America's Gun Violence

mrussel1 · February 2018

rgambs said:

mrussel1 said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

Ok, a teacher sacrifices his life to save students and a security cop cowered outside and the conclusion you draw is ass-backwards.
The lesson I'm hearing is that if the security cop didn't save the day a teacher never could...uh.
DUH! A teacher did!!! How can you ignore such a doublethink??

Is this in response to me? I'm not sure I follow

No, a general response to mruss and my2hands and a few others who are using the cops cowardice to justify their feelings that teachers shouldn't be armed, even though a teacher laid his life on the line, unarmed.

Are you for arming teachers then?

I am for allowing physically fit and emotionally stable teachers to arm themselves voluntarily under strict guidelines and supervision if they have passed a thorough vetting, testing, and training program which would be an abbreviated version of police academy standards.

My point was, how can we expect a teacher to hunt down the shooter when a trained cop was unwilling to do it. There's a difference between protecting the children (which too many teachers have done) and acting as a tactical response unit. I'm very supportive of having armed police in the school. My children's district already has cops in schools. But they train full time for these situations. Teachers do not.
My wife and I agree that if teachers are armed in our school, they will be home schooled.

We can't expect them to, we can only hope they can and allow them the opportunity to try if they seem capable and willing.

I'd rather have trained police/resource officer on site AND assault rifles off the street. I'm really against the need/desire for a teacher to have a weapon in the classroom. I just cannot wrap my head around that.

A few years ago, my brother in law, who was a high school teacher at the time, got a license to carry here in VA. He came in my house with it strapped to his waist and chambered. I made him leave and put it in his car. I mentioned earlier that I have my own cache in my cabinet in the closet so I'm not anti-2nd. But weapons held by amateurs makes me very, very nervous. Teachers, who I don't really know, would make me more nervous. It's an accident waiting to happen.

tbergs · February 2018

tempo_n_groove said:

mrussel1 said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

Ok, a teacher sacrifices his life to save students and a security cop cowered outside and the conclusion you draw is ass-backwards.
The lesson I'm hearing is that if the security cop didn't save the day a teacher never could...uh.
DUH! A teacher did!!! How can you ignore such a doublethink??

Is this in response to me? I'm not sure I follow

No, a general response to mruss and my2hands and a few others who are using the cops cowardice to justify their feelings that teachers shouldn't be armed, even though a teacher laid his life on the line, unarmed.

Are you for arming teachers then?

I am for allowing physically fit and emotionally stable teachers to arm themselves voluntarily under strict guidelines and supervision if they have passed a thorough vetting, testing, and training program which would be an abbreviated version of police academy standards.

My point was, how can we expect a teacher to hunt down the shooter when a trained cop was unwilling to do it. There's a difference between protecting the children (which too many teachers have done) and acting as a tactical response unit. I'm very supportive of having armed police in the school. My children's district already has cops in schools. But they train full time for these situations. Teachers do not.
My wife and I agree that if teachers are armed in our school, they will be home schooled.

There are a lot of cops that aren't well trained.

I know a bunch of cops that don't practice shooting.

I know a bunch of cops that retired NEVER un-holstering their weapon.

The cop that was there at the Florida school resigned for a reason, he should have never been there in the first place.

Right, lots of cops shouldn't be cops and lots of teachers shouldn't be teachers yet now if they want to be armed at their profession as well they can. Both professions go through background checks, but the intensity of training requirements and type of background vary by state. So the same place that hires shitty cops is going to hire shitty teachers, right? Either way, how many wannabe cops are out there compared to wannabe teachers? Can we at least admit that there are plenty of teachers who shouldn't be allowed to have a gun either, but now we're saying let them bring it to school so they can engage the threat if they want? What a nightmare for school districts to sort that out from an admin perspective.

So what if your teacher who wants to carry a gun fails his mental health/psych check or training? What impact will that have on their teaching and their job security? This isn't a straw man theory, it's a strong possibility to consider. Any teachers on here that had to pass a pysch/mental health background to become a teacher? Serious question. All cops in MN have to pass a psych to get hired. You take an MMPI and meet with a pyschologist. Sometimes you even need to take the California Psych. Inventory. Are we going to ensure the same standard for our armed teachers.

It's fucking dumb that not all gun owners at least need to pass an initial pysch/mental health screening. It would decrease gun violence and suicide by so much.

mrussel1 · February 2018

Gern Blansten said:

I thought tRump's speech/rambling was interesting yesterday in that he referred to posting signs outside schools stating that there would be armed individuals inside and how effective this would be. He then rambled about maybe 10% of the teachers, or 20% maybe 40%, etc.

Just put up the fucking signs whether they are armed or not. If that is a deterrent then fucking do it.

It's like the ADT sign you stole from your neighbor.

Gern Blansten · February 2018

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/375222-florida-school-shooting-victim-on-trump-call-ive-never-been-so

President Trump's phone call with a survivor of last week's mass shooting at a Parkland, Florida high school angered the student, who said her conversation with the president "didn't make me feel better in the slightest."

Samantha Fuentes, a Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School student who was shot in both legs during last week's attack, recounted her call in an interview with The New York Times.

"He said he heard I was a big fan of his, and then he said 'I'm a big fan of yours, too,' " Fuentes told the Times.

"I'm pretty sure he made that up," she continued. "Talking to the president, I've never been so unimpressed by a person in all my life. He didn't make me feel better in the slightest."

Fuentes told the Times that Trump had called the gunman a “sick puppy” and said “‘oh boy, oh boy, oh boy,’ like, seven times.”

Fuentes's phone call with the president follows a "listening session" Trump held at the White House on Wednesday with parents of victims as well as survivors of last week's mass shooting that killed 17 people and wounded others when a 19-year-old alleged gunman attacked the school with an AR-15.

During the meeting, Trump was spotted holding hand-written talking points to address during the meeting, including one that simply read, "I hear you."

We’re going to be very strong on background checks,” Trump said Wednesday. “There are many ideas I have, there are many ideas that other people have, and we’re going to pick out the strongest ideas, the most important ideas.”

Fucking hilarious...

dignin · February 2018

Most of the people proposing for teachers to have guns in schools want them to be well trained and have strict background checks, but they are against those measures for anyone else.

mrussel1 · February 2018

Halifax2TheMax said:

benjs said:

Can we summarize the suggested actions (for either handling the gun problem in schools or public areas)? Not the reasons behind them, just strictly the actions themselves. At this point, I think I’ve heard:

1. Arm teachers with tasers
2. Arm teachers with guns
3. Deploy armed guards in schools
4. Deploy armed guards in public facilities
5. Ban guns
6. Ban assault type weapons
7. Increase gun control

Have I missed any?

Limit magazine capacity.
stronger background checks

Three day waiting period nationally
Close the gun show loophole

PJPOWER · February 2018

tbergs said:

Leaving it up to someone with a gun to stop a shooter, or shooters, is a crapshoot. You can get a hero type who would lay down their life when unarmed, a loose cannon type like a George Zimmerman that may shoot someone they perceived as a threat or a licensed cop milking his/her retirement who isn't in the least bit interested in taking on someone with an assault rifle. None of them are a solution to making schools safer. They're feel good responses from people who have seen too many movies where the good guy always wins under pressure. Focusing on the idea of arming more people allows for nothing to change while people get a false sense of security.

If all airports did after 9/11 was allow more "good guys" to carry guns on planes would that have been an acceptable solution to anyone here?

If I remember correctly, most airlines started putting armed air marshals on planes after 911...now why do you think they would do that?

PJPOWER · February 2018

dignin said:

Most of the people proposing for teachers to have guns in schools want them to be well trained and have strict background checks, but they are against those measures for anyone else.

Well I think that the standards should be above and beyond for teachers that carry than your every day Joe who is not responsible for keeping children safe.

dignin · February 2018

PJPOWER said:

dignin said:

Most of the people proposing for teachers to have guns in schools want them to be well trained and have strict background checks, but they are against those measures for anyone else.

Well I think that the standards should be above and beyond for teachers that carry than your every day Joe who is not responsible for keeping children safe.

I bet a lot of gun owners are parents, who are responsible for keeping their children safe. Why shouldn't they be held to the same standards?

tempo_n_groove · February 2018

tbergs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mrussel1 said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

Ok, a teacher sacrifices his life to save students and a security cop cowered outside and the conclusion you draw is ass-backwards.
The lesson I'm hearing is that if the security cop didn't save the day a teacher never could...uh.
DUH! A teacher did!!! How can you ignore such a doublethink??

Is this in response to me? I'm not sure I follow

No, a general response to mruss and my2hands and a few others who are using the cops cowardice to justify their feelings that teachers shouldn't be armed, even though a teacher laid his life on the line, unarmed.

Are you for arming teachers then?

I am for allowing physically fit and emotionally stable teachers to arm themselves voluntarily under strict guidelines and supervision if they have passed a thorough vetting, testing, and training program which would be an abbreviated version of police academy standards.

My point was, how can we expect a teacher to hunt down the shooter when a trained cop was unwilling to do it. There's a difference between protecting the children (which too many teachers have done) and acting as a tactical response unit. I'm very supportive of having armed police in the school. My children's district already has cops in schools. But they train full time for these situations. Teachers do not.
My wife and I agree that if teachers are armed in our school, they will be home schooled.

There are a lot of cops that aren't well trained.

I know a bunch of cops that don't practice shooting.

I know a bunch of cops that retired NEVER un-holstering their weapon.

The cop that was there at the Florida school resigned for a reason, he should have never been there in the first place.

Right, lots of cops shouldn't be cops and lots of teachers shouldn't be teachers yet now if they want to be armed at their profession as well they can. Both professions go through background checks, but the intensity of training requirements and type of background vary by state. So the same place that hires shitty cops is going to hire shitty teachers, right? Either way, how many wannabe cops are out there compared to wannabe teachers? Can we at least admit that there are plenty of teachers who shouldn't be allowed to have a gun either, but now we're saying let them bring it to school so they can engage the threat if they want? What a nightmare for school districts to sort that out from an admin perspective.

So what if your teacher who wants to carry a gun fails his mental health/psych check or training? What impact will that have on their teaching and their job security? This isn't a straw man theory, it's a strong possibility to consider. Any teachers on here that had to pass a pysch/mental health background to become a teacher? Serious question. All cops in MN have to pass a psych to get hired. You take an MMPI and meet with a pyschologist. Sometimes you even need to take the California Psych. Inventory. Are we going to ensure the same standard for our armed teachers.

It's fucking dumb that not all gun owners at least need to pass an initial pysch/mental health screening. It would decrease gun violence and suicide by so much.

There is a flaw to this thinking. Shooters on trial don't ever get to plea insanity because they aren't. So the screening wouldn't do much in stopping the shootings.

I do agree that teachers should not carry though.

PJPOWER · February 2018

rgambs said:

mrussel1 said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

Ok, a teacher sacrifices his life to save students and a security cop cowered outside and the conclusion you draw is ass-backwards.
The lesson I'm hearing is that if the security cop didn't save the day a teacher never could...uh.
DUH! A teacher did!!! How can you ignore such a doublethink??

Is this in response to me? I'm not sure I follow

No, a general response to mruss and my2hands and a few others who are using the cops cowardice to justify their feelings that teachers shouldn't be armed, even though a teacher laid his life on the line, unarmed.

Are you for arming teachers then?

I am for allowing physically fit and emotionally stable teachers to arm themselves voluntarily under strict guidelines and supervision if they have passed a thorough vetting, testing, and training program which would be an abbreviated version of police academy standards.

My point was, how can we expect a teacher to hunt down the shooter when a trained cop was unwilling to do it. There's a difference between protecting the children (which too many teachers have done) and acting as a tactical response unit. I'm very supportive of having armed police in the school. My children's district already has cops in schools. But they train full time for these situations. Teachers do not.
My wife and I agree that if teachers are armed in our school, they will be home schooled.

We can't expect them to, we can only hope they can and allow them the opportunity to try if they seem capable and willing.

Or if they are backed into a corner and the only other option is to put their body between the gunman and students...at least they would have somewhat of a fighting chance. That teacher didn’t have the option of hiding behind a concrete barrier.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · February 2018

If the country's response to the growing epidemic is more guns- arming teachers- and that is the only response... then why not?

A couple things to that though:
1. It's the weakest response you could deliver. It's a feeble jab at the problem and to be honest... it's counterproductive and comical.
2. Teachers will not- even with exceptional training- become Chuck Norris and handle the problem like movies depict 'heroes with guns doing' (look at the performance of the sheriff in Florida.
3. 80% of the teaching staff are women. I'm not necessarily saying a woman is incapable of handling that responsibility, but typically speaking... men are usually assigned such a duty. The drawing pool is going to be pretty slim for some schools.
4. In some schools, the shooting can start in another section of the school. By the time the 'armed teacher' stops his/her lesson... gets to the quick safe... arms his/herself... races towards the scene... places themselves in a situation to take aim on the active shooter armed with a far more superior weapon... carnage has already occurred. And this is best case scenario!
5. I would anticipate a myriad of undesirable problems stemming from this course of action. These problems are far more likely to unfold than any situation where the 'armed teacher response' works as hoped for.

I'll go back to my previous suggestion: if you are not prepared to take assault rifles and their kin off the shelf and insist on selling them to anyone who wants one... then place navy seals in the schools. Take your soldiers off their bases and deploy them in your learning institutions to combat your heavily armed and disenfranchised psychopaths intent on mayhem.

PJPOWER · February 2018

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

If the country's response to the growing epidemic is more guns- arming teachers- and that is the only response... then why not?

A couple things to that though:
1. It's the weakest response you could deliver. It's a feeble jab at the problem and to be honest... it's counterproductive and comical.
2. Teachers will not- even with exceptional training- become Chuck Norris and handle the problem like movies depict 'heroes with guns doing' (look at the performance of the sheriff in Florida.
3. 80% of the teaching staff are women. I'm not necessarily saying a woman is incapable of handling that responsibility, but typically speaking... men are usually assigned such a duty. The drawing pool is going to be pretty slim for some schools.
4. In some schools, the shooting can start in another section of the school. By the time the 'armed teacher' stops his/her lesson... gets to the quick safe... arms his/herself... races towards the scene... places themselves in a situation to take aim on the active shooter armed with a far more superior weapon... carnage has already occurred. And this is best case scenario!
5. I would anticipate a myriad of undesirable problems stemming from this course of action. These problems are far more likely to unfold than any situation where the 'armed teacher response' works as hoped for.

I'll go back to my previous suggestion: if you are not prepared to take assault rifles and their kin off the shelf and insist on selling them to anyone who wants one... then place navy seals in the schools. Take your soldiers off their bases and deploy them in your learning institutions to combat your heavily armed and disenfranchised psychopaths intent on mayhem.

Wow, here I thought you were going to list some data on armed teachers, but instead we got a list of assumptions based on inherent fear of guns and people using them defensively. I’ll check back later.

PJPOWER · February 2018

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

If the country's response to the growing epidemic is more guns- arming teachers- and that is the only response... then why not?

A couple things to that though:
1. It's the weakest response you could deliver. It's a feeble jab at the problem and to be honest... it's counterproductive and comical.
2. Teachers will not- even with exceptional training- become Chuck Norris and handle the problem like movies depict 'heroes with guns doing' (look at the performance of the sheriff in Florida.
3. 80% of the teaching staff are women. I'm not necessarily saying a woman is incapable of handling that responsibility, but typically speaking... men are usually assigned such a duty. The drawing pool is going to be pretty slim for some schools.
4. In some schools, the shooting can start in another section of the school. By the time the 'armed teacher' stops his/her lesson... gets to the quick safe... arms his/herself... races towards the scene... places themselves in a situation to take aim on the active shooter armed with a far more superior weapon... carnage has already occurred. And this is best case scenario!
5. I would anticipate a myriad of undesirable problems stemming from this course of action. These problems are far more likely to unfold than any situation where the 'armed teacher response' works as hoped for.

I'll go back to my previous suggestion: if you are not prepared to take assault rifles and their kin off the shelf and insist on selling them to anyone who wants one... then place navy seals in the schools. Take your soldiers off their bases and deploy them in your learning institutions to combat your heavily armed and disenfranchised psychopaths intent on mayhem.

Wow, here I thought you were going to list some data on armed teachers, but instead we got a list of assumptions based on inherent fear of guns and people using them defensively. I’ll check back later.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · February 2018

Well if you can provide me with some data on armed teachers, I'd be happy to review it and ease my troubled mind.

mcgruff10 · February 2018

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Well if you can provide me with some data on armed teachers, I'd be happy to review it and ease my troubled mind.

How can you provide data on something that hasn’t happened yet?

PJPOWER · February 2018

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Well if you can provide me with some data on armed teachers, I'd be happy to review it and ease my troubled mind.

There’s a lot of armed schools around TX, and they have been for a few years now. No mass murders there or teachers going on killing sprees in those schools. I am not going to come up with a bunch of straw man arguments or counter scenarios, though, as that seems unproductive and really isn’t going to change any of your minds. Similarly to how those things aren’t really going to change my mind on the reverse end of the subject.
Here is some data though if you care to read...”172 districts”:
http://www.caller.com/story/news/education/2018/02/22/texas-172-school-districts-allow-teachers-staff-armed/364677002/

mrussel1 · February 2018

PJPOWER said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Well if you can provide me with some data on armed teachers, I'd be happy to review it and ease my troubled mind.

There’s a lot of armed schools around TX, and they have been for a few years now. No mass murders there or teachers going on killing sprees in those schools. I am not going to come up with a bunch of straw man arguments or counter scenarios, though, as that seems unproductive and really isn’t going to change any of your minds. Similarly to how those things aren’t really going to change my mind on the reverse end of the subject.

Armed teachers or armed security? Big difference. We have armed a police presence in schools here in VA. I'm fine with that. Arming teachers is completely different.

PJPOWER · February 2018

mrussel1 said:

PJPOWER said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Well if you can provide me with some data on armed teachers, I'd be happy to review it and ease my troubled mind.

There’s a lot of armed schools around TX, and they have been for a few years now. No mass murders there or teachers going on killing sprees in those schools. I am not going to come up with a bunch of straw man arguments or counter scenarios, though, as that seems unproductive and really isn’t going to change any of your minds. Similarly to how those things aren’t really going to change my mind on the reverse end of the subject.

Armed teachers or armed security? Big difference. We have armed a police presence in schools here in VA. I'm fine with that. Arming teachers is completely different.

Both, some have secretly armed teachers, others have armed security in another form or fashion.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · February 2018

PJPOWER said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

If the country's response to the growing epidemic is more guns- arming teachers- and that is the only response... then why not?

A couple things to that though:
1. It's the weakest response you could deliver. It's a feeble jab at the problem and to be honest... it's counterproductive and comical.
2. Teachers will not- even with exceptional training- become Chuck Norris and handle the problem like movies depict 'heroes with guns doing' (look at the performance of the sheriff in Florida.
3. 80% of the teaching staff are women. I'm not necessarily saying a woman is incapable of handling that responsibility, but typically speaking... men are usually assigned such a duty. The drawing pool is going to be pretty slim for some schools.
4. In some schools, the shooting can start in another section of the school. By the time the 'armed teacher' stops his/her lesson... gets to the quick safe... arms his/herself... races towards the scene... places themselves in a situation to take aim on the active shooter armed with a far more superior weapon... carnage has already occurred. And this is best case scenario!
5. I would anticipate a myriad of undesirable problems stemming from this course of action. These problems are far more likely to unfold than any situation where the 'armed teacher response' works as hoped for.

I'll go back to my previous suggestion: if you are not prepared to take assault rifles and their kin off the shelf and insist on selling them to anyone who wants one... then place navy seals in the schools. Take your soldiers off their bases and deploy them in your learning institutions to combat your heavily armed and disenfranchised psychopaths intent on mayhem.

Wow, here I thought you were going to list some data on armed teachers, but instead we got a list of assumptions based on inherent fear of guns and people using them defensively. I’ll check back later.

By the way... let's not use 'fear' too freely when gun advocates base every single one of their arguments on it.

America's Gun Violence

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