Vladimir Putin

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  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,918
    BS44325 said:

    JC29856 said:

    BS44325 said:

    mrussel1 said:

    JC29856 said:

    mrussel1 said:

    JC29856 said:

    mrussel1 said:

    I watched it. What's your point, or what's the context of your butt-hurt statement?

    It seems that some don't take too kindly of truth, especially when it's not in plain English.
    Huh? Are you speaking in PJFan language?
    Is PJfan a person or an adjective? I'm kinda one track minded.
    PJFanwillneverleave I'm sure you've read plenty of his posts. He writes in an unusual way that makes me say "wait...what?". So the point is that I don't understand your statement.

    What I took out of this video is nothing new. It shows me that Putin is who I think he is. Savvy, smart, manipulative and exceedingly rational. He is playing Trump with his compliments. I mean, good for him, that's what a KGB colonel is goino. But I don't think we are on our way to military conflict by any stretch of the imagination. We are setting lines of demarcation for a new Cold War or proxy war.
    I hope you're right but I am not so certain about this. Russia along with China are ramping up their military posture right now. They are also clearly testing/using their cyber warfare capabilities at the same time. They are positioning themselves for conflict and whether they have intentions for conflict or not we just don't know. Both of those countries have strategic interests and territories that they want to put under their control. If I were them and I had the intention to make a move then I would make it at some point between now and the turnover to the next administration whoever that might be. The US and the west as a whole are divided on so many issues and a strategic strike by Russia/China in the next couple of months would be very hard to defend especially under the leadership of an exiting President who hasn't demonstrated the willingness to enforce redlines and who appears non-commital on treaty obligations. This isn't on Obama alone either...the leader of the GOP at the moment also appears non-commital on treaty obligations. I am not saying a strike by Russia/China will happen and people can accuse me of being a "blowhard" but there is a window of opportunity emerging for both of those countries that west should be prepared to deal with.

    Edit - adding a link with respect to cyberattacks and how it could affect election day

    http://electionlawblog.org/?p=87926
    Since Putin is trying to elect Trump and an escalation with Russia would only help Hilliary, I doubt anything will happen between now and Nov 8.
    Putin is only trying to create chaos and doubt in the system. He is succeeding in that regard.
    This is true. He is attempting to undermine democracy. He gets to say to his people... "Democracy is corrupt. It's evil. We have the superior way".
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,759
    my2hands said:

    Both sides have to keep the boogeyman alive...

    Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head with that statement.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    mrussel1 said:

    ^^ Let me ask a few clarifying questions. What is the target that you think China and or Russia would strike militarily? I assume you are talking about some US territory or some territory that the US is specifically obligated to protect (Poland, Hungary, etc.). And which treaty has Obama not shown a willingness to defend, or publicly questioned the usefulness of said treaty? That seems to be a trait of Trump, not Clinton or Obama.

    Not US territory but possibly territory that it has previously committed to defend. These include the baltic states on Russia's end and
    various island's in the south china sea up to and including Taiwan on China's end. Also the phrase I used for Obama was "appears to be non-committal on treaty obligations". Now that does not mean he has "publicly questioned usefulness" but that through his failure to enforce red-lines, or to do anything about broken ceasefires, or to respond to cyber warfare, or respond to missiles fired at naval vessels, or to check American adversaries territiorial aggression etc. that he is giving off the appearance that he will not respond with appropriate force should it be necessary. This could dangerously lead Russia, China, Iran and/or North Korea to make a strategic play for something. Trump's posture isn't helping and the fact that Clinton is so compromised doesn't help either but I believe the two of them are for the most part irrelevant in this equation other then the fact that they have the country so greatly divided. This isn't boogeyman stuff here. These countries have objectives and are probing for western weakness.
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    How quickly things change!

    https://youtu.be/bowhUWl6rxQ
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Man was I just being a paranoid warmonger...

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN12P31W?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,759
    BS44325 said:

    Man was I just being a paranoid warmonger...

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN12P31W?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social

    It's posturing. I do feel like a new cold war is beginning though. WWIII with Russia as the main axis power though? No, I don't think so.... And I hope I'm right, lol.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    Man was I just being a paranoid warmonger...

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN12P31W?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social

    It's posturing. I do feel like a new cold war is beginning though. WWIII with Russia as the main axis power though? No, I don't think so.... And I hope I'm right, lol.
    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    Man was I just being a paranoid warmonger...

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN12P31W?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social

    It's posturing. I do feel like a new cold war is beginning though. WWIII with Russia as the main axis power though? No, I don't think so.... And I hope I'm right, lol.
    I hope you're right too but I'm happy NATO is doing this. As I said I do not think it is likely but "if" Russia has intentions to seize territory during this government transition period this build up will hopefully make them think twice.
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,759
    edited October 2016
    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    Man was I just being a paranoid warmonger...

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN12P31W?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social

    It's posturing. I do feel like a new cold war is beginning though. WWIII with Russia as the main axis power though? No, I don't think so.... And I hope I'm right, lol.
    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    Man was I just being a paranoid warmonger...

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN12P31W?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social

    It's posturing. I do feel like a new cold war is beginning though. WWIII with Russia as the main axis power though? No, I don't think so.... And I hope I'm right, lol.
    I hope you're right too but I'm happy NATO is doing this. As I said I do not think it is likely but "if" Russia has intentions to seize territory during this government transition period this build up will hopefully make them think twice.
    I guess. I suppose one question has to be asked: Why exactly are people so concerned about Russia's actions? Is it in America's best interests to oppose these actions, considering the alternatives? Does the US really want to try and get Russia out of Syria?? I'm actually thinking maybe no, and that Obama has perhaps handled the Russia factor in the best way possible in recent years. Hmm. I do worry about Putin, but only because I worry about the US escalating with Russia. Anyway here is a very good article about Russia's actions and motivations since 2008 and how it's been handled so far. http://www.meforum.org/5876/why-putin-wants-syria (I know nothing about this website btw, but gather that its priority is NOT to represent Middle Eastern interests, but America's).

    I think it gives a good summary that might allow us to take pause and really consider whether or not these are actions that the US should strongly oppose if one looks beyond the singular concern of preventing conflict that affects civilians (something that is very important, but certainly not something a person can say the US intends to prevent either way. And at the same time, it has certainly be mentioned that perhaps letting Russia fight ISIS might not be the worst idea on the world, if, at least, one can detach from the idea of America trying to mold the middle east into something that feels palatable to Westerners. I personally lean strongly towards thinking that the US and allies should just get the fuck out of the middle east completely. If that means allowing Russia to assert itself in the Crimea, Ukraine, and Syria... and beyond?? I'm not sure I care outside of possible humanitarian issues, which, as I already said, could be a pretty hypocritical concern, and possibly even moot in the long run. I mean, I don't like the idea, but is it any worse than other options, especially if it means tensions expanding between the US/allies and Russia and Iran, especially when the US and Russia see "the terrorists" as a common enemy? I've said before that the one thing I agree with Trump on is that there is nothing wrong with hoping to keep relations between the US and Russia stable. The article above mentions a good point - an emboldened Russia moving into that region may result in a more peaceful situation. Or maybe not. image
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,918
    I'm not worried about Syria. He isn't invading that country not does that country's current leadership want us to stop their relationship, such as it is. My concern is the Ukraine. He had already taken sovereign territory. What's next?
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,759
    mrussel1 said:

    I'm not worried about Syria. He isn't invading that country not does that country's current leadership want us to stop their relationship, such as it is. My concern is the Ukraine. He had already taken sovereign territory. What's next?

    I don't know, but the last time the US really took a stand because they were worried about the domino effect, the Vietnam War happened.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,918
    PJ_Soul said:

    mrussel1 said:

    I'm not worried about Syria. He isn't invading that country not does that country's current leadership want us to stop their relationship, such as it is. My concern is the Ukraine. He had already taken sovereign territory. What's next?

    I don't know, but the last time the US really took a stand because they were worried about the domino effect, the Vietnam War happened.
    I don't think the Domino Theory is a fair comparison. That was to stop the spread of a specific system of government. The Ukraine is sovereign and part of NATO. We have a treaty in place to support NATO nations from the aggression of the USSR/Russian government. The Ukraine is not seeking to change their system of government and we are not seeking to stop them. We have placed sanctions on Russia due to the illegal conquest of territory that doesn't belong to Russia. The Ukraine government wants Crimea back. It's theirs.
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,759
    edited October 2016
    mrussel1 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    mrussel1 said:

    I'm not worried about Syria. He isn't invading that country not does that country's current leadership want us to stop their relationship, such as it is. My concern is the Ukraine. He had already taken sovereign territory. What's next?

    I don't know, but the last time the US really took a stand because they were worried about the domino effect, the Vietnam War happened.
    I don't think the Domino Theory is a fair comparison. That was to stop the spread of a specific system of government. The Ukraine is sovereign and part of NATO. We have a treaty in place to support NATO nations from the aggression of the USSR/Russian government. The Ukraine is not seeking to change their system of government and we are not seeking to stop them. We have placed sanctions on Russia due to the illegal conquest of territory that doesn't belong to Russia. The Ukraine government wants Crimea back. It's theirs.
    True, although your "what next?" concern does suggest that a kind of domino effect is still a consideration. Anyway .... does the US want to start a war with Russia for the sake of NATO or the Ukraine or Crimea or Syria? Do the American people? Does the world? Obviously this is probably the #1 "WW III scenario" that people have been worried about since the end of WW II. Does anyone really want to toe that line? Even if that is an exaggerated concern (which I think it is), does anyone really want another cold war? Because that is what the US is headed towards if they decide to really resist Russia's Syrian plans.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,918
    PJ_Soul said:

    mrussel1 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    mrussel1 said:

    I'm not worried about Syria. He isn't invading that country not does that country's current leadership want us to stop their relationship, such as it is. My concern is the Ukraine. He had already taken sovereign territory. What's next?

    I don't know, but the last time the US really took a stand because they were worried about the domino effect, the Vietnam War happened.
    I don't think the Domino Theory is a fair comparison. That was to stop the spread of a specific system of government. The Ukraine is sovereign and part of NATO. We have a treaty in place to support NATO nations from the aggression of the USSR/Russian government. The Ukraine is not seeking to change their system of government and we are not seeking to stop them. We have placed sanctions on Russia due to the illegal conquest of territory that doesn't belong to Russia. The Ukraine government wants Crimea back. It's theirs.
    True, although your "what next?" concern does suggest that a kind of domino effect is still a consideration. Anyway .... does the US want to start a war with Russia for the sake of NATO or the Ukraine or Crimea or Syria? Do the American people? Does the world? Obviously this is probably the #1 "WW III scenario" that people have been worried about since the end of WW II. Does anyone really want to toe that line?
    I'm very confident we will not have a true military conflict with Russia. It will manifest itself in sanctions and cyber warfare. Perhaps there will be a proxy conflict somewhere. The MAD theory still applies (mutually assured destruction). Putin isn't crazy. He's aggressive and he wants to restore Russian equilibrium with the West. But he's not trigger happy, in my opinion.
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,759
    mrussel1 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    mrussel1 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    mrussel1 said:

    I'm not worried about Syria. He isn't invading that country not does that country's current leadership want us to stop their relationship, such as it is. My concern is the Ukraine. He had already taken sovereign territory. What's next?

    I don't know, but the last time the US really took a stand because they were worried about the domino effect, the Vietnam War happened.
    I don't think the Domino Theory is a fair comparison. That was to stop the spread of a specific system of government. The Ukraine is sovereign and part of NATO. We have a treaty in place to support NATO nations from the aggression of the USSR/Russian government. The Ukraine is not seeking to change their system of government and we are not seeking to stop them. We have placed sanctions on Russia due to the illegal conquest of territory that doesn't belong to Russia. The Ukraine government wants Crimea back. It's theirs.
    True, although your "what next?" concern does suggest that a kind of domino effect is still a consideration. Anyway .... does the US want to start a war with Russia for the sake of NATO or the Ukraine or Crimea or Syria? Do the American people? Does the world? Obviously this is probably the #1 "WW III scenario" that people have been worried about since the end of WW II. Does anyone really want to toe that line?
    I'm very confident we will not have a true military conflict with Russia. It will manifest itself in sanctions and cyber warfare. Perhaps there will be a proxy conflict somewhere. The MAD theory still applies (mutually assured destruction). Putin isn't crazy. He's aggressive and he wants to restore Russian equilibrium with the West. But he's not trigger happy, in my opinion.
    I added: Even if that is an exaggerated concern (which I think it is), does anyone really want another cold war? Because that is what the US is headed towards if they decide to really resist Russia's Syrian plans.
    I know Putin isn't crazy, but he's still pretty fucked up in Western terms. He is of the "true" old school, cold war era Russian mindset, and if he gets it in his head that he wants to flex his muscles, I don't really think he's going to let the US bully him into backing off.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    I invite you to publish the world map in your newspaper and to mark all the US military bases on it. You will see the difference.
    Putin

  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,759
    JC29856 said:

    I invite you to publish the world map in your newspaper and to mark all the US military bases on it. You will see the difference.
    Putin

    Well right. The US still seems to appoint itself world police. It's almost like the government can't help itself sometimes. I think the US has to pull back, and, as I said the other day, go back to a little of that pre-WWII attitude...... until the next Hitler comes along, that is. ;) Hey, it's a balancing act. World politics ain't easy!
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    mrussel1 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    mrussel1 said:

    I'm not worried about Syria. He isn't invading that country not does that country's current leadership want us to stop their relationship, such as it is. My concern is the Ukraine. He had already taken sovereign territory. What's next?

    I don't know, but the last time the US really took a stand because they were worried about the domino effect, the Vietnam War happened.
    I don't think the Domino Theory is a fair comparison. That was to stop the spread of a specific system of government. The Ukraine is sovereign and part of NATO. We have a treaty in place to support NATO nations from the aggression of the USSR/Russian government. The Ukraine is not seeking to change their system of government and we are not seeking to stop them. We have placed sanctions on Russia due to the illegal conquest of territory that doesn't belong to Russia. The Ukraine government wants Crimea back. It's theirs.
    Ukraine isn't in NATO.
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,759
    BS44325 said:

    mrussel1 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    mrussel1 said:

    I'm not worried about Syria. He isn't invading that country not does that country's current leadership want us to stop their relationship, such as it is. My concern is the Ukraine. He had already taken sovereign territory. What's next?

    I don't know, but the last time the US really took a stand because they were worried about the domino effect, the Vietnam War happened.
    I don't think the Domino Theory is a fair comparison. That was to stop the spread of a specific system of government. The Ukraine is sovereign and part of NATO. We have a treaty in place to support NATO nations from the aggression of the USSR/Russian government. The Ukraine is not seeking to change their system of government and we are not seeking to stop them. We have placed sanctions on Russia due to the illegal conquest of territory that doesn't belong to Russia. The Ukraine government wants Crimea back. It's theirs.
    Ukraine isn't in NATO.
    Thank you for confirming. I hadn't bothered to check (I think I felt some surprise to read that they were, because, well, it's the Ukraine, lol, but I took his word for it).
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,918
    BS44325 said:

    mrussel1 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    mrussel1 said:

    I'm not worried about Syria. He isn't invading that country not does that country's current leadership want us to stop their relationship, such as it is. My concern is the Ukraine. He had already taken sovereign territory. What's next?

    I don't know, but the last time the US really took a stand because they were worried about the domino effect, the Vietnam War happened.
    I don't think the Domino Theory is a fair comparison. That was to stop the spread of a specific system of government. The Ukraine is sovereign and part of NATO. We have a treaty in place to support NATO nations from the aggression of the USSR/Russian government. The Ukraine is not seeking to change their system of government and we are not seeking to stop them. We have placed sanctions on Russia due to the illegal conquest of territory that doesn't belong to Russia. The Ukraine government wants Crimea back. It's theirs.
    Ukraine isn't in NATO.
    Good point. But they are at a tipping point of going east or west. I want them to go west.
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,759
    edited October 2016
    mrussel1 said:

    BS44325 said:

    mrussel1 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    mrussel1 said:

    I'm not worried about Syria. He isn't invading that country not does that country's current leadership want us to stop their relationship, such as it is. My concern is the Ukraine. He had already taken sovereign territory. What's next?

    I don't know, but the last time the US really took a stand because they were worried about the domino effect, the Vietnam War happened.
    I don't think the Domino Theory is a fair comparison. That was to stop the spread of a specific system of government. The Ukraine is sovereign and part of NATO. We have a treaty in place to support NATO nations from the aggression of the USSR/Russian government. The Ukraine is not seeking to change their system of government and we are not seeking to stop them. We have placed sanctions on Russia due to the illegal conquest of territory that doesn't belong to Russia. The Ukraine government wants Crimea back. It's theirs.
    Ukraine isn't in NATO.
    Good point. But they are at a tipping point of going east or west. I want them to go west.
    But at what cost, right? That has to the question. In the long run, it might actually be better for the US and its allies for it to go east. (or not, lol)
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata

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