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Where in the hell does he go from here?BS44325 said:
I don't see how Ryan survives as speaker.Cliffy6745 said:
Like, I have recently been thinking, maybe I am wrong, maybe they aren't completely dysfunctional and perhaps they know what they are doing (outside of the WH, obviously), but no, nope, they are a bunch of imbecilesmfc2006 said:
it boggles the mindCliffy6745 said:I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.
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If I were a Republican troubleshooting the party right now, the biggest impediment to getting the agenda passed is the Freedom Caucus. Those guys want a perfect bill every time, and they'll never get to yes. That old saying, "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good" -- that's the FC.
Ironically, it appears to be that inclination that will torpedo this awful health care bill and keeps Obamacare on the books, which is kind of funny.everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do0 -
Like which specific area of Hell?Cliffy6745 said:
Where in the hell does he go from here?BS44325 said:
I don't see how Ryan survives as speaker.Cliffy6745 said:
Like, I have recently been thinking, maybe I am wrong, maybe they aren't completely dysfunctional and perhaps they know what they are doing (outside of the WH, obviously), but no, nope, they are a bunch of imbecilesmfc2006 said:
it boggles the mindCliffy6745 said:I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.
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I'm sorry, but I have trouble feeling pity for this idiot. The stupidity of Trump voters is indeed stunning.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4346066/Trump-voter-s-husband-faces-deportation-Mexico.html
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata0 -
Or that the republicans actually care about providing the average person who doesn't have health insurance, with health insurance.dignin said:
What boggles the mind for me is the people that believed Trump was a magic deal maker...and that the Republican party was some kind of unified force. The tea party nuts have been holding this party hostage for years. Chickens coming home to roost.mfc2006 said:
it boggles the mindCliffy6745 said:I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.
09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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Well, yes, with comments like this...Go Beavers said:
Like which specific area of Hell?Cliffy6745 said:
Where in the hell does he go from here?BS44325 said:
I don't see how Ryan survives as speaker.Cliffy6745 said:
Like, I have recently been thinking, maybe I am wrong, maybe they aren't completely dysfunctional and perhaps they know what they are doing (outside of the WH, obviously), but no, nope, they are a bunch of imbecilesmfc2006 said:
it boggles the mindCliffy6745 said:I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.
Ryan: So, the health care entitlements are the big, big, big drivers of our debt. There are three. Obamacare, Medicaid, and Medicare. Two out of three are going through Congress right now. So, Medicaid—sending it back to the states, capping its growth rate. We’ve been dreaming of this since you and I were drinking out of a keg.
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Nobody on the conservative side thought the Republican party was a unified force. If you know anything about the fate of Eric Cantor, John Beohner and the election of Trump you would know that statement is based on zero substance. It is the fact that opposition to the GOP establishment has only grown through the years is what in the end will kill this bill. Paul Ryan went for a safe plan with the backing of Trump and the republican base did not bite. They did not bite because the bill is not conservative enough. The only question remaining is whether the ascendent freedom caucus and the Paul/Cruz/Lee wing in the senate will get another kick at the can. I'm not sure how they do it.dignin said:
What boggles the mind for me is the people that believed Trump was a magic deal maker...and that the Republican party was some kind of unified force. The tea party nuts have been holding this party hostage for years. Chickens coming home to roost.mfc2006 said:
it boggles the mindCliffy6745 said:I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.
Post edited by BS44325 on0 -
I'm saying that in the end, for-profit businesses are going to make business decisions based on their bottom line. If the minimum wage is too high, they will lay people off or look into automated systems or start hiring higher skilled workers that are "worth the investment". If the wages were raised too much or too fast, that person that was working full time and collecting health insurance might also be replaced by part time workers or have their hours cut to compensate...how does that help their poverty situation? It could actually hurt the demographics that are already experiencing poverty.PJ_Soul said:
So you don't believe in making wages keep up with inflation? You're saying that unless workers got more education, you'd keep minimum wage the same forever? Wages have to increase to keep up with the cost of living. That some don't seem to think that's necessary is why so many people in first world countries are living in poverty even though they work full time. That is wrong.PJPOWER said:
My thought would be that if I was required to pay someone more, I would expect a higher education level and screen my employees a little more strictly...and who ends up being left behind there? I would also consider what technology could do to help the bottom line and whether it would be cheaper to buy a $15000 burger flipping machine than pay a burger flipper $20000/year. I also do not like jobs being sent overseas, but capitalism also encourages innovation and technological progress through competition. I would suggest incentives to keep jobs here/penalties for sending them overseas...maybe to the extent that it would not be profitable to do so.PJ_Soul said:
Well, think about the shocking technological progress that has happened since the 80s. Now consider the unemployment rate during that time. It doesn't seem to me that technology is actually reducing the number of jobs available. As far as I've noticed, the only kinds of jobs that have been lost en masse over that time are all the blue collar manufacturing-related jobs and agricultural jobs. And how many of those lost jobs were because of advancing technology? Weren't most of them lost because companies sent manufacturing overseas or because farming became corporate rather than because they lost their job to a mechanical arm or something? What are the real stats I wonder? Those "left behind" more seem to be so because of the cost of living vs wages rather than technology. Jobs that used to allow less educated workers to support themselves no longer pay enough for them to do so because of the ever-expanding gap between wages and cost of living. Basically, the culprit is capitalism, not technology. Thoughts?PJPOWER said:
That's a fair comparison. As far as people being "left behind", though, does that equate to social progress? What could be done to reduce these people being left behind when a new technology takes over an industry? There is already an issue with unemployment, so what is the leveling factor between technological innovation and social progress? We talk about it being unfair that lower education individuals (such as many in the fast food industry) are being paid poorly, but does that not specifically fit into the definition of being "left behind"? I guess they should all just suck it up and find a new skill that pays better before they become irrelevant, right? Or should society bend to assist/enable those being "left behind" in industries becoming more and more automated?mrussel1 said:
Depends on how you define it I suppose. It is certainly efficiency and increased productivity. But these same arguments were made when the cotton gin was created, the assembly line, cranes invented, etc. Nothing we see is unique. Every time there is a dramatic change in technology, people are left behind. And there's always a demagogue that says he is going to stop it....and doesn't.PJPOWER said:
Similar to the burger flipping/kiosk machines being incorporated into fast food chains due the rising costs of hiring more workers? Progress?CM189191 said:
Great. Another step backwards.PJfanwillneverleave1 said:No one talks about that today President Trump was meeting with Truckers and hearing their voice, why not?
Listen to the audio from the latest tweet. Nothing wrong with this in fact it is very Presidential.
Truckers are shitting themselves right now. The technology is dogfart away from replacing an entire industry there. No doubt they'll get all sorts of job protections out of this meeting.
...the free market, small government party at work...
And what about cost of living? Should the minimum wage in a town where the average cost of living is 70% be the same as a the suburb where the cost of living is 70% higher? It is an argument with a lot of factors and not as simple as just "give people more money" and make things rainbows and butterflies.Post edited by PJPOWER on0 -
7 Years of bitching and crying, framing the ACA as the worst thing to ever happen to freedom and our country... Egg-headed followers and Obama-haters alike sopping up every piece of empty rhetoric.
7 Years, with full control of the government and they cannot come up with an alternative.
Lol. It would be funny if it werent sad that we are now being governed by these con-artists0 -
0
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but death panels0
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Nunes runs to the White House without briefing his colleagues on the intelligence committee first and now all the sudden Paul Manafort is willing to testify? Voluntarily? And the public hearing with the former intelligence chiefs gets cancelled? The fix ix in folks. Time for an independent counsel to be appointed. Testimony before Congress is under oath. Manafort better be really careful with what he says. How many 5ths might he take?
Follow the money, from Russia with love, all the way to impeachment.
Rep. Adam Schiff, a Democrat, told reporters that the committee's chairman, Rep. Devin Nunes, a Republican, had canceled an open intelligence committee hearing. The hearing, with former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, former CIA Director John Brennan and former acting Attorney General Sally Yates, was set to take place next week.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/all-of-us-are-essentially-in-the-dark-adam-schiff-slams-house-intel-chair-for-canceling-public-russia-hearings/ar-BByHxVh?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp
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Trump voters believed he was the guy to kick some ass, bring the party together and get things done. The party of doers. So yeah, conservatives fell for that load of BS. Proving yet again that they were conned. Sold a bill of goods.BS44325 said:
Nobody on the conservative side thought the Republican party was a unified force. If you know anything about the fate of Eric Cantor, John Beohner and the election of Trump you would know that statement is based on zero substance. It is the fact that opposition to the GOP establishment has only grown through the years is what in the end will kill this bill. Paul Ryan went for a safe plan with the backing of Trump and the republican base did not bite. They did not bite because the bill is not conservative enough. The only question remaining is whether the ascendent freedom caucus and the Paul/Cruz/Lee wing in the senate will get another kick at the can. I'm not sure how they do it.dignin said:
What boggles the mind for me is the people that believed Trump was a magic deal maker...and that the Republican party was some kind of unified force. The tea party nuts have been holding this party hostage for years. Chickens coming home to roost.mfc2006 said:
it boggles the mindCliffy6745 said:I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.
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I think he's done. He will have to step down and a freedom caucus member will probably run to take his place. This is what many wanted all along. Some are even suggesting it was Bannon's masterplanCliffy6745 said:
Where in the hell does he go from here?BS44325 said:
I don't see how Ryan survives as speaker.Cliffy6745 said:
Like, I have recently been thinking, maybe I am wrong, maybe they aren't completely dysfunctional and perhaps they know what they are doing (outside of the WH, obviously), but no, nope, they are a bunch of imbecilesmfc2006 said:
it boggles the mindCliffy6745 said:I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/03/bannon-health-care-bill.html?mid=full-rss-di0 -
Ryan does have a little bit of leverage over Trump now. He still has the power to remove the president's lapdog, Devin Nunes, from heading the Intel Committee investigation and replace him with someone a little more interested in pursuing the truth.
I'd tread a little lightly if I were the Trump camp.everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do0 -
And there in is where the moderates turn against their president and save the republic. Trump didn't do shit to move this bill except threaten elected members of his party. They owe him no loyalty and clearly don't need him to be reelected. In fact, it probably helps them to run from this brilliant liar. Trump is a joke. everyone knows this. The only difference is that some of us knew it before he was elected. Its a blast to watch their inability to lead and take on the big challenges facing this country. It'd be funny if innocent people weren't hurt by it.slightofjeff said:Ryan does have a little bit of leverage over Trump now. He still has the power to remove the president's lapdog, Devin Nunes, from heading the Intel Committee investigation and replace him with someone a little more interested in pursuing the truth.
I'd tread a little lightly if I were the Trump camp.
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That's certainly true and on that front his image takes a hit but whether that's the end of healthcare reform we just don't know. The Freedom Caucus cannot go back to their constituents with a celebration that they defeated this bill. That will not be enough. Their constituents still want repeal so they will have to develop and bring a plan B to the table. "If" that happens...and I don't see how it can...then Trump can rebound on it. A rebound will also require movement on tax reform etc.dignin said:
Trump voters believed he was the guy to kick some ass, bring the party together and get things done. The party of doers. So yeah, conservatives fell for that load of BS. Proving yet again that they were conned. Sold a bill of goods.BS44325 said:
Nobody on the conservative side thought the Republican party was a unified force. If you know anything about the fate of Eric Cantor, John Beohner and the election of Trump you would know that statement is based on zero substance. It is the fact that opposition to the GOP establishment has only grown through the years is what in the end will kill this bill. Paul Ryan went for a safe plan with the backing of Trump and the republican base did not bite. They did not bite because the bill is not conservative enough. The only question remaining is whether the ascendent freedom caucus and the Paul/Cruz/Lee wing in the senate will get another kick at the can. I'm not sure how they do it.dignin said:
What boggles the mind for me is the people that believed Trump was a magic deal maker...and that the Republican party was some kind of unified force. The tea party nuts have been holding this party hostage for years. Chickens coming home to roost.mfc2006 said:
it boggles the mindCliffy6745 said:I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.
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But with that inflation, the profits also go up for the company, because they charge more for whatever it is they're producing in order to manage the inflation. It's not like the company's profits remain stagnant while the cost of living increases. Yeah, in an ideal world, the wages would go up gradually right along with the rest of the economy. Unfortunately, the capitalist system encourages that this doesn't happen (because the owners want to keep more and more profit), and then you end up with the situation we've got now, where lower wage earners are horribly underpaid, and therefore can't contribute to the economy themselves, which hurts the economy in general, which then forces some to try and push through significant wage increases all at once so they can catch up. Basically, they're doing it wrong.PJPOWER said:
I'm saying that in the end, for-profit businesses are going to make business decisions based on their bottom line. If the minimum wage is too high, they will lay people off or look into automated systems or start hiring higher skilled workers that are "worth the investment". If the wages were raised too much or too fast, that person that was working full time and collecting health insurance might also be replaced by part time workers...how does that help their poverty situation? It could actually hurt the demographics that are already experiencing poverty.PJ_Soul said:
So you don't believe in making wages keep up with inflation? You're saying that unless workers got more education, you'd keep minimum wage the same forever? Wages have to increase to keep up with the cost of living. That some don't seem to think that's necessary is why so many people in first world countries are living in poverty even though they work full time. That is wrong.PJPOWER said:
My thought would be that if I was required to pay someone more, I would expect a higher education level and screen my employees a little more strictly...and who ends up being left behind there? I would also consider what technology could do to help the bottom line and whether it would be cheaper to buy a $15000 burger flipping machine than pay a burger flipper $20000/year. I also do not like jobs being sent overseas, but capitalism also encourages innovation and technological progress through competition. I would suggest incentives to keep jobs here/penalties for sending them overseas...maybe to the extent that it would not be profitable to do so.PJ_Soul said:
Well, think about the shocking technological progress that has happened since the 80s. Now consider the unemployment rate during that time. It doesn't seem to me that technology is actually reducing the number of jobs available. As far as I've noticed, the only kinds of jobs that have been lost en masse over that time are all the blue collar manufacturing-related jobs and agricultural jobs. And how many of those lost jobs were because of advancing technology? Weren't most of them lost because companies sent manufacturing overseas or because farming became corporate rather than because they lost their job to a mechanical arm or something? What are the real stats I wonder? Those "left behind" more seem to be so because of the cost of living vs wages rather than technology. Jobs that used to allow less educated workers to support themselves no longer pay enough for them to do so because of the ever-expanding gap between wages and cost of living. Basically, the culprit is capitalism, not technology. Thoughts?PJPOWER said:
That's a fair comparison. As far as people being "left behind", though, does that equate to social progress? What could be done to reduce these people being left behind when a new technology takes over an industry? There is already an issue with unemployment, so what is the leveling factor between technological innovation and social progress? We talk about it being unfair that lower education individuals (such as many in the fast food industry) are being paid poorly, but does that not specifically fit into the definition of being "left behind"? I guess they should all just suck it up and find a new skill that pays better before they become irrelevant, right? Or should society bend to assist/enable those being "left behind" in industries becoming more and more automated?mrussel1 said:
Depends on how you define it I suppose. It is certainly efficiency and increased productivity. But these same arguments were made when the cotton gin was created, the assembly line, cranes invented, etc. Nothing we see is unique. Every time there is a dramatic change in technology, people are left behind. And there's always a demagogue that says he is going to stop it....and doesn't.PJPOWER said:
Similar to the burger flipping/kiosk machines being incorporated into fast food chains due the rising costs of hiring more workers? Progress?CM189191 said:
Great. Another step backwards.PJfanwillneverleave1 said:No one talks about that today President Trump was meeting with Truckers and hearing their voice, why not?
Listen to the audio from the latest tweet. Nothing wrong with this in fact it is very Presidential.
Truckers are shitting themselves right now. The technology is dogfart away from replacing an entire industry there. No doubt they'll get all sorts of job protections out of this meeting.
...the free market, small government party at work...
And what about cost of living? Should the minimum wage in a town where the average cost of living is 70% be the same as a the suburb where the cost of living is 70% higher? It is an argument with a lot of factors and not as simple as just "give people more money" and make things rainbows and butterflies.
I do agree that minimum wages should be determined on regional economics and not federal though. Someone earning $50K in Winnipeg, say, is comfortable, whereas someone who earns $50K in Vancouver is really, really struggling because the housing costs are the 3rd most expensive in the world but salaries remain stagnant (and $50K is actually still above the Vancouver's average salary, and minimum wage is still in the $10 CAD range, which seem almost criminal. They're doing it very very wrong).Post edited by PJ_Soul onWith all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata0 -
The great dealmaker still has time to pull this off. Nobody knows deals like him...he knows great deals. Deals are what he does best at.Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
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18 other republican candidates stepped aside and failed to criticize Trump during the campaign and allowed him to take the nomination without nary a fight. Nobody on the republican side called him out on his bullshit. You can't be more unified than that. And sure, that's the "only" remaining question. They should have listened to their post 2012 internal after action report. Brilliance.BS44325 said:
Nobody on the conservative side thought the Republican party was a unified force. If you know anything about the fate of Eric Cantor, John Beohner and the election of Trump you would know that statement is based on zero substance. It is the fact that opposition to the GOP establishment has only grown through the years is what in the end will kill this bill. Paul Ryan went for a safe plan with the backing of Trump and the republican base did not bite. They did not bite because the bill is not conservative enough. The only question remaining is whether the ascendent freedom caucus and the Paul/Cruz/Lee wing in the senate will get another kick at the can. I'm not sure how they do it.dignin said:
What boggles the mind for me is the people that believed Trump was a magic deal maker...and that the Republican party was some kind of unified force. The tea party nuts have been holding this party hostage for years. Chickens coming home to roost.mfc2006 said:
it boggles the mindCliffy6745 said:I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.
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