Dem Party

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

JC29856 said:

Gtilley8 said:

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

What about democrats that don't want single payer?  Am I a sellout?  

not at all. likely a sell out due to your position on political contributions, dark money, and corporations = humans. 

So, were you with Bernie, or that person popular with many PJ fans that sat at the same table as Flynn and Putin?  I can't really tell, and I'm not reading more than one page of your comments.

was never a huge Bernie fan, pegged him as a sellout long before his presidential run. speaking of litmus tests, a good litmus test for any politician is their position or better yet, changing position on Israel Palestine.
I was hard core ABC from day 1. I would have voted a dead carcass before Hillary. I supported Jill Stein up until a few weeks before the election.

Good for you for being anyone but Clinton.  Now we have Trump and a complete crony administration.  Good thinking there Mr. Liberal.  

For months I posted just how flawed your candidate was, long before most knew the name podesta, or obsessed over leaks and hacks.
Who are the next leaders in the party now? Booker, Harris, Cuomo?

No one argued that she was the best possibole candidate.  The question is who is the better choice in the general.  Not voting for Clinton is the same as voting for Trump if done by a Democrat.  Since you are in PA, you hold some level of responsibility for the chaos, drama and regressive policies in place today.  Like I posted above.. if you like single payer, well then you're further away today than you were 8 months ago.  Cut off your nose to spite your face perhaps?

I actually voted trump in a vote swap. As dumb as I am, I'm smart enough to know that money in politics will never let single payer happen. If California democrats won't allow for a public option, no way, never we will see single payer nationally.

Ok, so what I'm hearing is..........because you know we'll never get single payer, it's OK to have Trump as president (or at least vote in a way that if done nationwide will create a Trump presidency)?  I'm sorry.  I just don't get that logic.  Anyone who leans liberal or Dem in anyway, should have learned the lesson of 2000.  It's fun and cute to be idealistic when you're young and stupid and don't know any better, but we had this story play out already and it was a huge mistake.  

JC29856 said:

Gtilley8 said:

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

JC29856 said:

Gtilley8 said:

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

What about democrats that don't want single payer?  Am I a sellout?  

not at all. likely a sell out due to your position on political contributions, dark money, and corporations = humans. 

So, were you with Bernie, or that person popular with many PJ fans that sat at the same table as Flynn and Putin?  I can't really tell, and I'm not reading more than one page of your comments.

was never a huge Bernie fan, pegged him as a sellout long before his presidential run. speaking of litmus tests, a good litmus test for any politician is their position or better yet, changing position on Israel Palestine.
I was hard core ABC from day 1. I would have voted a dead carcass before Hillary. I supported Jill Stein up until a few weeks before the election.

Good for you for being anyone but Clinton.  Now we have Trump and a complete crony administration.  Good thinking there Mr. Liberal.  

For months I posted just how flawed your candidate was, long before most knew the name podesta, or obsessed over leaks and hacks.
Who are the next leaders in the party now? Booker, Harris, Cuomo?

No one argued that she was the best possibole candidate.  The question is who is the better choice in the general.  Not voting for Clinton is the same as voting for Trump if done by a Democrat.  Since you are in PA, you hold some level of responsibility for the chaos, drama and regressive policies in place today.  Like I posted above.. if you like single payer, well then you're further away today than you were 8 months ago.  Cut off your nose to spite your face perhaps?

I actually voted trump in a vote swap. As dumb as I am, I'm smart enough to know that money in politics will never let single payer happen. If California democrats won't allow for a public option, no way, never we will see single payer nationally.

Ok, so what I'm hearing is..........because you know we'll never get single payer, it's OK to have Trump as president (or at least vote in a way that if done nationwide will create a Trump presidency)?  I'm sorry.  I just don't get that logic.  Anyone who leans liberal or Dem in anyway, should have learned the lesson of 2000.  It's fun and cute to be idealistic when you're young and stupid and don't know any better, but we had this story play out already and it was a huge mistake.  

why hyperventilate? its never about a single issue, maybe a single candidate.
I'm using California as one example of phony Democrats.
What I'm hearing is democrats will continue to blame everyone except themselves for Trump for at least the next 17 years similar to how they still blame Nader for Bush 2000. correct?

Incorrect.
We blame the rubes that voted for Trump, for one moronic reason or another.

What I'm hearing from you is that you bear no responsibility for a conservative Presidency even though you voted for him in the most important swing state and campaigned tirelessly against his opponent without offering a viable option (Jill Stein, seriously?? Ben Stein had a better chance!).
I'm also hearing that you don't really care what Trump does, because you are the only true liberal and Obama used drone strikes.
Correct?

JC29856 said:

rgambs said:

JC29856 said:

Gtilley8 said:

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

JC29856 said:

Gtilley8 said:

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

What about democrats that don't want single payer?  Am I a sellout?  

not at all. likely a sell out due to your position on political contributions, dark money, and corporations = humans. 

So, were you with Bernie, or that person popular with many PJ fans that sat at the same table as Flynn and Putin?  I can't really tell, and I'm not reading more than one page of your comments.

was never a huge Bernie fan, pegged him as a sellout long before his presidential run. speaking of litmus tests, a good litmus test for any politician is their position or better yet, changing position on Israel Palestine.
I was hard core ABC from day 1. I would have voted a dead carcass before Hillary. I supported Jill Stein up until a few weeks before the election.

Good for you for being anyone but Clinton.  Now we have Trump and a complete crony administration.  Good thinking there Mr. Liberal.  

For months I posted just how flawed your candidate was, long before most knew the name podesta, or obsessed over leaks and hacks.
Who are the next leaders in the party now? Booker, Harris, Cuomo?

No one argued that she was the best possibole candidate.  The question is who is the better choice in the general.  Not voting for Clinton is the same as voting for Trump if done by a Democrat.  Since you are in PA, you hold some level of responsibility for the chaos, drama and regressive policies in place today.  Like I posted above.. if you like single payer, well then you're further away today than you were 8 months ago.  Cut off your nose to spite your face perhaps?

I actually voted trump in a vote swap. As dumb as I am, I'm smart enough to know that money in politics will never let single payer happen. If California democrats won't allow for a public option, no way, never we will see single payer nationally.

Ok, so what I'm hearing is..........because you know we'll never get single payer, it's OK to have Trump as president (or at least vote in a way that if done nationwide will create a Trump presidency)?  I'm sorry.  I just don't get that logic.  Anyone who leans liberal or Dem in anyway, should have learned the lesson of 2000.  It's fun and cute to be idealistic when you're young and stupid and don't know any better, but we had this story play out already and it was a huge mistake.  

why hyperventilate? its never about a single issue, maybe a single candidate.
I'm using California as one example of phony Democrats.
What I'm hearing is democrats will continue to blame everyone except themselves for Trump for at least the next 17 years similar to how they still blame Nader for Bush 2000. correct?

Incorrect.
We blame the rubes that voted for Trump, for one moronic reason or another.

What I'm hearing from you is that you bear no responsibility for a conservative Presidency even though you voted for him in the most important swing state and campaigned tirelessly against his opponent without offering a viable option (Jill Stein, seriously?? Ben Stein had a better chance!).
I'm also hearing that you don't really care what Trump does, because you are the only true liberal and Obama used drone strikes.
Correct?

What I'm hearing is that you will blindly vote Democrat no matter what they do, or don't do, good bad or otherwise, make zero demands of them, allow them to cheat you and expect things to get better for you and your fellow Democrats?

Elections are choices.  This was the choice we had.  Great became the enemy of good and now we have Trump. These are real consequences...22MM people losing medicare, the EPA a shell of itself, State completely skeleton staffed while the world drifts without leadership...

JC29856 said:

Gtilley8 said:

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

JC29856 said:

Gtilley8 said:

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

What about democrats that don't want single payer?  Am I a sellout?  

not at all. likely a sell out due to your position on political contributions, dark money, and corporations = humans. 

So, were you with Bernie, or that person popular with many PJ fans that sat at the same table as Flynn and Putin?  I can't really tell, and I'm not reading more than one page of your comments.

was never a huge Bernie fan, pegged him as a sellout long before his presidential run. speaking of litmus tests, a good litmus test for any politician is their position or better yet, changing position on Israel Palestine.
I was hard core ABC from day 1. I would have voted a dead carcass before Hillary. I supported Jill Stein up until a few weeks before the election.

Good for you for being anyone but Clinton.  Now we have Trump and a complete crony administration.  Good thinking there Mr. Liberal.  

For months I posted just how flawed your candidate was, long before most knew the name podesta, or obsessed over leaks and hacks.
Who are the next leaders in the party now? Booker, Harris, Cuomo?

No one argued that she was the best possibole candidate.  The question is who is the better choice in the general.  Not voting for Clinton is the same as voting for Trump if done by a Democrat.  Since you are in PA, you hold some level of responsibility for the chaos, drama and regressive policies in place today.  Like I posted above.. if you like single payer, well then you're further away today than you were 8 months ago.  Cut off your nose to spite your face perhaps?

I actually voted trump in a vote swap. As dumb as I am, I'm smart enough to know that money in politics will never let single payer happen. If California democrats won't allow for a public option, no way, never we will see single payer nationally.

Ok, so what I'm hearing is..........because you know we'll never get single payer, it's OK to have Trump as president (or at least vote in a way that if done nationwide will create a Trump presidency)?  I'm sorry.  I just don't get that logic.  Anyone who leans liberal or Dem in anyway, should have learned the lesson of 2000.  It's fun and cute to be idealistic when you're young and stupid and don't know any better, but we had this story play out already and it was a huge mistake.  

why hyperventilate? its never about a single issue, maybe a single candidate.
I'm using California as one example of phony Democrats.
What I'm hearing is democrats will continue to blame everyone except themselves for Trump for at least the next 17 years similar to how they still blame Nader for Bush 2000. correct?

Who's hyperventilating?  Where did I blame Nader?  I voted Nader in 2000, and although I know my vote didn't win or lose the election, I had to learn from that mistake.  If you didn't learn from that, well then I guess that's your own personal issue.  A vote for Stein was a vote for Trump, which you're OK with because "money in politics will never let single payer happen."  Hmmm.  Let that marinate for a minute.

I did, without explicitly asking, as for some sort of logic behind your view - which I don't understand.  Apparently you didn't use logic, or your reasoning is so poor that you won't explain it.  That's fine.  I suppose at some point you'll respond with a meme and drop a total truth bomb on us, right?

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

JC29856 said:

I assuming you're classifying the devil you don't know as republicans? that's just it, we know what republicans are, I'm not sure I know what democrats are. what are they?
did Obama represent who democrats are (the devil I know)? how so?
did Hillary represent what democrats are? how so?
to answer your question on why democrats should run towards honesty and improvement (populism) my short answer is.... Bernie Sanders! you don't think Bernie's run is "evidence otherwise"?
did he create excitement? did he connect with the base?
how long have I heard about dire choices between "insert Republican here"? aren't you tired of the same repeated Democratic message and scare tactics? "I'm still here"

Bernies campaign and trump being elected is all the evidence I need to show just how desperate the forgotten American voter craves some semblance of "honesty" and "what about us?"

Really...you know what a Republican is?  A republican for the last 30 years has been about protectionist trade policies?  Have they been anti-immigration?  Have they been pro-Russia?  Have they been against NATO?  What about their stance on the Korean Peninsula?  It's really interesting that you know what a Republican is when the Republicans have been turned on their head by the tide of nationalism and populism.  You're quite the sage I suppose.  

hey jumpy....let him answer the question. why do you feel the need to interject yourself when the no one asks for your tired old opinion? 
ever hear the phase...know your role?
you and I been thru this back and forth for 5 months last year...I know it's difficult but please allow someone else to speak(civility, remember that word)!
if you're incessant about speaking, explain your constant anger? didn't that go out with grungy teeth circa 1994?.....benjs, the floor is yours

It's a forum, be a big boy. Who ever wants to answer, can. I hope you haven't been glued to the screen waiting; I went to a concert and didn't care to come back here and talk shop. Now heading up to beautiful north Ontario with my girlfriend. If I get a chance I'll gladly answer your questions, otherwise feel free to remind me at the end of the weekend!

Just very quickly, I actually meant the devil we don't know as the Dems, the opaque liars as opposed to the transparent ones. I don't have partisan allegiances and think they're both frauds. I'll explain my thoughts on Sanders after and we can take it from there.

JC29856 said:

I assuming you're classifying the devil you don't know as republicans? that's just it, we know what republicans are, I'm not sure I know what democrats are. what are they?
did Obama represent who democrats are (the devil I know)? how so?
did Hillary represent what democrats are? how so?
to answer your question on why democrats should run towards honesty and improvement (populism) my short answer is.... Bernie Sanders! you don't think Bernie's run is "evidence otherwise"?
did he create excitement? did he connect with the base?
how long have I heard about dire choices between "insert Republican here"? aren't you tired of the same repeated Democratic message and scare tactics? "I'm still here"

Bernies campaign and trump being elected is all the evidence I need to show just how desperate the forgotten American voter craves some semblance of "honesty" and "what about us?"

As promised.

The Devil I don't know is the Democratic Party. As far as I'm concerned, while both parties lie, only one puts an effort in to hide it anymore. 

What are the Democrats? The DNC, in my eyes, is a chimera - a Party composed of people adhering to a neoliberal agenda like Clinton did, and a small minority of people trying to usher in a new era of socially progressive populism. I can't claim to know the split between the neoliberal faction and the populist faction, but I would guess that in terms of those holding positions in the DNC, they would be predominantly neoliberals, and amongst the supporters they would be evenly split (basing this off of the election results, where Sanders and Clinton were neck-in-neck based on delegate votes, and overwhelmingly Clinton based on super delegate votes).

I feel Obama tried to appease both the neoliberal and populist factions, and did a better job on the former than the latter. I also feel that Clinton would have exclusively been able to appease the neoliberal faction. 

On Sanders - two things. First, the successes Sanders saw proved that Americans are gullible. The promises Sanders made were equally bold and unsubstantiated as Trump's; plans were never discussed, while rhetoric was shared aplenty. 

Next problem is, there are too many self-serving players within the DNC to actually permit reform. I feel that not working with superdelegates to pivot to support Sanders was a clear demonstration of the DNC's elite's unwillingness to relinquish power, in addition to an underestimation of the newly resurfaced populist movement in America. 

When Sanders was defeated by Clinton, I said then and say now that it would have been a perfect opportunity to go Independent. I was listening to Democracy Now on Friday, and there was a Croatian philosopher talking about G20, and how people like Merkel are being put on this pedestal as a sort of anti-Trump. His statement was dead-on: these are all people on two sides of the same coin. I feel that the DNC at this point has deep roots in the neoliberal movement, and trying to reform them won't happen, but given a third option, for the first time in modern American history, I feel there would be an opportunity for a true, honest, populist, socially progressive Party.