOWER said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

If the country's response to the growing epidemic is more guns- arming teachers- and that is the only response... then why not?

A couple things to that though:
1. It's the weakest response you could deliver. It's a feeble jab at the problem and to be honest... it's counterproductive and comical.
2. Teachers will not- even with exceptional training- become Chuck Norris and handle the problem like movies depict 'heroes with guns doing' (look at the performance of the sheriff in Florida. 
3. 80% of the teaching staff are women. I'm not necessarily saying a woman is incapable of handling that responsibility, but typically speaking... men are usually assigned such a duty. The drawing pool is going to be pretty slim for some schools.
4. In some schools, the shooting can start in another section of the school. By the time the 'armed teacher' stops his/her lesson... gets to the quick safe... arms his/herself... races towards the scene... places themselves in a situation to take aim on the active shooter armed with a far more superior weapon... carnage has already occurred. And this is best case scenario!
5. I would anticipate a myriad of undesirable problems stemming from this course of action. These problems are far more likely to unfold than any situation where the 'armed teacher response' works as hoped for.

I'll go back to my previous suggestion: if you are not prepared to take assault rifles and their kin off the shelf and insist on selling them to anyone who wants one... then place navy seals in the schools. Take your soldiers off their bases and deploy them in your learning institutions to combat your heavily armed and disenfranchised psychopaths intent on mayhem.

Wow, here I thought you were going to list some data on armed teachers, but instead we got a list of assumptions based on inherent fear of guns and people using them defensively.  I’ll check back later.

By the way... let's not use 'fear' too freely when gun advocates base every single one of their arguments on it.

dignin said:

I don't think some people here know what a straw man argument really means. Might want to look it up before using it.

Gern Blansten said:

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/375222-florida-school-shooting-victim-on-trump-call-ive-never-been-so

 President Trump's phone call with a survivor of last week's mass shooting at a Parkland, Florida high school angered the student, who said her conversation with the president "didn't make me feel better in the slightest."

Samantha Fuentes, a Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School student who was shot in both legs during last week's attack, recounted her call in an interview with The New York Times.

"He said he heard I was a big fan of his, and then he said 'I'm a big fan of yours, too,' " Fuentes told the Times.

"I'm pretty sure he made that up," she continued. "Talking to the president, I've never been so unimpressed by a person in all my life. He didn't make me feel better in the slightest."

Fuentes told the Times that Trump had called the gunman a “sick puppy” and said “‘oh boy, oh boy, oh boy,’ like, seven times.”

Fuentes's phone call with the president follows a "listening session" Trump held at the White House on Wednesday with parents of victims as well as survivors of last week's mass shooting that killed 17 people and wounded others when a 19-year-old alleged gunman attacked the school with an AR-15.

During the meeting, Trump was spotted holding hand-written talking points to address during the meeting, including one that simply read, "I hear you."

We’re going to be very strong on background checks,” Trump said Wednesday. “There are many ideas I have, there are many ideas that other people have, and we’re going to pick out the strongest ideas, the most important ideas.” 

Fucking hilarious...

PJPOWER said:

dignin said:

I don't think some people here know what a straw man argument really means. Might want to look it up before using it.

Oddly enough, you *almost just used one here, lol

PJPOWER said:

dignin said:

PJPOWER said:

dignin said:

I don't think some people here know what a straw man argument really means. Might want to look it up before using it.

Oddly enough, you *almost just used one here, lol

Hey great, it's the worst offender. Can you explain the examples of straw men that have been apparently used so often in this arming teachers debate?

They often start with people saying “all of these gun nuts just think...”

oftenreading said:

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

tbergs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mrussel1 said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

Ok, a teacher sacrifices his life to save students and a security cop cowered outside and the conclusion you draw is ass-backwards.
The lesson I'm hearing is that if the security cop didn't save the day a teacher never could...uh. 
DUH!  A teacher did!!!  How can you ignore such a doublethink??

Is this in response to me? I'm not sure I follow

No, a general response to mruss and my2hands and a few others who are using the cops cowardice to justify their feelings that teachers shouldn't be armed, even though a teacher laid his life on the line, unarmed.

Are you for arming teachers then?

I am for allowing physically fit and emotionally stable teachers to arm themselves voluntarily under strict guidelines and supervision if they have passed a thorough vetting, testing, and training program which would be an abbreviated version of police academy standards.

My point was, how can we expect a teacher to hunt down the shooter when a trained cop was unwilling to do it.  There's a difference between protecting the children (which too many teachers have done) and acting as a tactical response unit.  I'm very supportive of having armed police in the school.  My children's district already has cops in schools.  But they train full time for these situations.  Teachers do not.  
My wife and I agree that if teachers are armed in our school, they will be home schooled.  

There are a lot of cops that aren't well trained.

I know a bunch of cops that don't practice shooting.

I know a bunch of cops that retired NEVER un-holstering their weapon.

The cop that was there at the Florida school resigned for a reason, he should have never been there in the first place.

Right, lots of cops shouldn't be cops and lots of teachers shouldn't be teachers yet now if they want to be armed at their profession as well they can. Both professions go through background checks, but the intensity of training requirements and type of background vary by state. So the same place that hires shitty cops is going to hire shitty teachers, right? Either way, how many wannabe cops are out there compared to wannabe teachers? Can we at least admit that there are plenty of teachers who shouldn't be allowed to have a gun either, but now we're saying let them bring it to school so they can engage the threat if they want? What a nightmare for school districts to sort that out from an admin perspective.

So what if your teacher who wants to carry a gun fails his mental health/psych check or training? What impact will that have on their teaching and their job security? This isn't a straw man theory, it's a strong possibility to consider. Any teachers on here that had to pass a pysch/mental health background to become a teacher? Serious question. All cops in MN have to pass a psych to get hired. You take an MMPI and meet with a pyschologist. Sometimes you even need to take the California Psych. Inventory. Are we going to ensure the same standard for our armed teachers.

It's fucking dumb that not all gun owners at least need to pass an initial pysch/mental health screening. It would decrease gun violence and suicide by so much.

There is a flaw to this thinking.  Shooters on trial don't ever get to plea insanity because they aren't.  So the screening wouldn't do much in stopping the shootings.

I do agree that teachers should not carry though.

This is a great point that I was thinking about the other day.  All these NRA people (and Trump) talking about "this psychopath", this "crazy person", etc.  Do we think this person qualifies for an insanity plea?  Will the NRA and Trump be supportive of that legal strategy?  Is he crazy or not?

It's not up to Trump or the NRA or you or I to determine if an accused is "crazy". None of them have any knowledge in that legal issue. Why would we care if Trump "supports" a particular legal strategy??

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

tbergs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mrussel1 said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

Ok, a teacher sacrifices his life to save students and a security cop cowered outside and the conclusion you draw is ass-backwards.
The lesson I'm hearing is that if the security cop didn't save the day a teacher never could...uh. 
DUH!  A teacher did!!!  How can you ignore such a doublethink??

Is this in response to me? I'm not sure I follow

No, a general response to mruss and my2hands and a few others who are using the cops cowardice to justify their feelings that teachers shouldn't be armed, even though a teacher laid his life on the line, unarmed.

Are you for arming teachers then?

I am for allowing physically fit and emotionally stable teachers to arm themselves voluntarily under strict guidelines and supervision if they have passed a thorough vetting, testing, and training program which would be an abbreviated version of police academy standards.

My point was, how can we expect a teacher to hunt down the shooter when a trained cop was unwilling to do it.  There's a difference between protecting the children (which too many teachers have done) and acting as a tactical response unit.  I'm very supportive of having armed police in the school.  My children's district already has cops in schools.  But they train full time for these situations.  Teachers do not.  
My wife and I agree that if teachers are armed in our school, they will be home schooled.  

There are a lot of cops that aren't well trained.

I know a bunch of cops that don't practice shooting.

I know a bunch of cops that retired NEVER un-holstering their weapon.

The cop that was there at the Florida school resigned for a reason, he should have never been there in the first place.

Right, lots of cops shouldn't be cops and lots of teachers shouldn't be teachers yet now if they want to be armed at their profession as well they can. Both professions go through background checks, but the intensity of training requirements and type of background vary by state. So the same place that hires shitty cops is going to hire shitty teachers, right? Either way, how many wannabe cops are out there compared to wannabe teachers? Can we at least admit that there are plenty of teachers who shouldn't be allowed to have a gun either, but now we're saying let them bring it to school so they can engage the threat if they want? What a nightmare for school districts to sort that out from an admin perspective.

So what if your teacher who wants to carry a gun fails his mental health/psych check or training? What impact will that have on their teaching and their job security? This isn't a straw man theory, it's a strong possibility to consider. Any teachers on here that had to pass a pysch/mental health background to become a teacher? Serious question. All cops in MN have to pass a psych to get hired. You take an MMPI and meet with a pyschologist. Sometimes you even need to take the California Psych. Inventory. Are we going to ensure the same standard for our armed teachers.

It's fucking dumb that not all gun owners at least need to pass an initial pysch/mental health screening. It would decrease gun violence and suicide by so much.

There is a flaw to this thinking.  Shooters on trial don't ever get to plea insanity because they aren't.  So the screening wouldn't do much in stopping the shootings.

I do agree that teachers should not carry though.

This is a great point that I was thinking about the other day.  All these NRA people (and Trump) talking about "this psychopath", this "crazy person", etc.  Do we think this person qualifies for an insanity plea?  Will the NRA and Trump be supportive of that legal strategy?  Is he crazy or not?