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  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478
    Looks like this bill is going to be a failure.
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879

    mrussel1 said:

    PJPOWER said:

    pjhawks said:


    PJPOWER said:

    mrussel1 said:

    PJPOWER said:

    mrussel1 said:

    PJPOWER said:

    CM189191 said:

    No one talks about that today President Trump was meeting with Truckers and hearing their voice, why not?
    Listen to the audio from the latest tweet. Nothing wrong with this in fact it is very Presidential.

    Great. Another step backwards.

    Truckers are shitting themselves right now. The technology is dogfart away from replacing an entire industry there. No doubt they'll get all sorts of job protections out of this meeting.

    ...the free market, small government party at work...
    Similar to the burger flipping/kiosk machines being incorporated into fast food chains due the rising costs of hiring more workers? Progress?
    Depends on how you define it I suppose. It is certainly efficiency and increased productivity. But these same arguments were made when the cotton gin was created, the assembly line, cranes invented, etc. Nothing we see is unique. Every time there is a dramatic change in technology, people are left behind. And there's always a demagogue that says he is going to stop it....and doesn't.
    That's a fair comparison. As far as people being "left behind", though, does that equate to social progress? What could be done to reduce these people being left behind when a new technology takes over an industry? There is already an issue with unemployment, so what is the leveling factor between technological innovation and social progress? We talk about it being unfair that lower education individuals (such as many in the fast food industry) are being paid poorly, but does that not specifically fit into the definition of being "left behind"? I guess they should all just suck it up and find a new skill that pays better before they become irrelevant, right? Or should society bend to assist/enable those being "left behind" in industries becoming more and more automated?
    I'm certainly not arguing that techno progress is social progress, by no means. But I've always felt like the miss on NAFTA, as an example, was not the actual agreement (which I generally support along with TPP (for different reasons related to China)), but that there were no plans, funds, strategy to retrain workers for the jobs of tomorrow. Free trade or technology isn't the enemy, lack of preparation is.
    I think you are correct in that more future planning needs to be done instead of passing half ass deals just to get something on a political resume. Different topic, but I know plenty of individuals that do not "plan ahead" in the way of retirement, life insurance, etc and not just those that do not have the means to do so. So many people frivolously spend every dime they earn and show no sign of financial responsibility...some even with money they don't actually have (credit cards). The government as a whole does not handle finances much better. I'm all about "living for today", but that does not = be irresponsible with tomorrow.
    A budget along these lines...


    move the f out of NYC then.
    Seriously! And is that really saying 32,000 per year towards student loan debt? Yeah, there are some bad decisions that come to play in that equation.
    And it's BS too. No one that makes 500k a year with two kids and a mortgage pays a 40% tax rate. Bull fucking shit..

    Plus all the interest on the student loan is tax deductible and I believe the child care would be as well (although I haven't paid that in over 10 years so I can't remember).
    Well once you hit a certain income deductions get phased out and you likely also get hit with the AMT.
    I was hit with AMT just this year and most years and it still doesn't get near 40%. My wife is a tax accountant. I'll ask her tonight what the highest rate she's seen this year.
  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    dignin said:

    Looks like this bill is going to be a failure.

    Sure sounds like it, judging from tone of the Spicey press briefing going on right now
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
  • Gern Blansten
    Gern Blansten Mar-A-Lago Posts: 22,144
    Yeah I think it's done....even some yes votes will turn so they don't get stuck with it over their head come election time.
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  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478

    dignin said:

    Looks like this bill is going to be a failure.

    Sure sounds like it, judging from tone of the Spicey press briefing going on right now
    Sad Spicey.
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    eddiec said:



    PJPOWER said:

    PJPOWER said:


    PJPOWER said:

    mrussel1 said:

    PJPOWER said:

    mrussel1 said:

    PJPOWER said:

    CM189191 said:

    No one talks about that today President Trump was meeting with Truckers and hearing their voice, why not?
    Listen to the audio from the latest tweet. Nothing wrong with this in fact it is very Presidential.

    Great. Another step backwards.

    Truckers are shitting themselves right now. The technology is dogfart away from replacing an entire industry there. No doubt they'll get all sorts of job protections out of this meeting.

    ...the free market, small government party at work...
    Similar to the burger flipping/kiosk machines being incorporated into fast food chains due the rising costs of hiring more workers? Progress?
    Depends on how you define it I suppose. It is certainly efficiency and increased productivity. But these same arguments were made when the cotton gin was created, the assembly line, cranes invented, etc. Nothing we see is unique. Every time there is a dramatic change in technology, people are left behind. And there's always a demagogue that says he is going to stop it....and doesn't.
    That's a fair comparison. As far as people being "left behind", though, does that equate to social progress? What could be done to reduce these people being left behind when a new technology takes over an industry? There is already an issue with unemployment, so what is the leveling factor between technological innovation and social progress? We talk about it being unfair that lower education individuals (such as many in the fast food industry) are being paid poorly, but does that not specifically fit into the definition of being "left behind"? I guess they should all just suck it up and find a new skill that pays better before they become irrelevant, right? Or should society bend to assist/enable those being "left behind" in industries becoming more and more automated?
    I'm certainly not arguing that techno progress is social progress, by no means. But I've always felt like the miss on NAFTA, as an example, was not the actual agreement (which I generally support along with TPP (for different reasons related to China)), but that there were no plans, funds, strategy to retrain workers for the jobs of tomorrow. Free trade or technology isn't the enemy, lack of preparation is.
    I think you are correct in that more future planning needs to be done instead of passing half ass deals just to get something on a political resume. Different topic, but I know plenty of individuals that do not "plan ahead" in the way of retirement, life insurance, etc and not just those that do not have the means to do so. So many people frivolously spend every dime they earn and show no sign of financial responsibility...some even with money they don't actually have (credit cards). The government as a whole does not handle finances much better. I'm all about "living for today", but that does not = be irresponsible with tomorrow.
    A budget along these lines
    And that is why I would never live in New York City, lol. 42000 childcare, damn??? I guess the definition of "average" is different for different people. If you need a 1,500,000 home to feel average...then you have an ego problem, not a financial problem.
    The google says the highest average childcare for an infant in the whole state is $12,700.
    Yeah, those were all bullshit numbers.
    Some were high, some were low. My friend's kid starts kindergarten next year. 50,000 a year K-12 for most decent private schools. His daughter is two years younger. That's 100k/year soon. Not long before he moves to the burbs.

    That's insane...the price to pay if you make the lifestyle choice to enjoy the posh amenities of living in New York City I suppose...
  • mfc2006
    mfc2006 HTOWN Posts: 37,489
    dignin said:

    Looks like this bill is going to be a failure.

    yup
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  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,656
    edited March 2017
    PJPOWER said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    PJPOWER said:

    mrussel1 said:

    PJPOWER said:

    CM189191 said:

    No one talks about that today President Trump was meeting with Truckers and hearing their voice, why not?
    Listen to the audio from the latest tweet. Nothing wrong with this in fact it is very Presidential.

    Great. Another step backwards.

    Truckers are shitting themselves right now. The technology is dogfart away from replacing an entire industry there. No doubt they'll get all sorts of job protections out of this meeting.

    ...the free market, small government party at work...
    Similar to the burger flipping/kiosk machines being incorporated into fast food chains due the rising costs of hiring more workers? Progress?
    Depends on how you define it I suppose. It is certainly efficiency and increased productivity. But these same arguments were made when the cotton gin was created, the assembly line, cranes invented, etc. Nothing we see is unique. Every time there is a dramatic change in technology, people are left behind. And there's always a demagogue that says he is going to stop it....and doesn't.
    That's a fair comparison. As far as people being "left behind", though, does that equate to social progress? What could be done to reduce these people being left behind when a new technology takes over an industry? There is already an issue with unemployment, so what is the leveling factor between technological innovation and social progress? We talk about it being unfair that lower education individuals (such as many in the fast food industry) are being paid poorly, but does that not specifically fit into the definition of being "left behind"? I guess they should all just suck it up and find a new skill that pays better before they become irrelevant, right? Or should society bend to assist/enable those being "left behind" in industries becoming more and more automated?
    Well, think about the shocking technological progress that has happened since the 80s. Now consider the unemployment rate during that time. It doesn't seem to me that technology is actually reducing the number of jobs available. As far as I've noticed, the only kinds of jobs that have been lost en masse over that time are all the blue collar manufacturing-related jobs and agricultural jobs. And how many of those lost jobs were because of advancing technology? Weren't most of them lost because companies sent manufacturing overseas or because farming became corporate rather than because they lost their job to a mechanical arm or something? What are the real stats I wonder? Those "left behind" more seem to be so because of the cost of living vs wages rather than technology. Jobs that used to allow less educated workers to support themselves no longer pay enough for them to do so because of the ever-expanding gap between wages and cost of living. Basically, the culprit is capitalism, not technology. Thoughts?
    My thought would be that if I was required to pay someone more, I would expect a higher education level and screen my employees a little more strictly...and who ends up being left behind there? I would also consider what technology could do to help the bottom line and whether it would be cheaper to buy a $15000 burger flipping machine than pay a burger flipper $20000/year. I also do not like jobs being sent overseas, but capitalism also encourages innovation and technological progress through competition. I would suggest incentives to keep jobs here/penalties for sending them overseas...maybe to the extent that it would not be profitable to do so.
    So you don't believe in making wages keep up with inflation? You're saying that unless workers got more education, you'd keep minimum wage the same forever? Wages have to increase to keep up with the cost of living. That some don't seem to think that's necessary is why so many people in first world countries are living in poverty even though they work full time. That is wrong.
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  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,023
    I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.
  • mfc2006
    mfc2006 HTOWN Posts: 37,489

    I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.

    it boggles the mind
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  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,023
    mfc2006 said:

    I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.

    it boggles the mind
    Like, I have recently been thinking, maybe I am wrong, maybe they aren't completely dysfunctional and perhaps they know what they are doing (outside of the WH, obviously), but no, nope, they are a bunch of imbeciles
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124

    mfc2006 said:

    I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.

    it boggles the mind
    Like, I have recently been thinking, maybe I am wrong, maybe they aren't completely dysfunctional and perhaps they know what they are doing (outside of the WH, obviously), but no, nope, they are a bunch of imbeciles
    I don't see how Ryan survives as speaker.
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    PJ_Soul said:

    PJPOWER said:

    mrussel1 said:

    PJPOWER said:

    CM189191 said:

    No one talks about that today President Trump was meeting with Truckers and hearing their voice, why not?
    Listen to the audio from the latest tweet. Nothing wrong with this in fact it is very Presidential.

    Great. Another step backwards.

    Truckers are shitting themselves right now. The technology is dogfart away from replacing an entire industry there. No doubt they'll get all sorts of job protections out of this meeting.

    ...the free market, small government party at work...
    Similar to the burger flipping/kiosk machines being incorporated into fast food chains due the rising costs of hiring more workers? Progress?
    Depends on how you define it I suppose. It is certainly efficiency and increased productivity. But these same arguments were made when the cotton gin was created, the assembly line, cranes invented, etc. Nothing we see is unique. Every time there is a dramatic change in technology, people are left behind. And there's always a demagogue that says he is going to stop it....and doesn't.
    That's a fair comparison. As far as people being "left behind", though, does that equate to social progress? What could be done to reduce these people being left behind when a new technology takes over an industry? There is already an issue with unemployment, so what is the leveling factor between technological innovation and social progress? We talk about it being unfair that lower education individuals (such as many in the fast food industry) are being paid poorly, but does that not specifically fit into the definition of being "left behind"? I guess they should all just suck it up and find a new skill that pays better before they become irrelevant, right? Or should society bend to assist/enable those being "left behind" in industries becoming more and more automated?
    Well, think about the shocking technological progress that has happened since the 80s. Now consider the unemployment rate during that time. It doesn't seem to me that technology is actually reducing the number of jobs available. As far as I've noticed, the only kinds of jobs that have been lost en masse over that time are all the blue collar manufacturing-related jobs and agricultural jobs. And how many of those lost jobs were because of advancing technology? Weren't most of them lost because companies sent manufacturing overseas or because farming became corporate rather than because they lost their job to a mechanical arm or something? What are the real stats I wonder? Those "left behind" more seem to be so because of the cost of living vs wages rather than technology. Jobs that used to allow less educated workers to support themselves no longer pay enough for them to do so because of the ever-expanding gap between wages and cost of living. Basically, the culprit is capitalism, not technology. Thoughts?
    Yes you are right about some manufacturing, etc., but worker productivity, in white and blue collar jobs has soared as well. Think about how many things in your world that took 3 people in the past but now take 1? I work for a mid sized financial firm. When I joined 9 years ago, many of the processes were done manually. My first objective was to automate the system processes and replace the 3 non-exempt workers with a single process manager. The process manager monitors the systems and works exceptions, not every item. The result was a more precise product, far more efficient and speedy and far more scalable. We went from a company full of non-exempt HS grads to only being college grads. Maybe that's a bad thing socially, but not economically.

    And yes you are right that the culprit is capitalism, but I'm not sure I would use the word culprit. If there were a better economic system that worked, then I would support that. The fact is that capitalism, while imperfect, is the most egalitarian economic system the world has seen, that actually works. I say "actually works" because while communism may look sexy on paper, it hasn't worked in any state thus far.

    One more thing, I have shared a graph like this before. In fact, I show it to anyone I can that is in HS to emphasize the point about how important secondary education is. Check out the difference in job loss at recession followed by the recovery, split between college grads and non-grads. It's the only evidence one needs about the criticality of going to college. Red is "no college", blue is "Bachelor or higher"



  • mfc2006
    mfc2006 HTOWN Posts: 37,489

    mfc2006 said:

    I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.

    it boggles the mind
    Like, I have recently been thinking, maybe I am wrong, maybe they aren't completely dysfunctional and perhaps they know what they are doing (outside of the WH, obviously), but no, nope, they are a bunch of imbeciles
    I completely agree. They couldn't collectively screw in a lightbulb.
    I LOVE MUSIC.
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  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478
    mfc2006 said:

    I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.

    it boggles the mind
    What boggles the mind for me is the people that believed Trump was a magic deal maker...and that the Republican party was some kind of unified force. The tea party nuts have been holding this party hostage for years. Chickens coming home to roost.
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    dignin said:

    mfc2006 said:

    I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.

    it boggles the mind
    What boggles the mind for me is the people that believed Trump was a magic deal maker...and that the Republican party was some kind of unified force. The tea party nuts have been holding this party hostage for years. Chickens coming home to roost.
    Newsflash... being the opposition is easy. Governing is hard.
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,023
    mfc2006 said:

    mfc2006 said:

    I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.

    it boggles the mind
    Like, I have recently been thinking, maybe I am wrong, maybe they aren't completely dysfunctional and perhaps they know what they are doing (outside of the WH, obviously), but no, nope, they are a bunch of imbeciles
    I completely agree. They couldn't collectively screw in a lightbulb.
    Truly amazing.
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  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,538
    mrussel1 said:

    dignin said:

    mfc2006 said:

    I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.

    it boggles the mind
    What boggles the mind for me is the people that believed Trump was a magic deal maker...and that the Republican party was some kind of unified force. The tea party nuts have been holding this party hostage for years. Chickens coming home to roost.
    Newsflash... being the opposition is easy. Governing is hard.
    Exactly. And the notion that the government can't do anything right and should run like the private sector has contributed to this. The skill set that a reality tv show star and real estate mogul has doesn't apply to government. Imagine that.

    The Republican platform of opposition only, and yes to nothing is now on display. No one corralled the kids on the playground for 8 years, so the bully rose to the top to run the show.
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,004

    I really cannot believe this is going to fail. 7 years, complete power, the best deal maker ever and they can't get it done.

    They had no intention of getting it done. Pure brilliance.
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