America's Gun Violence

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  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,569
    my2hands said:
    thanks to a powerful propaganda campaign by the gun lobby and the republican establishment that they have bought and own

    it's not about the right to BEAR arms, it's about the right to SELL arms

    .....don't forget the Russian bots that are pushing this too
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  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    PJPOWER said:
    I don’t think anyone is advocating “giving” them to the teachers or forcing/requiring them to be armed...I would not be supportive of this.  Allowing them to voluntarily arm themselves- yes (with mandatory strict training and certification).
    And when they inevitably become the active shooter?
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited February 2018
    my2hands said:
    And when they inevitably become the active shooter?
    What makes you think they would?  What about when they inevitably stop an active shooter?  Should we also disarm all law enforcement since they may become an active shooter?  That’s a weak argument.
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,569
    PJPOWER said:
    What makes you think they would?  What about when they inevitably stop an active shooter?  Should we also disarm all law enforcement since they may become an active shooter?  That’s a weak argument.


    But they're not law enforcement. They're fucking teachers. If this country, compared to the rest of the world proves anything, it's that more guns have lead to more gun violence.


    To me--its not that the teacher might become an active shooter (but you never know)....its that the likelihood of an accident with small children becomes a much greater risk. This is a dumb idea. Hire an armed security guard if you want. A kindergarten teacher teaching the alphabet with a loaded gun strapped to her person just sounds like the most asinine idea anyone has ever come up with.

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  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited February 2018


    But they're not law enforcement. They're fucking teachers. If this country, compared to the rest of the world proves anything, it's that more guns have lead to more gun violence.


    To me--its not that the teacher might become an active shooter (but you never know)....its that the likelihood of an accident with small children becomes a much greater risk. This is a dumb idea. Hire an armed security guard if you want. A kindergarten teacher teaching the alphabet with a loaded gun strapped to her person just sounds like the most asinine idea anyone has ever come up with.

    I respectfully disagree.  But thanks for truly enlightening me...
    on how redundant discussing this topic on the AMT is.  You said it is dumb, so it must be...

    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • riley540riley540 Denver Colorado Posts: 1,132
    Ban gun sales. Still 300 million guns already out there. Seize the weapons. Risk a war on American soil. Arm the teachers, liberals won’t have it. Take the guns, conservatives won’t have it. Spend efforts figuring out why certain people commit mass murder, and figure out how to stop these people. Reasonable but not talked about. If you think that guy wouldn’t have shot up the school if he couldn’t get an AR 15, you are in denial. I’m sorry, but banning AR15s will not stop mass murders in schools or anywhere else. We need to stop romanticizing these killers. These are human scum looking for a mark in a history book. 

    Ive states before, I do not own guns and personally do not really care for them. But I can’t see a van changing anything at all. Personally. I think it’s a good sounding solution that’s emotionally driven and not logically driven. 
  • stuckinlinestuckinline Posts: 3,385


    But they're not law enforcement. They're fucking teachers. If this country, compared to the rest of the world proves anything, it's that more guns have lead to more gun violence.


    To me--its not that the teacher might become an active shooter (but you never know)....its that the likelihood of an accident with small children becomes a much greater risk. This is a dumb idea. Hire an armed security guard if you want. A kindergarten teacher teaching the alphabet with a loaded gun strapped to her person just sounds like the most asinine idea anyone has ever come up with.

    Children, lets recite our abcs. A as in arsenal, B as in bullet, C as in cartridge.....
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    riley540 said:
    Ban gun sales. Still 300 million guns already out there. Seize the weapons. Risk a war on American soil. Arm the teachers, liberals won’t have it. Take the guns, conservatives won’t have it. Spend efforts figuring out why certain people commit mass murder, and figure out how to stop these people. Reasonable but not talked about. If you think that guy wouldn’t have shot up the school if he couldn’t get an AR 15, you are in denial. I’m sorry, but banning AR15s will not stop mass murders in schools or anywhere else. We need to stop romanticizing these killers. These are human scum looking for a mark in a history book. 

    Ive states before, I do not own guns and personally do not really care for them. But I can’t see a van changing anything at all. Personally. I think it’s a good sounding solution that’s emotionally driven and not logically driven. 
    But banning alcohol stopped people from drinking, don’t ya know.  Maybe that would have stopped people in other countries from drinking though...
  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,445
    riley540 said:
    Ban gun sales. Still 300 million guns already out there. Seize the weapons. Risk a war on American soil. Arm the teachers, liberals won’t have it. Take the guns, conservatives won’t have it. Spend efforts figuring out why certain people commit mass murder, and figure out how to stop these people. Reasonable but not talked about. If you think that guy wouldn’t have shot up the school if he couldn’t get an AR 15, you are in denial. I’m sorry, but banning AR15s will not stop mass murders in schools or anywhere else. We need to stop romanticizing these killers. These are human scum looking for a mark in a history book. 

    Ive states before, I do not own guns and personally do not really care for them. But I can’t see a van changing anything at all. Personally. I think it’s a good sounding solution that’s emotionally driven and not logically driven. 
    That's the most infeasible thing you wrote.  I'm not really sure we do romanticize them, but to whatever degree we do, how do we stop that?
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
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  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    my2hands said:
    Sounds like a prison to me. Such an awesome future for our children

    Best country in the world, my ass
    Sounds like a hospital to me.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • riley540riley540 Denver Colorado Posts: 1,132
    OnWis97 said:
    That's the most infeasible thing you wrote.  I'm not really sure we do romanticize them, but to whatever degree we do, how do we stop that?
    i don’t have a solution. Just stating what I see. Dylan Klebold is a famous name from columbine. We put these peopleall I’ver the news, internet, magazines, ect. And other sick twisted people see it. In a sick and twisted romantic way. So they think they can do it. It’s shitty fame. I know some smaller news outlets have started not showing pictures, or using the names of shooters and mass killers. Maybe it will help. I don’t really know. 

    I have no solution. Just talking what I’m thinking 
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Mar-A-Lago Posts: 21,507
    PJPOWER said:
    But banning alcohol stopped people from drinking, don’t ya know.  Maybe that would have stopped people in other countries from drinking though...
    I can't go into a school and drink a gallon of shit and kill 17 people
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
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  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited February 2018
    “Ohio Sheriff offers free concealed-carry classes for teachers”
    http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2018/02/ohio_sheriff_offers_free_conce.html
    Over 200 teachers signed up in one day.
    Guess some of you better move to Canada as it seems more and more schools are going this route...
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • riley540riley540 Denver Colorado Posts: 1,132
    I think convincing people to arm themsleves would be an easier path to take than to convinced armed people to unarm themselves. I just don’t mind. If people want to own guns that’s fine, if people don’t, that’s fine to me. All of my gun owning friends have never committed mass murder, so it doesn’t bug me
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,807
    Mag limits to 10 or 15 rounds is a great way to start. 
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Mar-A-Lago Posts: 21,507
    riley540 said:
    I think convincing people to arm themsleves would be an easier path to take than to convinced armed people to unarm themselves. I just don’t mind. If people want to own guns that’s fine, if people don’t, that’s fine to me. All of my gun owning friends have never committed mass murder, so it doesn’t bug me
    I'm not sure that I foresee a disarming.  I think it would be phased in through registration of current weapons and restrictions on the manufacture and purchase of new weapons.

    Also restrictions on ammo.  You want to keep that gun?  Fine...the bullets are $1000 each
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
    The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,569
    edited February 2018
    riley540 said:
    Ban gun sales. Still 300 million guns already out there. Seize the weapons. Risk a war on American soil. Arm the teachers, liberals won’t have it. Take the guns, conservatives won’t have it. Spend efforts figuring out why certain people commit mass murder, and figure out how to stop these people. Reasonable but not talked about. If you think that guy wouldn’t have shot up the school if he couldn’t get an AR 15, you are in denial. I’m sorry, but banning AR15s will not stop mass murders in schools or anywhere else. We need to stop romanticizing these killers. These are human scum looking for a mark in a history book. 

    Ive states before, I do not own guns and personally do not really care for them. But I can’t see a van changing anything at all. Personally. I think it’s a good sounding solution that’s emotionally driven and not logically driven. 

    A ban actually did change things back in the 90's. More extensive bans have worked in most other civilized societies. Why would it not work here, again....especially with more expensive background checks and more security at schools?


    Question for you: Since you say if the guy couldn't get an AR 15 he would still have been able to shoot up the school...my question is how would he have been able to do the same damage if he could not get his hands on an automatic rifle?

    And if non automatic rifles would accomplish the same thing....well, why do these shootings all happen with automatic rifles then? Seems to me, and I would think the shooters as well since they're the one using them, that the automatic rifles make killing mass amounts of people way easier than non automatic rifles.

    Post edited by The Juggler on
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  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    this is for all the libertarians... swann addressed the issue of Trump and the GOP making it easier for mentally ill to buy guns.
    maddow and Mjoe have cameos

    https://youtu.be/vVws4ohBHH8

  • I'll repeat this for about the FOURTH time. There was an assault weapons ban that WORKED from 1994-2004.
    Again, referencing the 1994-2004, where were all the mass shootings before 1994?
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739


    But they're not law enforcement. They're fucking teachers. If this country, compared to the rest of the world proves anything, it's that more guns have lead to more gun violence.


    To me--its not that the teacher might become an active shooter (but you never know)....its that the likelihood of an accident with small children becomes a much greater risk. This is a dumb idea. Hire an armed security guard if you want. A kindergarten teacher teaching the alphabet with a loaded gun strapped to her person just sounds like the most asinine idea anyone has ever come up with.

    That’s be something to see. Teachers carrying a holstered gun, like it’s the Wild West.   No disrespect to any teacher, but teachers can get very stressed...there has to be a better way.
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    Maybe instead of a southern wall, and maybe northern wall...build a wall around schools...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,569
    That’s be something to see. Teachers carrying a holstered gun, like it’s the Wild West.   No disrespect to any teacher, but teachers can get very stressed...there has to be a better way.

    My wife's a teacher. The thought of her packing heat scares the bejesus out of me.
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  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,569
    Again, referencing the 1994-2004, where were all the mass shootings before 1994?

    Fella, are you just ignoring my initial response which outlined 3 or 4 mass shootings in the years leading up to 1994? Why do you think the ban was instituted in the first place?
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  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739

    My wife's a teacher. The thought of her packing heat scares the bejesus out of me.
    I don’t blame you, how does she feel about teachers possibly carrying...


    Give Peas A Chance…
  • riley540riley540 Denver Colorado Posts: 1,132

    A ban actually did change things back in the 90's. More extensive bans have worked in most other civilized societies. Why would it not work here, again....especially with more expensive background checks and more security at schools?


    Question for you: Since you say if the guy couldn't get an AR 15 he would still have been able to shoot up the school...my question is how would he have been able to do the same damage if he could not get his hands on an automatic rifle?

    And if non automatic rifles would accomplish the same thing....well, why do these shootings all happen with automatic rifles then? Seems to me, and I would think the shooters as well since they're the one using them, that the automatic rifles make killing mass amounts of people way easier than non automatic rifles.

    It was not an automatic rifle. It was semi-automatic. No different than a hand gun or a normal rifle. Fully automatic has been banned since the 80s. The only difference is the amount of bullets it holds. Two hand guns would have done the same damage. 

    Semi-auto means you pull the trigger, and one bullet comes out. 
  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,445
    edited February 2018
    my2hands said:
    And when they inevitably become the active shooter?
    More inevitably, what if they fire a gun at the bad guy to save the day and tag a 5th-grader instead? Have we idealized the notion of a "good guy with a gun" calmly pulling out his piece and taking the bad guy down?  I mean, no way he'll hit a bystander, right?  There's nothing you can trust more than good ol' regular Joes pulling out their guns at school.  

    If mandatory, teachers would have to go through rigorous training.  And some would fail.  We'd lose good teachers to not being good with and/or willing to use firearms.  No worries, though.  We would just dismiss them as wussies.

    It looks like the NRA is unbeatable and we're on the road to arming society.  Of course what will happen is 30 people will be firing guns in the mall, not know who are the "good guys" and who are the "bad guys" (though most of the people with bodily fluids running down their legs will probably be good guys).  Cops won't know who to fire at.  Good guys will be shooting everything but bad guys; hopefully not too many bystandars.  I mean, really, good guys with hero fantasies taking out bad guys in public places...what could go wrong?
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  • riley540riley540 Denver Colorado Posts: 1,132
    Also, Australia still has a lot of guns, yet no mass shootings. Also mass shooting have been on an upward trend in the US the past 20 years even though we have had fun access for over 200 years. There’s more to it than availability to weapons. Laws didn’t stop this from happening. It’s against the law to murder, and against the law to carry on school grounds. My point is, laws didn’t prevent this guy. A motivated killer will kill. 
  • 3% of the victims of Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, Texas and both Florida massacres equates to 5 people. Ask any of the victim’s family and friends if they think that your “3%” would be worth it.
     

    I’m really not sure what your point here is in context of what I said.  You come across as a sensationalist.  I don’t have any problem with it, but it makes it hard to have a grown up discussion.  Ask the other 97% of the family victims if it was worth it to them by going after assault riffles would be my response on your level.  
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,569
    edited February 2018
    riley540 said:
    It was not an automatic rifle. It was semi-automatic. No different than a hand gun or a normal rifle. Fully automatic has been banned since the 80s. The only difference is the amount of bullets it holds. Two hand guns would have done the same damage. 

    Semi-auto means you pull the trigger, and one bullet comes out. 


    Meant to say assault rifles. AR-15 was included in the 94-04 ban.


    Question for you: if two hand guns would do the same damage.....why do we never see any mass shootings with the shooter using two hand guns? Why do they always use assault rifles? My guess is it's way easier...

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  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,445
    riley540 said:
    Also, Australia still has a lot of guns, yet no mass shootings. Also mass shooting have been on an upward trend in the US the past 20 years even though we have had fun access for over 200 years. There’s more to it than availability to weapons. Laws didn’t stop this from happening. It’s against the law to murder, and against the law to carry on school grounds. My point is, laws didn’t prevent this guy. A motivated killer will kill. 
    Maybe we should study why we have so many more problems than this.  We can't spend federal money because someone was scared that it would hurt the NRA (what are they afraid of since guns don't kill people.

    Seriously, places like Australia don't have this problem.  Maybe it's not the supply of guns that causes the problem here.  But there's not much appetite to figure it out.  Because once someone asks the question, those in power jump right to serving the NRA.
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
    2013 Wrigley     2014 St. Paul     2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley     2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley     2021 Asbury Park     2022 St Louis     2023 Austin, Austin
    2024 Napa, Wrigley, Wrigley
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