Trump dismantling our National Monuments

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  • PP193448
    PP193448 Here Posts: 4,282
    It’s not about nature... it’s all about money.  Money is evil, Trump is the devil.
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  • Bentleyspop
    Bentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, Colorado Posts: 11,641
    PP193448 said:
    It’s not about nature... it’s all about money.  Money is evil, Trump is the devil.
    When you support Herr dRumpf you support evil
    When you support evil you are evil
  • OnWis97
    OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,696
    So he has a stronger affinity for Confederate monuments than US monuments.  
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  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,781
    ^^PP, Bp, OW, all so true!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,914
    Brian, this angers me so much I don't even know what to say about it. I mean.... I know you know how I feel. This is unspeakable, really. Extremely upsetting. I'm just glad it's being challenged. Of course, I never hold too much hope for First Nations to win a fucking legal battle against the fucking US government. History hasn't been kind in that regard to say the least. :disappointed:
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,781
    PJ_Soul said:
    Brian, this angers me so much I don't even know what to say about it. I mean.... I know you know how I feel. This is unspeakable, really. Extremely upsetting. I'm just glad it's being challenged. Of course, I never hold too much hope for First Nations to win a fucking legal battle against the fucking US government. History hasn't been kind in that regard to say the least. :disappointed:
    Well said, PJ_S, I know how you feel and share those feelings.  It's beyond words.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    edited December 2017
    brianlux said:
    This thread is for concerns for our National Monuments.  I believe this issue warrants a separate thread. 

    Do you ever get so angry over an issue that you find it hard even to type?  That's how I feel as of this writing.  Trump is making strong efforts to reduce or outright eliminate some of our National Parks and Monuments. 

    First up:  Utah's Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monuments.  If you've ever visited these regions, you'll understand how egregiously fucked up Trump's efforts are to reduce these monuments and open them up to drilling and mining.  Only someone who hates nature and beauty could do such a thing.  This is outrageous.

    Read it and weep:

    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/trump-shrinks-bears-ears-grand-staircase-escalante-national-monuments/

    I spent last summer on a solo road trip in my jeep. Camped every night. Carlsbad Caverns, White Sands National Monument, Grand Canyon, Utah’s Mighty Five with others and the Grand Staircase mixed in. While many of those are national parks the idea that the Federal Government knows what’s best for these lands is absolute nonsense. Trump has it right...they should be under state and local control. The people of Utah do a damn fine job of maintaing both their state and national parks and they will do a damn fine job of managing Bears Ears and Grand Staircase. Anybody who suggets they don’t care about their environment is telling an ugly lie. There is room for industry and the environment to coexist. If you truthfully spend the time there you will recognize that.
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 43,146
    BS44325 said:
    brianlux said:
    This thread is for concerns for our National Monuments.  I believe this issue warrants a separate thread. 

    Do you ever get so angry over an issue that you find it hard even to type?  That's how I feel as of this writing.  Trump is making strong efforts to reduce or outright eliminate some of our National Parks and Monuments. 

    First up:  Utah's Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monuments.  If you've ever visited these regions, you'll understand how egregiously fucked up Trump's efforts are to reduce these monuments and open them up to drilling and mining.  Only someone who hates nature and beauty could do such a thing.  This is outrageous.

    Read it and weep:

    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/trump-shrinks-bears-ears-grand-staircase-escalante-national-monuments/

    I spent last summer on a solo road trip in my jeep. Camped every night. Carlsbad Caverns, White Sands National Monument, Grand Canyon, Utah’s Mighty Five with others and the Grand Staircase mixed in. While many of those are national parks the idea that the Federal Government knows what’s best for these lands is absolute nonsense. Trump has it right...they should be under state and local control. The people of Utah do a damn fine job of maintaing both their state and national parks and they will do a damn fine job of managing Bears Ears and Grand Staircase. Anybody who suggets they don’t care about their environment is telling an ugly lie. There is room for industry and the environment to coexist. If you truthfully spend the time there you will recognize that.
    You mean like the Keystone Pipeline? And the mine tailings waste reservoir left behind by the mining company in Colorado? Or the plethora of Superfund sites across the US that were created when "local" control of the environment was the only control? Check out the water crisis in white, middle class Michigan for what "local" control of the environment can lead to.
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  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    BS44325 said:
    brianlux said:
    This thread is for concerns for our National Monuments.  I believe this issue warrants a separate thread. 

    Do you ever get so angry over an issue that you find it hard even to type?  That's how I feel as of this writing.  Trump is making strong efforts to reduce or outright eliminate some of our National Parks and Monuments. 

    First up:  Utah's Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monuments.  If you've ever visited these regions, you'll understand how egregiously fucked up Trump's efforts are to reduce these monuments and open them up to drilling and mining.  Only someone who hates nature and beauty could do such a thing.  This is outrageous.

    Read it and weep:

    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/trump-shrinks-bears-ears-grand-staircase-escalante-national-monuments/

    I spent last summer on a solo road trip in my jeep. Camped every night. Carlsbad Caverns, White Sands National Monument, Grand Canyon, Utah’s Mighty Five with others and the Grand Staircase mixed in. While many of those are national parks the idea that the Federal Government knows what’s best for these lands is absolute nonsense. Trump has it right...they should be under state and local control. The people of Utah do a damn fine job of maintaing both their state and national parks and they will do a damn fine job of managing Bears Ears and Grand Staircase. Anybody who suggets they don’t care about their environment is telling an ugly lie. There is room for industry and the environment to coexist. If you truthfully spend the time there you will recognize that.
    You mean like the Keystone Pipeline? And the mine tailings waste reservoir left behind by the mining company in Colorado? Or the plethora of Superfund sites across the US that were created when "local" control of the environment was the only control? Check out the water crisis in white, middle class Michigan for what "local" control of the environment can lead to.
    Hmmmm...sounds like a lot of places where big EPA failed to do it’s job. You see that’s what happens when the federal government asserts more and more control...unaccountable bureaucrats removed from local problems end up compounding negligence. It is interesting though...you think Trump is idiot Hitler but you’re happy to have him run everything. Makes lots of sense.

  • CM189191
    CM189191 Posts: 6,927
    BS44325 said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    BS44325 said:
    brianlux said:
    This thread is for concerns for our National Monuments.  I believe this issue warrants a separate thread. 

    Do you ever get so angry over an issue that you find it hard even to type?  That's how I feel as of this writing.  Trump is making strong efforts to reduce or outright eliminate some of our National Parks and Monuments. 

    First up:  Utah's Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monuments.  If you've ever visited these regions, you'll understand how egregiously fucked up Trump's efforts are to reduce these monuments and open them up to drilling and mining.  Only someone who hates nature and beauty could do such a thing.  This is outrageous.

    Read it and weep:

    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/trump-shrinks-bears-ears-grand-staircase-escalante-national-monuments/

    I spent last summer on a solo road trip in my jeep. Camped every night. Carlsbad Caverns, White Sands National Monument, Grand Canyon, Utah’s Mighty Five with others and the Grand Staircase mixed in. While many of those are national parks the idea that the Federal Government knows what’s best for these lands is absolute nonsense. Trump has it right...they should be under state and local control. The people of Utah do a damn fine job of maintaing both their state and national parks and they will do a damn fine job of managing Bears Ears and Grand Staircase. Anybody who suggets they don’t care about their environment is telling an ugly lie. There is room for industry and the environment to coexist. If you truthfully spend the time there you will recognize that.
    You mean like the Keystone Pipeline? And the mine tailings waste reservoir left behind by the mining company in Colorado? Or the plethora of Superfund sites across the US that were created when "local" control of the environment was the only control? Check out the water crisis in white, middle class Michigan for what "local" control of the environment can lead to.
    Hmmmm...sounds like a lot of places where big EPA failed to do it’s job. You see that’s what happens when the federal government asserts more and more control...unaccountable bureaucrats removed from local problems end up compounding negligence. It is interesting though...you think Trump is idiot Hitler but you’re happy to have him run everything. Makes lots of sense.

    tRump is the one prodding to de-fund EPA Superfund sights. That's a dereliction of duty on all levels. 

    Unaccountable bureaucrats removed from local problems?  Wtf is Congress then?
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 43,146
    BS44325 said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    BS44325 said:
    brianlux said:
    This thread is for concerns for our National Monuments.  I believe this issue warrants a separate thread. 

    Do you ever get so angry over an issue that you find it hard even to type?  That's how I feel as of this writing.  Trump is making strong efforts to reduce or outright eliminate some of our National Parks and Monuments. 

    First up:  Utah's Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monuments.  If you've ever visited these regions, you'll understand how egregiously fucked up Trump's efforts are to reduce these monuments and open them up to drilling and mining.  Only someone who hates nature and beauty could do such a thing.  This is outrageous.

    Read it and weep:

    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/trump-shrinks-bears-ears-grand-staircase-escalante-national-monuments/

    I spent last summer on a solo road trip in my jeep. Camped every night. Carlsbad Caverns, White Sands National Monument, Grand Canyon, Utah’s Mighty Five with others and the Grand Staircase mixed in. While many of those are national parks the idea that the Federal Government knows what’s best for these lands is absolute nonsense. Trump has it right...they should be under state and local control. The people of Utah do a damn fine job of maintaing both their state and national parks and they will do a damn fine job of managing Bears Ears and Grand Staircase. Anybody who suggets they don’t care about their environment is telling an ugly lie. There is room for industry and the environment to coexist. If you truthfully spend the time there you will recognize that.
    You mean like the Keystone Pipeline? And the mine tailings waste reservoir left behind by the mining company in Colorado? Or the plethora of Superfund sites across the US that were created when "local" control of the environment was the only control? Check out the water crisis in white, middle class Michigan for what "local" control of the environment can lead to.
    Hmmmm...sounds like a lot of places where big EPA failed to do it’s job. You see that’s what happens when the federal government asserts more and more control...unaccountable bureaucrats removed from local problems end up compounding negligence. It is interesting though...you think Trump is idiot Hitler but you’re happy to have him run everything. Makes lots of sense.

    I don't trust Trump to run anything. I trusted the scientists and dedicated government employees of the EPA, BLM, USFS and the local employees of government agencies to do the right thing in the best interests of all, with some sembalence of balance. Not a federal neocon government that doesn't believe in climate change. So, the government bureaucrats caused the Keystone Pipeline leak? Or was it Canadian business bureaucrats removed from the locale that caused it?
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  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    CM189191 said:
    BS44325 said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    BS44325 said:
    brianlux said:
    This thread is for concerns for our National Monuments.  I believe this issue warrants a separate thread. 

    Do you ever get so angry over an issue that you find it hard even to type?  That's how I feel as of this writing.  Trump is making strong efforts to reduce or outright eliminate some of our National Parks and Monuments. 

    First up:  Utah's Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monuments.  If you've ever visited these regions, you'll understand how egregiously fucked up Trump's efforts are to reduce these monuments and open them up to drilling and mining.  Only someone who hates nature and beauty could do such a thing.  This is outrageous.

    Read it and weep:

    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/trump-shrinks-bears-ears-grand-staircase-escalante-national-monuments/

    I spent last summer on a solo road trip in my jeep. Camped every night. Carlsbad Caverns, White Sands National Monument, Grand Canyon, Utah’s Mighty Five with others and the Grand Staircase mixed in. While many of those are national parks the idea that the Federal Government knows what’s best for these lands is absolute nonsense. Trump has it right...they should be under state and local control. The people of Utah do a damn fine job of maintaing both their state and national parks and they will do a damn fine job of managing Bears Ears and Grand Staircase. Anybody who suggets they don’t care about their environment is telling an ugly lie. There is room for industry and the environment to coexist. If you truthfully spend the time there you will recognize that.
    You mean like the Keystone Pipeline? And the mine tailings waste reservoir left behind by the mining company in Colorado? Or the plethora of Superfund sites across the US that were created when "local" control of the environment was the only control? Check out the water crisis in white, middle class Michigan for what "local" control of the environment can lead to.
    Hmmmm...sounds like a lot of places where big EPA failed to do it’s job. You see that’s what happens when the federal government asserts more and more control...unaccountable bureaucrats removed from local problems end up compounding negligence. It is interesting though...you think Trump is idiot Hitler but you’re happy to have him run everything. Makes lots of sense.

    tRump is the one prodding to de-fund EPA Superfund sights. That's a dereliction of duty on all levels. 

    Unaccountable bureaucrats removed from local problems?  Wtf is Congress then?
    Pretty sure congress is elected locally but I don’t know...I’m just a dumb unaffected Canadian.
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    edited December 2017
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    BS44325 said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    BS44325 said:
    brianlux said:
    This thread is for concerns for our National Monuments.  I believe this issue warrants a separate thread. 

    Do you ever get so angry over an issue that you find it hard even to type?  That's how I feel as of this writing.  Trump is making strong efforts to reduce or outright eliminate some of our National Parks and Monuments. 

    First up:  Utah's Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monuments.  If you've ever visited these regions, you'll understand how egregiously fucked up Trump's efforts are to reduce these monuments and open them up to drilling and mining.  Only someone who hates nature and beauty could do such a thing.  This is outrageous.

    Read it and weep:

    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/trump-shrinks-bears-ears-grand-staircase-escalante-national-monuments/

    I spent last summer on a solo road trip in my jeep. Camped every night. Carlsbad Caverns, White Sands National Monument, Grand Canyon, Utah’s Mighty Five with others and the Grand Staircase mixed in. While many of those are national parks the idea that the Federal Government knows what’s best for these lands is absolute nonsense. Trump has it right...they should be under state and local control. The people of Utah do a damn fine job of maintaing both their state and national parks and they will do a damn fine job of managing Bears Ears and Grand Staircase. Anybody who suggets they don’t care about their environment is telling an ugly lie. There is room for industry and the environment to coexist. If you truthfully spend the time there you will recognize that.
    You mean like the Keystone Pipeline? And the mine tailings waste reservoir left behind by the mining company in Colorado? Or the plethora of Superfund sites across the US that were created when "local" control of the environment was the only control? Check out the water crisis in white, middle class Michigan for what "local" control of the environment can lead to.
    Hmmmm...sounds like a lot of places where big EPA failed to do it’s job. You see that’s what happens when the federal government asserts more and more control...unaccountable bureaucrats removed from local problems end up compounding negligence. It is interesting though...you think Trump is idiot Hitler but you’re happy to have him run everything. Makes lots of sense.

    I don't trust Trump to run anything. I trusted the scientists and dedicated government employees of the EPA, BLM, USFS and the local employees of government agencies to do the right thing in the best interests of all, with some sembalence of balance. Not a federal neocon government that doesn't believe in climate change. So, the government bureaucrats caused the Keystone Pipeline leak? Or was it Canadian business bureaucrats removed from the locale that caused it?
    The current belief is that the pipeline might have been damaged in that portion during installation and that weights used to keep the pipeline in place contributed to that damage. So to answer your question it was neither the government bureaucrat or the Canadian who is responsible for the leak. That leak withstanding the local population can rationally decide whether a very rare leak secondary to an installation defect should end any future pipeline construction. They can weigh the risks of another pipeline spill vs a train derailment and still come to the same conclusion of continuing with pipelines. You on the other hand would prefer an EPA that stops pipelines yet allows flammables hurtle through small towns that it’s bureaucrats don’t live in at high speeds.


  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 43,146
    BS44325 said:
    CM189191 said:
    BS44325 said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    BS44325 said:
    brianlux said:
    This thread is for concerns for our National Monuments.  I believe this issue warrants a separate thread. 

    Do you ever get so angry over an issue that you find it hard even to type?  That's how I feel as of this writing.  Trump is making strong efforts to reduce or outright eliminate some of our National Parks and Monuments. 

    First up:  Utah's Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monuments.  If you've ever visited these regions, you'll understand how egregiously fucked up Trump's efforts are to reduce these monuments and open them up to drilling and mining.  Only someone who hates nature and beauty could do such a thing.  This is outrageous.

    Read it and weep:

    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/trump-shrinks-bears-ears-grand-staircase-escalante-national-monuments/

    I spent last summer on a solo road trip in my jeep. Camped every night. Carlsbad Caverns, White Sands National Monument, Grand Canyon, Utah’s Mighty Five with others and the Grand Staircase mixed in. While many of those are national parks the idea that the Federal Government knows what’s best for these lands is absolute nonsense. Trump has it right...they should be under state and local control. The people of Utah do a damn fine job of maintaing both their state and national parks and they will do a damn fine job of managing Bears Ears and Grand Staircase. Anybody who suggets they don’t care about their environment is telling an ugly lie. There is room for industry and the environment to coexist. If you truthfully spend the time there you will recognize that.
    You mean like the Keystone Pipeline? And the mine tailings waste reservoir left behind by the mining company in Colorado? Or the plethora of Superfund sites across the US that were created when "local" control of the environment was the only control? Check out the water crisis in white, middle class Michigan for what "local" control of the environment can lead to.
    Hmmmm...sounds like a lot of places where big EPA failed to do it’s job. You see that’s what happens when the federal government asserts more and more control...unaccountable bureaucrats removed from local problems end up compounding negligence. It is interesting though...you think Trump is idiot Hitler but you’re happy to have him run everything. Makes lots of sense.

    tRump is the one prodding to de-fund EPA Superfund sights. That's a dereliction of duty on all levels. 

    Unaccountable bureaucrats removed from local problems?  Wtf is Congress then?
    Pretty sure congress is elected locally but I don’t know...I’m just a dumb unaffected Canadian.
    Well, you did believe those brilliant headlines would disappear shortly after the inauguration. But you self identified so I’ll give you that.
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  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,781
    edited December 2017
    BS44325 said:
    brianlux said:
    This thread is for concerns for our National Monuments.  I believe this issue warrants a separate thread. 

    Do you ever get so angry over an issue that you find it hard even to type?  That's how I feel as of this writing.  Trump is making strong efforts to reduce or outright eliminate some of our National Parks and Monuments. 

    First up:  Utah's Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monuments.  If you've ever visited these regions, you'll understand how egregiously fucked up Trump's efforts are to reduce these monuments and open them up to drilling and mining.  Only someone who hates nature and beauty could do such a thing.  This is outrageous.

    Read it and weep:

    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/trump-shrinks-bears-ears-grand-staircase-escalante-national-monuments/

    I spent last summer on a solo road trip in my jeep. Camped every night. Carlsbad Caverns, White Sands National Monument, Grand Canyon, Utah’s Mighty Five with others and the Grand Staircase mixed in. While many of those are national parks the idea that the Federal Government knows what’s best for these lands is absolute nonsense. Trump has it right...they should be under state and local control. The people of Utah do a damn fine job of maintaing both their state and national parks and they will do a damn fine job of managing Bears Ears and Grand Staircase. Anybody who suggets they don’t care about their environment is telling an ugly lie. There is room for industry and the environment to coexist. If you truthfully spend the time there you will recognize that.

    You really think that's what this is about?  And you really can't tell I'm familiar with these places?  I don't know man.  You're reaching here.  But OK, I suppose we should have an opposing view though.  Got it.
    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,781
    The Natural Resources Defense Council (a non-profit environmental advocacy group that's been given highest ratings for its three rating categories-- overall, financial practices, and accountability & transparency) has set up a fund to help with legal cost to fight Trump's attacks on environment and protection of National Monuments. 

    I know it's a busy time of year and for some, money is tight, but for those who are interested in making a donation to NRDC to help cover legal costs to fight Trump on this (and yes we did, definitely so)  perhaps consider doing so here (and yes, I'm sorry, asking for money is not my thing.  I hate doing it, but in this case, I had to do it):

    https://act.nrdc.org/donate/monuments-appeal-171201?source=WBSNMOPET&_ga=2.115985729.670531382.1512626059-1245009191.1512626059




    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

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