Something about teacher's pay...

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

pjhawks said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

pjhawks said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Free said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Free said:

I work with teachers, I know exactly what I'm talking about. And as a parent, the fingers are pointed from both directions. As long as parents won't work with teachers for the benefit of their child, and as long as teachers point fingers at parents dismissing progress on the student's behalf, the big loser here is the STUDENTS. Teacher unions protect teachers and only teachers. Bad parents have given them a horrible stereotype. Especially when education is politicized and common core ties all hands on the teacher's behalf.

Brian, the problem is how individual states, unions, the fed govt, have ALL forgotten how to really euchre a kid. Spoiled, well paid teachers give good teachers a bad rap.

Bad teachers do have a negative impact on the profession, but so do armchair critics like you.

You're a big part of the problem whether you care to admit it or not.

Tell that to Whatdreams, who has in his contract he does not have to work after 2:30 every day, parent emails not a priority and students get papers back a month later.

I did.

As much as you make it seem, What Dream's mentality is not the norm for teachers; however, your mentality is the norm for the uninformed public (you keep speaking as if you do have intimate knowledge of the job, but obviously you dont).

the original post was about teacher salaries vs. other office professionals and how teachers get 77% of the pay of other professionals. numbers have been presented (some by a teacher no less) that prove that the salaries are in line with other professionals based on number of days worked. the ones who don't understand the numbers of days worked vs.percentages of pay sure seem like the uninformed ones to me.

If you believe the day is 8-3 without any time outside of that placed on weekends or evenings... you would have a very legitimate point.

To be fair, there are some teachers that restrict their work day to that timeline, but I can tell you that is not the norm. There could be nothing worse than being unprepared for a class and having students off task and disrespectful versus engaged and appreciative.

i don't believe that their day is 8-3 but the fact is they are scheduled to work a minimum of 50 less days per year than regular professionals. that's 400 less hours per year based on an 8-hour work day. even with extra hours on lesson plans, grading, etc. they aren't making up that 400 hours. and that is based on other professionals working only 40 hours per week and i don't know a lot of professionals who only work 40 hours. Most of the ones i know are a lot closer to 50 hours per week than 40. the numbers are not out of line when factoring in pay vs. hours. it's just not. i know a lot of teachers. love some of them to death but that doesn't change the numbers. i don't think anyone here has questioned how hard teachers work (just how often) or that there job is stressful. they do and it is but again the numbers are what they are.

Exactly what professionals are you comparing them to?

other professionals with college degrees per the report in the original post

I don't work 40 hours per week. I'm only HERE 35. don't ask me how many I actually work.

My wife is a teacher and she works waaay harder than me (business job). Yes she has about 2 months off in summer but even during those 2 months she does some work. During the school yr she is putting in min of 10 hr days. I come home from the office and i can do as i please, same on weekends. For her its a few hrs grading or prep work. That's stuff she can't do during the school day since she's teaching. Same with any meetings, those can't be during the normal school day so its early morning or late night. Every weekend during the school yr she's doing hrs of work. Teaching is NOT a part time job. If you add up all the extra hrs worked during the school yr its extremely comprable to my 8-5 business job.

pjhawks said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

pjhawks said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

pjhawks said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Free said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Free said:

I work with teachers, I know exactly what I'm talking about. And as a parent, the fingers are pointed from both directions. As long as parents won't work with teachers for the benefit of their child, and as long as teachers point fingers at parents dismissing progress on the student's behalf, the big loser here is the STUDENTS. Teacher unions protect teachers and only teachers. Bad parents have given them a horrible stereotype. Especially when education is politicized and common core ties all hands on the teacher's behalf.

Brian, the problem is how individual states, unions, the fed govt, have ALL forgotten how to really euchre a kid. Spoiled, well paid teachers give good teachers a bad rap.

Bad teachers do have a negative impact on the profession, but so do armchair critics like you.

You're a big part of the problem whether you care to admit it or not.

Tell that to Whatdreams, who has in his contract he does not have to work after 2:30 every day, parent emails not a priority and students get papers back a month later.

I did.

As much as you make it seem, What Dream's mentality is not the norm for teachers; however, your mentality is the norm for the uninformed public (you keep speaking as if you do have intimate knowledge of the job, but obviously you dont).

the original post was about teacher salaries vs. other office professionals and how teachers get 77% of the pay of other professionals. numbers have been presented (some by a teacher no less) that prove that the salaries are in line with other professionals based on number of days worked. the ones who don't understand the numbers of days worked vs.percentages of pay sure seem like the uninformed ones to me.

If you believe the day is 8-3 without any time outside of that placed on weekends or evenings... you would have a very legitimate point.

To be fair, there are some teachers that restrict their work day to that timeline, but I can tell you that is not the norm. There could be nothing worse than being unprepared for a class and having students off task and disrespectful versus engaged and appreciative.

i don't believe that their day is 8-3 but the fact is they are scheduled to work a minimum of 50 less days per year than regular professionals. that's 400 less hours per year based on an 8-hour work day. even with extra hours on lesson plans, grading, etc. they aren't making up that 400 hours. and that is based on other professionals working only 40 hours per week and i don't know a lot of professionals who only work 40 hours. Most of the ones i know are a lot closer to 50 hours per week than 40. the numbers are not out of line when factoring in pay vs. hours. it's just not. i know a lot of teachers. love some of them to death but that doesn't change the numbers. i don't think anyone here has questioned how hard teachers work (just how often) or that there job is stressful. they do and it is but again the numbers are what they are.

Exactly what professionals are you comparing them to?

other professionals with college degrees per the report in the original post

Specific jobs weren't identified from what I could see. 'College graduates' is a pretty broad category and not all college graduates work a 'minimum' of 50 days a year more than teachers (as you stated).

And if we seek to compare jobs, it would be significant to compare all aspects of jobs being compared vs looking at one comparative aspect.

Bottom line: there are reasons for teacher shortages and 'general' job dissatisfaction (such as the alarming rate of 50% of teachers quitting within 5 years of starting their career).

First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

what dreams said:

First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

A+

what dreams said:

brianlux said:

what dreams said:

First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.

We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.

Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.

P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.

Death to the little red letters!

Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.

yet not once have you addressed to 50 to 70 less days a year you work than other professionals. again no one is questioning that teachers work hard or are important. the numbers don't lie. less days equals less pay and that is what the original post and study was about. 23% less pay but 50 to 70 less days per year. seems a fairly easy concept to understand to me. not sure why pointing it out is somehow at attack on teachers and their credibility but sure seems like that is what has happened.

pjhawks said:

what dreams said:

brianlux said:

what dreams said:

First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.

We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.

Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.

P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.

Death to the little red letters!

Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.

yet not once have you addressed to 50 to 70 less days a year you work than other professionals. again no one is questioning that teachers work hard or are important. the numbers don't lie. less days equals less pay and that is what the original post and study was about. 23% less pay but 50 to 70 less days per year. seems a fairly easy concept to understand to me. not sure why pointing it out is somehow at attack on teachers and their credibility but sure seems like that is what has happened.

It's true. We get paid per diem. I said that. What's there to address? If we had more days in our contract, we would get paid more. There's nothing more to say. I don't create the contract. I have no negotiating power whatsoever. I don't see what your point is. My point was that teachers should work to contract and stop providing the public with free labor. For that I received a bunch of snarky feedback about how I must not be very good at what I do. F that.

Goodbye. Not getting sucked into this.

Free said:

this? "if you think teaching is such a cakewalk, why didn't you choose it for a career?"

Does anyone choose their career by what is "easiest"? That's not following one's path. Maybe some people would, but not me. If you asked my younger sister this question, she probably would say yes. She loves her Summer's off as well as her long Christmas break and rubs it in to the rest of us often.

well if it's so easy and so high paying, I would think a lot of people would. very few people choose their job based on "their path". Actually, I think a lot of people have, and that's why they last no more than 5 years in the job. without the passion for teaching, the stress and the summers off simply aren't worth it.

the friend I referenced earlier is always stressed the hell out. sick constantly, and in the summer she is a VERY healthy person. another teacher I know, incredibly easy going guy, every year he has lost about 30-40 pounds from stress alone by the time canadian thanksgiving hits.

what dreams said:

pjhawks said:

what dreams said:

brianlux said:

what dreams said:

First of all, I am a "she." I like being a "she," so please stop referring to me as a "he." As someone has pointed out, 80% of teachers are women, so statistically, at least one of you could have figured that out. Maybe you didn't get the probability lessons in your math classes. I don't know.

Secondly, I teach in a right to work state. There are no union contracts in my state. I will check the statistics on this as well, but I'm pretty sure that in most states, there are no union contracts. I know there are none in the south, and those are the worst states of all to be a teacher -- and perhaps not coincidentally, a student. I have no "tenure." I am subject to the same evaluation process that a brand new teacher undergoes, every single year, and 60% of the score on my job evaluation is tied to student outcomes. If I fuck up, I could be put on an action plan. If I don't improve, I can be fired. Easily. I don't get a lawyer who fights my termination while I still get paid. But as I pointed out, my students perform exceedingly well, consistently. So there will never be any reason to fire me. Why fire a great teacher -- because she doesn't answer a damn e-mail?

Thirdly, the working class, immigrant parents in my diverse community like me because they know their kids will both behave and learn in my classroom. They know their child is my number one priority, so the missed e-mails are a non-issue with them. The ones I answer right away are the ones from the affluent, white, jack-ass parents because, well, I know they will be jack-asses if I don't explain right away why their little cupcake got a B+ instead of an A. The kids, speaking of grades, don't need their papers back right away, because when they are working -- and I keep them working bell to bell -- I am walking around the room, in many cases sitting side by side with them, telling them exactly what they are doing right and what they need to revise. They know what they have learned or didn't learn before the damned papers are even marked because I TALK to them. Last year we had a new principal. One day she stopped me to let me know she liked what she was seeing in my classroom. She said, "You are always with kids. I never see you when you are not surrounded by kids. Is that a deliberate choice to always be present that way?" And I'm like, "Isn't that my job?"

As I said (and someone else echoed) -- what happens at my home after hours does not affect students. It's the relationships I build with them in the classroom. It's my thorough understanding of my content which, if I do *any* homework, it's that -- continuing to learn and grow in my chosen field. It's my ability to communicate my content in a way that makes sense to them. It's the creative application of my content in activities they enjoy. It doesn't require hours and hours of labor over the kitchen table into the wee hours of the morning to make that happen. In fact, it is exactly because I do live a balanced life that I have the energy to give everything I've got while I'm in the building.

Lastly, I know I am not the norm, because I've been teaching for 23 years. Statistically, 23 years is not the norm. Our current teaching corps is very young. Young new teachers have to learn how to create this balance and command of the classroom (and thankfully for my district, like I said, I am a mentor teacher and trainer). Until they do learn this lesson, they will always be stuck in their ridiculous role of carrying home the teacher bag and wasting their time on low-yield practices, and probably miserable in their job. I know most teachers look at me like I'm crazy when I say "Don't bring work home." Many do it because they can't let go of the martyr complex that society has imposed on our profession. I'm not a martyr, but I do love my job. If I had burnt out and quit at year 5 because of all the other bullshit, I would never have had the honor of knowing so many talented and lovable kids, helping their families to send them out into the world as functional, critically thinking readers and writers.

So my final word in this entire thread (since apparently I write too much for some brains to deal with)? All the Frees of the World can kiss my ass. From what I can tell, with all their negativity about everything, they have impacted NOTHING, and never will. I can hold my life's work up to theirs and dance circles around them when it comes to making a positive impact on public education. Nothing any of them can say about my salary, my hours, my contract, or my competence will ever change that fact.

what dreams, I really SO much like a LOT of what you wrote here. I just wish to fucking hell (please don't use my language in your class, ms dreams) we could all have conversations like this over coffee, beer or whatever rolls your socks because what really matter here the most is that all of us seem to have a concern about education and if we put our heads together we might untangle one more piece of the twisted puzzle sculpture that is modern society. And all this is not just about the teachers, it's not just about the kids, it's about everything that all of us do and touch and visa versa.

We do too much jabbing at each other. Mostly we all do that. Me? I do. Guilty? Yeah.. When we do that, we're just kids again calling names and throwing chalk.

Interesting thread. I figured it would die on page one.

P.S. Here's an aside: I hate the red "Post edited by..." letters. They scream at me for having had to edit in the first place rather than give me a gold star for doing so.

Death to the little red letters!

Thank you, Brian. Like I said, I am not a martyr. Unlike Jesus, I will not turn the other cheek when someone jabs first, especially when someone attacks my integrity as a professional. Funny how you never reprimand your buddy Free when he attacks people -- always first.

yet not once have you addressed to 50 to 70 less days a year you work than other professionals. again no one is questioning that teachers work hard or are important. the numbers don't lie. less days equals less pay and that is what the original post and study was about. 23% less pay but 50 to 70 less days per year. seems a fairly easy concept to understand to me. not sure why pointing it out is somehow at attack on teachers and their credibility but sure seems like that is what has happened.

It's true. We get paid per diem. I said that. What's there to address? If we had more days in our contract, we would get paid more. There's nothing more to say. I don't create the contract. I have no negotiating power whatsoever. I don't see what your point is. My point was that teachers should work to contract and stop providing the public with free labor. For that I received a bunch of snarky feedback about how I must not be very good at what I do. F that.

Goodbye. Not getting sucked into this.

ok so we agree. you get paid less because you work less. not sure why we needed 4 pages to determine what i said on page 1 was correct.