Some People's Dogs

PJ_Soul · September 2015

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:
I thought you meant what do I do in regards to the victim, not the dog.
The dog would need to be muzzled from there on out.
I would suggest finding a pit bull sanctuary for it to go live at.
I know that muzzling is generally considered an acceptable way to deal with this kind of thing, but I don't agree with muzzling. Locking the dog's mouth closed so that it can't properly vocalize or even pant properly doesn't seem humane to me.
I'm not sure that isolating it from it's pack is particularly humane either. A muzzle now and then vs. never seeing your family again. Doesn't sound like an even balance to me.

Isolating it from its pack? You mean taking it from its owners? I don't think that would be cruel. It would be an adjustment, but I don't think that is unreasonable when the dog is a danger to other people. Remember, it's not a human being, and not equivalent to removing a child from its parents (not for the dog, anyway). The dogs are very happy and around other dogs at the pit bull sanctuaries.... and would actually provide it with a real pack, if that is what's concerning you.

rgambs · September 2015

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:
I thought you meant what do I do in regards to the victim, not the dog.
The dog would need to be muzzled from there on out.
I would suggest finding a pit bull sanctuary for it to go live at.
I know that muzzling is generally considered an acceptable way to deal with this kind of thing, but I don't agree with muzzling. Locking the dog's mouth closed so that it can't properly vocalize or even pant properly doesn't seem humane to me.
I'm not sure that isolating it from it's pack is particularly humane either. A muzzle now and then vs. never seeing your family again. Doesn't sound like an even balance to me.
Isolating it from its pack? You mean taking it from its owners? I don't think that would be cruel. It would be an adjustment, but I don't think that is unreasonable when the dog is a danger to other people. Remember, it's not a human being, and not equivalent to removing a child from its parents (not for the dog, anyway). The dogs are very happy and around other dogs at the pit bull sanctuaries.... and would actually provide it with a real pack, if that is what's concerning you.

Owners is a human concept, to a dog it is a pack.
Have you ever had a dog that was a close companion? It is not equivalent to taking a child from parents, but it is adjacent. Sure, they can be happy, just like kids removed can be, but they also will always miss their family.
Dangers can be controlled, even mitigated without splitting up a family.
If it is an attack more severe than a bite of a stranger, those more drastic solutions need to be taken.

PJ_Soul · September 2015

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:
I thought you meant what do I do in regards to the victim, not the dog.
The dog would need to be muzzled from there on out.
I would suggest finding a pit bull sanctuary for it to go live at.
I know that muzzling is generally considered an acceptable way to deal with this kind of thing, but I don't agree with muzzling. Locking the dog's mouth closed so that it can't properly vocalize or even pant properly doesn't seem humane to me.
I'm not sure that isolating it from it's pack is particularly humane either. A muzzle now and then vs. never seeing your family again. Doesn't sound like an even balance to me.
Isolating it from its pack? You mean taking it from its owners? I don't think that would be cruel. It would be an adjustment, but I don't think that is unreasonable when the dog is a danger to other people. Remember, it's not a human being, and not equivalent to removing a child from its parents (not for the dog, anyway). The dogs are very happy and around other dogs at the pit bull sanctuaries.... and would actually provide it with a real pack, if that is what's concerning you.
Owners is a human concept, to a dog it is a pack.
Have you ever had a dog that was a close companion? It is not equivalent to taking a child from parents, but it is adjacent. Sure, they can be happy, just like kids removed can be, but they also will always miss their family.
Dangers can be controlled, even mitigated without splitting up a family.
If it is an attack more severe than a bite of a stranger, those more drastic solutions need to be taken.

That's fine (and not necessarily true. I know there are loads of theories about animals and the nature of their relationships with people, and as far as I know, none of those theories can be proven - they're really just opinions. Until animals can actually tell us what's going on there, I'm not really going to believe much of anything either way). But yes, I fully acknowledge and appreciate the bond between human and dog. But we're talking about the safety of people, which trumps what you're talking about (and I still do not consider it even adjacent to removing a child from parents, sorry. I LOVE dogs, but I just don't do that human child/dog comparison thing). And yes, I do think a sanctuary would be better than muzzling even though removing a dog from its owner is hard. We're talking about pit bulls who have attacked people here. Perspective.

callen · September 2015

Just talked to my mom who left her dog for two weeks. Got back and the dog screamed for twenty minutes in delight. Think that's talking.

PJ_Soul · September 2015

callen said:
Just talked to my mom who left her dog for two weeks. Got back and the dog screamed for twenty minutes in delight. Think that's talking.

It's dog-talking.
Of course dogs love their masters, I'm not saying they don't. But I'm not buying any theory about whether or not dogs consider their master their "pack". We don't know that. All we know is that perhaps some of their behaviour is similar to certain pack behaviour (of course, that doesn't take into consideration all the pack behaviour that isn't reflected) ... which really means nothing besides knowing that a dog acts a certain way.
Yeah, last time I went out of town for 5 days, my cat was basically despondent while I was gone, and when I came home she was so happy she couldn't stop drooling. These huge puddles of drool everywhere, all over me.... it was adorable. But that doesn't tell me that my cat thinks I'm a cat (another actual theory that I don't accept without any evidence, and can easily come up with at least as much "evidence" to the contrary).
In any case, again, when you're talking about a pit bull that has attacked a person, it's really irrelevant. We put violent people in prison right? So I think it's more than appropriate to put a violent dog in a lovely sanctuary with other dogs, where it's handled with love.... away from other people it could attack. Muzzles don't cut it IMO. They shouldn't be around other random people at all.

brianlux · September 2015

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:
I thought you meant what do I do in regards to the victim, not the dog.
The dog would need to be muzzled from there on out.
I would suggest finding a pit bull sanctuary for it to go live at.
I know that muzzling is generally considered an acceptable way to deal with this kind of thing, but I don't agree with muzzling. Locking the dog's mouth closed so that it can't properly vocalize or even pant properly doesn't seem humane to me.
I'm not sure that isolating it from it's pack is particularly humane either. A muzzle now and then vs. never seeing your family again. Doesn't sound like an even balance to me.
Isolating it from its pack? You mean taking it from its owners? I don't think that would be cruel. It would be an adjustment, but I don't think that is unreasonable when the dog is a danger to other people. Remember, it's not a human being, and not equivalent to removing a child from its parents (not for the dog, anyway). The dogs are very happy and around other dogs at the pit bull sanctuaries.... and would actually provide it with a real pack, if that is what's concerning you.
Owners is a human concept, to a dog it is a pack.
Have you ever had a dog that was a close companion? It is not equivalent to taking a child from parents, but it is adjacent. Sure, they can be happy, just like kids removed can be, but they also will always miss their family.
Dangers can be controlled, even mitigated without splitting up a family.
If it is an attack more severe than a bite of a stranger, those more drastic solutions need to be taken.

Gambs, I truly appreciate your love of and concern for dogs. I've had dogs at various times in my life (not now because my tyrannical cat will not allow it) and loved them all so I understand that bond. But the thing is, when it comes to dogs biting, that really is for most people a sever attack and for some it can be traumatic. I was under the impression that if a dog bites someone, that's it, their done. I was surprised to see that the laws* are actually very lenient toward the dogs. I've been bitten before by a dog and yet no dog I've ever been in pack with (owned, LOL) has ever bitten anyone, so I tend to be pretty conservative about the issue. And for the most part, the issue I have isn't with the dog, it's with irresponsible owners. And to me part of being responsible is to have a breed that is less likely to bite. Again, this fascination with "pit bulls" I think is a bad idea.

*Here are those laws:

http://dogbitelaw.com/legal-rights-of-dog-bite-victims-in-usa/what-will-happen-to-the-dog

Thirty Bills Unpaid · September 2015

Here's a couple of Cookie's brothers:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/12/us/new-york-pit-bull-attacks/

Interesting that it takes a half dozen people to pry them off the man (and a hose, chain, and various other things).

HughFreakingDillon · September 2015

I had a super happy/stupid mid sized dog (spaniel cross) growing up. pillar of the family. everyone loved him. we have pictures of him up in my parents' house. wouldn't hurt a fly. seriously. but he got into the garbage. got a pork chop bone. I approached him to get it so he wouldn't choke......he growled and tried to bite me like I was a stranger (and even my Dad, who was his best bud). it was intense. EVERY SINGLE ANIMAL is capable of turning on its owner, never mind a stranger. "vicious" breed or not. it all comes down to strength, as someone else said. now that I have kids, even if my wife was not allergic, I wouldn't get a dog ever.

I love dogs, don't get me wrong, but ownership-wise, I like cats. they do their own thing. they are independent. they are smart. you can leave them for a week and they can take care of themselves. they say "fuck you, I do what I want" and don't take commands and walk away showing you their asshole. I like that attitude.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · September 2015

HughFreakingDillon said:
I had a super happy/stupid mid sized dog (spaniel cross) growing up. pillar of the family. everyone loved him. we have pictures of him up in my parents' house. wouldn't hurt a fly. seriously. but he got into the garbage. got a pork chop bone. I approached him to get it so he wouldn't choke......he growled and tried to bite me like I was a stranger (and even my Dad, who was his best bud). it was intense. EVERY SINGLE ANIMAL is capable of turning on its owner, never mind a stranger. "vicious" breed or not. it all comes down to strength, as someone else said. now that I have kids, even if my wife was not allergic, I wouldn't get a dog ever.

I love dogs, don't get me wrong, but ownership-wise, I like cats. they do their own thing. they are independent. they are smart. you can leave them for a week and they can take care of themselves. they say "fuck you, I do what I want" and don't take commands and walk away showing you their asshole. I like that attitude.

You make a great point that nullifies the 'all breeds bite' rationalization of pitbulls and the like. Strength.

Who cares if a Yorky gets aggressive and tries to chew your leg?

* My kids needed a pet. We went the cat route for many reasons- our busy lifestyles number one. It was a great choice. I love that cat. Even when she wakes me up at 5am by standing on my head and wanting attention (and food).

PJfanwillneverleave1 · September 2015

HughFreakingDillon said:
, but ownership-wise, I like cats. they do their own thing. they are independent. they are smart. you can leave them for a week and they can take care of themselves. they say "fuck you, I do what I want" and don't take commands and walk away showing you their asshole. I like that attitude.

Made me think of a quote from one of the authors I read.

callen · September 2015

Why I like dogs. They worship me. HA.

HughFreakingDillon · September 2015

my dog was my favourite thing in the world when he was alive. more so than any of my cats. but as an adult, with kids, I can see why people stay away from them.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · February 2016

A woman in our area attacked and killed by a dog.

We'll freaking shoot bears that come out of the forest at night to sneak a few apples off fruit trees, but we'll allow big, mean, aggressive dogs to any fool who wants one.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/coroner+investigating+after+kamloops+woman+fatally+mauled/11689827/story.html

Thirty Bills Unpaid · February 2016

A related link in the story I posted (in the same province and same month):

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/richmond+attack+leaves+young+woman+critical+condition/11624557/story.html

I guess a Rottweiler/Husky cross (owned by the boyfriend of one of the two) decided to suddenly attack the 3 year old son of one of the sisters.

The incident has again raised much debate online about owning certain breeds of potentially aggressive dogs, but Gomez says her friends want people to understand that Yogi was a beloved family member, and they are very upset about possibly losing the dog.

Gomez said Yogi was adopted at seven weeks and he’s now three years old. She said the family has never had a problem with the dog being aggressive, describing the animal as “a real sweetie pie.”

Poor poor dog.

Oh yeah... poor 3 year old, two sisters (one in critical condition), and bystander mauled while trying to intervene too.

PJ_Soul · February 2016

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
A woman in our area attacked and killed by a dog.

We'll freaking shoot bears that come out of the forest at night to sneak a few apples off fruit trees, but we'll allow big, mean, aggressive dogs to any fool who wants one.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/coroner+investigating+after+kamloops+woman+fatally+mauled/11689827/story.html

That is horrible.
The matter becomes more complicated when it's on a reserve. law enforcement isn't welcome on most reserves when it comes to telling people what they can and can't do, and I'm sure that includes how people are taking care of their dogs.

brianlux · February 2016

Sometimes people have big aggressive dogs because they truly need protection but too often people have big aggressive dogs because they think it's cool. The former more often are better at training the animal than the later and neglecting proper training too easily can lead to injury or even death. Too many irresponsible pet owner.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · December 2017

Two pitbulls maul and kill their owner when she takes them out for a walk.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/22-year-old-woman-killed-by-her-2-pets-dogs-in-grisly-mauling-while-out-for-a-walk-police/ar-BBGP2S6?li=AAggNb9&ocid=edgsp

Authorities say they spent over an hour trying to catch the beasts. Why? Didn't they have guns?

At least it wasn't some neighbourhood children. I wonder if this woman has a bunch of pictures showing how cute and loving the dogs were? I wonder if she spent any time or energy telling people 'not to worry because her dogs wouldn't hurt a fly'?

Bentleyspop · December 2017

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Two pitbulls maul and kill their owner when she takes them out for a walk.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/22-year-old-woman-killed-by-her-2-pets-dogs-in-grisly-mauling-while-out-for-a-walk-police/ar-BBGP2S6?li=AAggNb9&ocid=edgsp

Authorities say they spent over an hour trying to catch the beasts. Why? Didn't they have guns?

At least it wasn't some neighbourhood children. I wonder if this woman has a bunch of pictures showing how cute and loving the dogs were? I wonder if she spent any time or energy telling people 'not to worry because her dogs wouldn't hurt a fly'?

One 9f the things I read from one of the local news sourced was that the dogs were raised for fighting!
SHOCKIN!!

brianlux · December 2017

Many people, my wife included, defend American Staffordshire Terrier (aka "pitbulls") as be such sweet and lovable dogs and it's true, they can be, but when I see one being walked by someone I think to myself, "Sweet dog or deadly beast?" How can you know? You can't. Sorry to say, AST fans, but the reality is that some very irresponsible people have made this breed a high-risk, uncertain potential danger. Besides, there are so many other good choices. Why put others ill at ease? I say, no more Staffordshire Terriers!

rgambs · December 2017

Bentleyspop said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Two pitbulls maul and kill their owner when she takes them out for a walk.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/22-year-old-woman-killed-by-her-2-pets-dogs-in-grisly-mauling-while-out-for-a-walk-police/ar-BBGP2S6?li=AAggNb9&ocid=edgsp

Authorities say they spent over an hour trying to catch the beasts. Why? Didn't they have guns?

At least it wasn't some neighbourhood children. I wonder if this woman has a bunch of pictures showing how cute and loving the dogs were? I wonder if she spent any time or energy telling people 'not to worry because her dogs wouldn't hurt a fly'?

One 9f the things I read from one of the local news sourced was that the dogs were raised for fighting!
SHOCKIN!!

Bred for fighting, not raised for fighting.

Some People's Dogs

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