The Death Penalty

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

all fair points, except your first statement. it is my opinion that it is not up to humans to judge the worth of another human. or any other living being, for that matter. 

I know that's where we disagree, Hugh. I'm cool with you holding the position you do and I also understand very well why you hold it (you've laboured extensively explaining your position over the years in this thread).

I guess it's safe to say it would take something cataclysmic to have me budge from my stance. I've genuinely come to understand the other side of the equation, I just haven't gotten myself to the point where I can adopt it.

* I've thought of Callen every now and then and how much he offered to this long discussion. I guess he's gone, but he left pretty abruptly. I didn't mind him.

I don't really feel like it is true that you understand very well, since you are still talking about people feeling sorry for the criminals, and still appear to be trying to say that your idea of justice and revenge are two different things, which they aren't.

Ummmm....from what I've read, those against the death penalty believe that the criminals lives have value....right?  And that humans and the system is too flawed to judge them to die?  So if they are put to death, someone that thinks that person had value would then feel sorry for the criminal, wouldn't they?  

No.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

all fair points, except your first statement. it is my opinion that it is not up to humans to judge the worth of another human. or any other living being, for that matter. 

I know that's where we disagree, Hugh. I'm cool with you holding the position you do and I also understand very well why you hold it (you've laboured extensively explaining your position over the years in this thread).

I guess it's safe to say it would take something cataclysmic to have me budge from my stance. I've genuinely come to understand the other side of the equation, I just haven't gotten myself to the point where I can adopt it.

* I've thought of Callen every now and then and how much he offered to this long discussion. I guess he's gone, but he left pretty abruptly. I didn't mind him.

I don't really feel like it is true that you understand very well, since you are still talking about people feeling sorry for the criminals, and still appear to be trying to say that your idea of justice and revenge are two different things, which they aren't.

Ummmm....from what I've read, those against the death penalty believe that the criminals lives have value....right?  And that humans and the system is too flawed to judge them to die?  So if they are put to death, someone that thinks that person had value would then feel sorry for the criminal, wouldn't they?  

No.

Kind of.

No. I am against the death penalty because it doesn't make sense. If we're looking for justice, murder doesn't beget murder. It's the only crime where we literally seek to punish by inflicting the same act on the offender. Imagine if rapists were sentenced to eternal raping, drug dealers were forced to consume their trade forever. Sounds like Dante's Inferno come to life. Come to think of it, that may actually work...

Anyway, life in prison with no parole or chance at freedom are more punishment than any state sanctioned death will ever be, but lo and behold, our justice system is flawed and can't even get that part right.

tbergs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

all fair points, except your first statement. it is my opinion that it is not up to humans to judge the worth of another human. or any other living being, for that matter. 

I know that's where we disagree, Hugh. I'm cool with you holding the position you do and I also understand very well why you hold it (you've laboured extensively explaining your position over the years in this thread).

I guess it's safe to say it would take something cataclysmic to have me budge from my stance. I've genuinely come to understand the other side of the equation, I just haven't gotten myself to the point where I can adopt it.

* I've thought of Callen every now and then and how much he offered to this long discussion. I guess he's gone, but he left pretty abruptly. I didn't mind him.

I don't really feel like it is true that you understand very well, since you are still talking about people feeling sorry for the criminals, and still appear to be trying to say that your idea of justice and revenge are two different things, which they aren't.

Ummmm....from what I've read, those against the death penalty believe that the criminals lives have value....right?  And that humans and the system is too flawed to judge them to die?  So if they are put to death, someone that thinks that person had value would then feel sorry for the criminal, wouldn't they?  

No.

Kind of.

No. I am against the death penalty because it doesn't make sense. If we're looking for justice, murder doesn't beget murder. It's the only crime where we literally seek to punish by inflicting the same act on the offender. Imagine if rapists were sentenced to eternal raping, drug dealers were forced to consume their trade forever. Sounds like Dante's Inferno come to life. Come to think of it, that may actually work...

Anyway, life in prison with no parole or chance at freedom are more punishment than any state sanctioned death will ever be, but lo and behold, our justice system is flawed and can't even get that part right.

It makes perfect sense to some. Let the punishment equal the crime. Sentencing a child murderer to death isn't murdering them... it's punishing them- a consequence of their voluntary actions.

Imagine if we left each other alone? And were not forced to deal with the hands we are dealt?

We imprison kidnappers. Your other point is weak.

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

tbergs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

all fair points, except your first statement. it is my opinion that it is not up to humans to judge the worth of another human. or any other living being, for that matter. 

I know that's where we disagree, Hugh. I'm cool with you holding the position you do and I also understand very well why you hold it (you've laboured extensively explaining your position over the years in this thread).

I guess it's safe to say it would take something cataclysmic to have me budge from my stance. I've genuinely come to understand the other side of the equation, I just haven't gotten myself to the point where I can adopt it.

* I've thought of Callen every now and then and how much he offered to this long discussion. I guess he's gone, but he left pretty abruptly. I didn't mind him.

I don't really feel like it is true that you understand very well, since you are still talking about people feeling sorry for the criminals, and still appear to be trying to say that your idea of justice and revenge are two different things, which they aren't.

Ummmm....from what I've read, those against the death penalty believe that the criminals lives have value....right?  And that humans and the system is too flawed to judge them to die?  So if they are put to death, someone that thinks that person had value would then feel sorry for the criminal, wouldn't they?  

No.

Kind of.

No. I am against the death penalty because it doesn't make sense. If we're looking for justice, murder doesn't beget murder. It's the only crime where we literally seek to punish by inflicting the same act on the offender. Imagine if rapists were sentenced to eternal raping, drug dealers were forced to consume their trade forever. Sounds like Dante's Inferno come to life. Come to think of it, that may actually work...

Anyway, life in prison with no parole or chance at freedom are more punishment than any state sanctioned death will ever be, but lo and behold, our justice system is flawed and can't even get that part right.

It makes perfect sense to some. Let the punishment equal the crime. Sentencing a child murderer to death isn't murdering them... it's punishing them- a consequence of their voluntary actions.

Imagine if we left each other alone? And were not forced to deal with the hands we are dealt?

We imprison kidnappers. Your other point is weak.

yes, we do, but we imprison all law-breakers who are sentenced to prison. his other point is an excellent one, and one that is often dismissed by the "let the punishment fit the crime" crowd. should a child who steals from a market have their hand chopped off? cuz that punishment "fits the crime", and it would almost certainly deter a repeat offense. 

You think cutting a hand off for stealing an apple is appropriate?

I don't. An apple is replaceable and hardly life altering.

Now... raping, torturing and mutilating a child on the other hand is a completely different crime. If you think life in prison with a few comforts is suitable fair enough... but I don't.

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

all fair points, except your first statement. it is my opinion that it is not up to humans to judge the worth of another human. or any other living being, for that matter. 

I know that's where we disagree, Hugh. I'm cool with you holding the position you do and I also understand very well why you hold it (you've laboured extensively explaining your position over the years in this thread).

I guess it's safe to say it would take something cataclysmic to have me budge from my stance. I've genuinely come to understand the other side of the equation, I just haven't gotten myself to the point where I can adopt it.

* I've thought of Callen every now and then and how much he offered to this long discussion. I guess he's gone, but he left pretty abruptly. I didn't mind him.

I don't really feel like it is true that you understand very well, since you are still talking about people feeling sorry for the criminals, and still appear to be trying to say that your idea of justice and revenge are two different things, which they aren't.

Ummmm....from what I've read, those against the death penalty believe that the criminals lives have value....right?  And that humans and the system is too flawed to judge them to die?  So if they are put to death, someone that thinks that person had value would then feel sorry for the criminal, wouldn't they?  

No.

Kind of.

Not at all.

This appears to be a very effective way to communicate on a messageboard.

"No"
"Kind of"
"Not at all"
"Pretty much"

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

tbergs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

all fair points, except your first statement. it is my opinion that it is not up to humans to judge the worth of another human. or any other living being, for that matter. 

I know that's where we disagree, Hugh. I'm cool with you holding the position you do and I also understand very well why you hold it (you've laboured extensively explaining your position over the years in this thread).

I guess it's safe to say it would take something cataclysmic to have me budge from my stance. I've genuinely come to understand the other side of the equation, I just haven't gotten myself to the point where I can adopt it.

* I've thought of Callen every now and then and how much he offered to this long discussion. I guess he's gone, but he left pretty abruptly. I didn't mind him.

I don't really feel like it is true that you understand very well, since you are still talking about people feeling sorry for the criminals, and still appear to be trying to say that your idea of justice and revenge are two different things, which they aren't.

Ummmm....from what I've read, those against the death penalty believe that the criminals lives have value....right?  And that humans and the system is too flawed to judge them to die?  So if they are put to death, someone that thinks that person had value would then feel sorry for the criminal, wouldn't they?  

No.

Kind of.

No. I am against the death penalty because it doesn't make sense. If we're looking for justice, murder doesn't beget murder. It's the only crime where we literally seek to punish by inflicting the same act on the offender. Imagine if rapists were sentenced to eternal raping, drug dealers were forced to consume their trade forever. Sounds like Dante's Inferno come to life. Come to think of it, that may actually work...

Anyway, life in prison with no parole or chance at freedom are more punishment than any state sanctioned death will ever be, but lo and behold, our justice system is flawed and can't even get that part right.

It makes perfect sense to some. Let the punishment equal the crime. Sentencing a child murderer to death isn't murdering them... it's punishing them- a consequence of their voluntary actions.

Imagine if we left each other alone? And were not forced to deal with the hands we are dealt?

We imprison kidnappers. Your other point is weak.

yes, we do, but we imprison all law-breakers who are sentenced to prison. his other point is an excellent one, and one that is often dismissed by the "let the punishment fit the crime" crowd. should a child who steals from a market have their hand chopped off? cuz that punishment "fits the crime", and it would almost certainly deter a repeat offense. 

You think cutting a hand off for stealing an apple is appropriate?

I don't. An apple is replaceable and hardly life altering.

Now... raping, torturing and mutilating a child on the other hand is a completely different crime. If you think life in prison with a few comforts is suitable fair enough... but I don't.

No, I don't. But other countries who enact capital punishment do. 

so basically, here is where the "punishment fits the crime" argument falls apart and reveals itself for what it really is: vengeance. 

Speaking of punishment fitting the crime, should the juveniles who started the fire due to reckless behavior out west be lit on fire? They've caused more damage and destruction than several murders and rapists combined, not including the long term health conditions from all the smoke.

Another reason why the death penalty is a backwards justice process.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

tbergs said:

Speaking of punishment fitting the crime, should the juveniles who started the fire due to reckless behavior out west be lit on fire? They've caused more damage and destruction than several murders and rapists combined, not including the long term health conditions from all the smoke.

Another reason why the death penalty is a backwards justice process.

Juvenile argument and one I'm not going to entertain for very long.

Premeditated murder- with sadistic qualities sprinkled in- is a lot different than morons acting moronically.

Those kids need an intervention, but they are a far cry from, oh, say Steven Smith raping and murdering an infant who was put to death in Ohio.

Poor Steve, eh? The backwards justice system was so cruel to him. 

seriously, does "punishment fitting the crime" only apply to rapists and murderers? or if someone burns down someone's house, and it's ruled arson, should that person's house be burned down?

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

tbergs said:

Speaking of punishment fitting the crime, should the juveniles who started the fire due to reckless behavior out west be lit on fire? They've caused more damage and destruction than several murders and rapists combined, not including the long term health conditions from all the smoke.

Another reason why the death penalty is a backwards justice process.

Juvenile argument and one I'm not going to entertain for very long.

Premeditated murder- with sadistic qualities sprinkled in- is a lot different than morons acting moronically.

Those kids need an intervention, but they are a far cry from, oh, say Steven Smith raping and murdering an infant who was put to death in Ohio.

Poor Steve, eh? The backwards justice system was so cruel to him. 

seriously, does "punishment fitting the crime" only apply to rapists and murderers? or if someone burns down someone's house, and it's ruled arson, should that person's house be burned down?

I see no need to punish the house. Don't get silly.

I feel people who rape and murder infants, like the aforementioned Steve Smith, demand a stiffer sentence than a dope dealer or car thief. In my mind, it most accurately demonstrates the grievous nature of their offences. You obviously feel there is no need to differentiate and that jail is most suitable for both.

still won't answer a legitimate question that obviously pokes holes in your stance. ok.

LOL, well, generally people who commit a more serious offense get a more serious sentence; much longer periods of time, more restrictions with regards to visitation/amenities/freedom, not to mention the dregs of society they get to bunk and shower with. 

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

tbergs said:

Speaking of punishment fitting the crime, should the juveniles who started the fire due to reckless behavior out west be lit on fire? They've caused more damage and destruction than several murders and rapists combined, not including the long term health conditions from all the smoke.

Another reason why the death penalty is a backwards justice process.

Juvenile argument and one I'm not going to entertain for very long.

Premeditated murder- with sadistic qualities sprinkled in- is a lot different than morons acting moronically.

Those kids need an intervention, but they are a far cry from, oh, say Steven Smith raping and murdering an infant who was put to death in Ohio.

Poor Steve, eh? The backwards justice system was so cruel to him. 

seriously, does "punishment fitting the crime" only apply to rapists and murderers? or if someone burns down someone's house, and it's ruled arson, should that person's house be burned down?

I see no need to punish the house. Don't get silly.

I feel people who rape and murder infants, like the aforementioned Steve Smith, demand a stiffer sentence than a dope dealer or car thief. In my mind, it most accurately demonstrates the grievous nature of their offences. You obviously feel there is no need to differentiate and that jail is most suitable for both.

still won't answer a legitimate question that obviously pokes holes in your stance. ok.

LOL, well, generally people who commit a more serious offense get a more serious sentence; much longer periods of time, more restrictions with regards to visitation/amenities/freedom, not to mention the dregs of society they get to bunk and shower with. 

Your question was not legitimate- it was stupid. And I did answer it. Are you having troubles this morning.

To your other point though and to demonstrate how confused you are at the very moment... you said this: "generally people who commit a more serious offense get a more serious sentence."

Hmmm. Sounds like a punishment fitting the crime. Except such a punishment doesn't really fit the crime. Jail is very suitable for run of the mill criminals, but... even though you have made a point to distinguish the varying sentences depending on the severity of the offences... it's still the same.

Deal dope? Jail. Rape and murder an infant? Jail. Except not as nice a cell. Yah. I'm not there with you.

Your argument has such internal inconsistency that all you can do when people point this out is to call their points juvenile or stupid.

Either "an eye for an eye" is logical and fitting, or it isn't. Your point appears to be that "an eye for an eye" makes perfect sense for rapists and murderers, but for any other crime it's patently foolish. And therein lies the inconsistency that others are pointing out, and which makes it clear that your argument relies on emotion, not reason.