Canadian reassurance that Bernie's no anarchist

lukin2006 said:

Universal Health Care not free, you and I know its not, there are plenty of people who believe its free. And plenty of politicians tout free this and that. Just recently here in Ontario the current liberal government is touting free post secondary education...look further into it and common sense alone tells you its far from free, still doesn't stop the politicians from claiming its free.

Who thinks it's just free? I have literally never come anyone in my whole life who doesn't know that a universal health care system is paid for with tax dollars. When someone just kind of throws out "it's free" give then some credit. You are taking them way too literally. All they mean is that we don't have to pay for anything out of pocket. That we don't have to worry about being able to afford it when we need medical care. Same with government subsidized tuition. Honestly, you must really think people are stupid.
I feel like you have been caught up in semantics, and i don't understand why. What do you think the point of going around complaining about shit not being free is doing, besides telling people you think they're idiots?

DarthMaeglin said:

PJ_Soul said:

lukin2006 said:

Universal Health Care not free, you and I know its not, there are plenty of people who believe its free. And plenty of politicians tout free this and that. Just recently here in Ontario the current liberal government is touting free post secondary education...look further into it and common sense alone tells you its far from free, still doesn't stop the politicians from claiming its free.

Who thinks it's just free? I have literally never come anyone in my whole life who doesn't know that a universal health care system is paid for with tax dollars. When someone just kind of throws out "it's free" give then some credit. You are taking them way too literally. All they mean is that we don't have to pay for anything out of pocket. That we don't have to worry about being able to afford it when we need medical care. Same with government subsidized tuition. Honestly, you must really think people are stupid.
I feel like you have been caught up in semantics, and i don't understand why. What do you think the point of going around complaining about shit not being free is doing, besides telling people you think they're idiots?

Unfortunately we have politicians (who, as you say, know better) that continue to tout the various services as "free." I'm thinking specifically of here in Ontario, where the other night I caught some of the provincial question period. When asked a question about the "free" post-secondary tuition, the premier herself numerous times referred to the program as "free tuition."
Just trying to say that the various governments have no problem misleading or misrepresenting things, which almost excuses the general public from not seeing the true picture. Sadly I've been conditioned to such cynicism over the years so that I really expect nothing from the general voters (some are informed and intelligent, but hardly the majority, and the current partisan environment on all sides doesn't help either).

Agreed...That free education is not free, not even close...I believe its capped, doesn't cover the cost of books and living expenses...and i suspect living expenses can cost as much as tuition if not more. Our premier in Ontario is touting this as free because when the next election come around there are a whole bunch of young people who will think they got free tuition or are getting free tuition...Its called indoctrination...I see her federal cousins have learned from her very well.

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

lukin2006 said:

oh well, must just be me and some others that take it to literally

I don't know how anyone would think what you are trying to say is that people are idiots.

I'm not saying anyone is an idiot, but the vast majority of the electorate don't care and are uninformed, thats the only way to explain Harper winning multiple elections and certainly the way to explain the ontario liberals 4 election wins.

DarthMaeglin said:

lukin2006 said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

lukin2006 said:

oh well, must just be me and some others that take it to literally

I don't know how anyone would think what you are trying to say is that people are idiots.

I'm not saying anyone is an idiot, but the vast majority of the electorate don't care and are uninformed, thats the only way to explain Harper winning multiple elections and certainly the way to explain the ontario liberals 4 election wins.

I might phrase it another way: while individuals aren't stupid by and large, the mob is selfish and stupid. Sad, but true (to my cynical point of view, lol).

I will definitely agree about the selfish,

(This post got away from me a bit, lol, sorry for the me length).

There are often waiting lists for such things as MRIs or particular surgeries IF it's not something that could be called urgent, but i have never heard anyone say that they simply couldn't get one at all. If that has happened it's certainly not normal.

In my experience, some do indeed get bitter if they have had what i would call bad luck. I.e., their doctors fucked up, some administrative hitch or mistake occurred, etc.
But all I can really accurately comment on are my own experiences and those of the people close to me. From that perspective, i honestly can't complain at all. In the past 5 years or so i have had an MRI, a CAT scan, and a bone scan, and i didn't wait for any of them longer than a week. I have also had a cancer scare, and i was seen by a specialist within 10 days, and while i didn't have cancer, preventative minor surgery was done literally the same day.

My sister nearly died of cancer and she was treated immediately and with great care.
My dad has had serious heart issues and has ALWAYS been treated immediately and with great care and attention. He also had cancer, and from diagnosis (which was impressive - some might have expected a doctor to miss the symptoms) to surgical treatment it was taken care of fabulously within 2 weeks. He has also had 3 knee operations, and never had to wait a crazy amount of time for scans or surgeries, though there were probably about 4 months between the scans and the surgeries in two cases, and one got bumped twice because the specialist had emergencies that took precedent, so that actually took more like 7 months.

I have broken 6 bones and have never spent longer than an hour waiting for an xray, nor longer than 2 hours in an ER. I have also been to the ER with an eye injury and they actually took me in immediately for diagnosis and treatment - they were earnestly concerned about protecting my vision. Finally, i went to the ER with strange neurological symptoms (i am fine )and they treated me with same kind of urgency i would expect when someone is dying of a heart attack or something, and handled it with extreme care, considering any and all possibilities and getting me tests and sending me to other specialists without any delay whatsoever, and they communicated effectively between hospitals to get it done.

My best friend's son was born with his guts upside down so need emergency surgery when he was born and then extended treatment in NICU, and he could not have been happier with how well his son was treated and cared for, or with how he and his wife were treated while they basically lived at the hospital.

I could go on....

My mom had one bad experience about 35 years ago where some nurse gave her the wrong meds while in the hospital.

So obviously I have been very well served by Canada's healthcare system personally. It is my opinion that there are a relatively small number of people who have had bad experiences for one reason or another, but i have never been touched by them (in most cases it appears to be a case of having bad luck with doctors and how they personally handle the patient's needs, but the problems of course are all over the map), and are very vocal about it, so the bad shit, while not the norm, becomes highlighted and catches people's attention. I hear about these nightmare scenarios, but they aren't common (I know one guy who has had a few bad experiences in the ER and now rails against the system as though they were trying to murder him and his whole family, lol, but i have noticed that actually, he and his family get very good care and he just refuses to praise it. He and his fam (3 kids) are those people who somehow ALWAYS have a medical emergency of one kind or another - perhaps they are cursed).

And yes, there are some pretty long waiting lists for certain procedures that aren't urgent, and some people get impatient with that, which is understandable. If you need, say, a hip replacement and have to wait 14 months for it while it's painful to walk, i kniw that must be very frustrating. And in some hospitals there aren't always enough beds, apparently, though i have never experienced that and don't know anyone who has (the worst i've heard about directly was someone not being able to get a private room when they wanted it). But according to the news it happens sometimes, so there is a funding or an administrative issue there I assume.

My biggest complaint is that there aren't enough GPs, and even fewer good ones. Canada has a real shortage of them, which causes walk-in clinics to be overtaxed. This appears to simply be because GPs are underpaid in Canada so everyone tries to specialize. It's definitely a problem that has to be tackled ASAP.

Btw, there are private clinics and stuff in Canada for those who would rather pay out of pocket than wait. If you have the money and want an MRI or whatever else within days instead of months, you have that option.

As for your comment about helping people who can't afford it to pay for insurance rather than having socialized healthcare ... IMO, it is the insurance company industry that is at the heart of the problems with US healthcare. As long as insurance companies have ANY input when it comes to medical treatment and ANY power to withold treatment/payment under ANY circumstances, I am 100% against that system.
Also, i think having insurance policies thatndiffer in coverage according to price is disgusting. I and most other Canadians feel that if a person - any person - needs medical care, they can simply go and get that care. No one should ever have to think about how they might finance medical care. No one should have to wrangle with insurance companies when they are sick or injured. No one should ever have to worry about shit like whether or not an illness was a "preexisting condition". That just seems fucked up to me.

catefrances said:

brianlux said:

Nevermind90 said:

brianlux said:

Nevermind90 said:

Hi, Im a nurse from Sweden. I've been campaining for Bernie for about 5 months now. Phonebanking, donating Money, spreading The message. I love to pay taxes because; our schools, healthcare, dedication, wages and so on are way a head of u. What The FUCK CNN, fox...? WHAT THE FUCK.

CNN, FOX? Those aren't news stations. They're entertainment channels that air Faux News.

Thank you for working for Bernie!!

Yepp, so why are the fuckers covering Trump & Clinton.

Sorry im so pissed of. Get out there and make the biggest turnout ever. USA had a 55% voting turnout back in 2012 and thats on the GOP & Clintons. Most Eurepeon countrys has over 75% voting turnout. Belgium 95 for exampel.

Not only is our voter turn out pathetically low, but our participation in our political system in general is very weak. Most Americans have never sat in on a state legislative meeting or county board meeting or been to city hall to voice and opinion (all great and educational experiences) let alone write a letter to or call their representative. We are a weak and passive people.

this is what happens when as a society youre content with your lot and the lies that afford it. so long as your credit card isn't denied and you can still buy all the shit you don't need and have the freedom to bitch about shit and still think its okay that the next person shot by the 2nd amendment is your 5 year old child cause god damn it its our right as americans to be armed against all enemies imaginery ......

A good summation, Cate, that all-too-often-present apathy, ennui, misdirected anger and fear that characterizes much of America.

And speaking of "all enemies imaginary"- so many of our enemies are a figment of imagination. Which takes us back the the topic here. Agree with him or not, I don't quite understand why some people react as though Bernie Sanders is their enemy or inaccurately characterize him the way some do.

PJ_Soul said:

(This post got away from me a bit, lol, sorry for the me length).

There are often waiting lists for such things as MRIs or particular surgeries IF it's not something that could be called urgent, but i have never heard anyone say that they simply couldn't get one at all. If that has happened it's certainly not normal.

In my experience, some do indeed get bitter if they have had what i would call bad luck. I.e., their doctors fucked up, some administrative hitch or mistake occurred, etc.
But all I can really accurately comment on are my own experiences and those of the people close to me. From that perspective, i honestly can't complain at all. In the past 5 years or so i have had an MRI, a CAT scan, and a bone scan, and i didn't wait for any of them longer than a week. I have also had a cancer scare, and i was seen by a specialist within 10 days, and while i didn't have cancer, preventative minor surgery was done literally the same day.

My sister nearly died of cancer and she was treated immediately and with great care.
My dad has had serious heart issues and has ALWAYS been treated immediately and with great care and attention. He also had cancer, and from diagnosis (which was impressive - some might have expected a doctor to miss the symptoms) to surgical treatment it was taken care of fabulously within 2 weeks. He has also had 3 knee operations, and never had to wait a crazy amount of time for scans or surgeries, though there were probably about 4 months between the scans and the surgeries in two cases, and one got bumped twice because the specialist had emergencies that took precedent, so that actually took more like 7 months.

I have broken 6 bones and have never spent longer than an hour waiting for an xray, nor longer than 2 hours in an ER. I have also been to the ER with an eye injury and they actually took me in immediately for diagnosis and treatment - they were earnestly concerned about protecting my vision. Finally, i went to the ER with strange neurological symptoms (i am fine )and they treated me with same kind of urgency i would expect when someone is dying of a heart attack or something, and handled it with extreme care, considering any and all possibilities and getting me tests and sending me to other specialists without any delay whatsoever, and they communicated effectively between hospitals to get it done.

My best friend's son was born with his guts upside down so need emergency surgery when he was born and then extended treatment in NICU, and he could not have been happier with how well his son was treated and cared for, or with how he and his wife were treated while they basically lived at the hospital.

I could go on....

My mom had one bad experience about 35 years ago where some nurse gave her the wrong meds while in the hospital.

So obviously I have been very well served by Canada's healthcare system personally. It is my opinion that there are a relatively small number of people who have had bad experiences for one reason or another, but i have never been touched by them (in most cases it appears to be a case of having bad luck with doctors and how they personally handle the patient's needs, but the problems of course are all over the map), and are very vocal about it, so the bad shit, while not the norm, becomes highlighted and catches people's attention. I hear about these nightmare scenarios, but they aren't common (I know one guy who has had a few bad experiences in the ER and now rails against the system as though they were trying to murder him and his whole family, lol, but i have noticed that actually, he and his family get very good care and he just refuses to praise it. He and his fam (3 kids) are those people who somehow ALWAYS have a medical emergency of one kind or another - perhaps they are cursed).

And yes, there are some pretty long waiting lists for certain procedures that aren't urgent, and some people get impatient with that, which is understandable. If you need, say, a hip replacement and have to wait 14 months for it while it's painful to walk, i kniw that must be very frustrating. And in some hospitals there aren't always enough beds, apparently, though i have never experienced that and don't know anyone who has (the worst i've heard about directly was someone not being able to get a private room when they wanted it). But according to the news it happens sometimes, so there is a funding or an administrative issue there I assume.

My biggest complaint is that there aren't enough GPs, and even fewer good ones. Canada has a real shortage of them, which causes walk-in clinics to be overtaxed. This appears to simply be because GPs are underpaid in Canada so everyone tries to specialize. It's definitely a problem that has to be tackled ASAP.

Btw, there are private clinics and stuff in Canada for those who would rather pay out of pocket than wait. If you have the money and want an MRI or whatever else within days instead of months, you have that option.

As for your comment about helping people who can't afford it to pay for insurance rather than having socialized healthcare ... IMO, it is the insurance company industry that is at the heart of the problems with US healthcare. As long as insurance companies have ANY input when it comes to medical treatment and ANY power to withold treatment/payment under ANY circumstances, I am 100% against that system.
Also, i think having insurance policies thatndiffer in coverage according to price is disgusting. I and most other Canadians feel that if a person - any person - needs medical care, they can simply go and get that care. No one should ever have to think about how they might finance medical care. No one should have to wrangle with insurance companies when they are sick or injured. No one should ever have to worry about shit like whether or not an illness was a "preexisting condition". That just seems fucked up to me.

First, I am very glad to hear your more serious problems turned out ok! Those neuro symptoms you referenced were actually something that I also faced and was one of the MRIs I had. Bizarre shit but it all turned out ok.

Beyond that, thank you for the detailed information as this definitely provides a much better insight as to the Canadian system, and I won't lie, it definitely opened my eyes a bit vs. the impressions I previously held.

One thing, the irony here in the States is that we seem to have the opposite problem. We have plenty of GPs but sometimes the specialists are hard to come by. Good ones anyway. Not really sure why that it but I suspect it stems from insurance reimbursement issues vs cost of care for the specialist, but who knows.

Anyhow, again, thanks for the insight.

ckravitz said:

Serious question about the Canadian healthcare system (bear with me, I'll get there) because I have only heard anecdotal comments about it and this thread seems to have several Canadians discussing it that are clearly familiar with it... and please don't be offended by the question I don't mean it to sound negative, I truly am curious how it really works vs. random tidbits I have read...

Also, in the interest of full disclosure so there's no accusation that I am somehow passively aggressively making some point.... I am not convinced socialized medicine is the answer. I think there is a way to help those that can't afford their own insurance (and we have an obligation to help these people), but an across the board mandate just isn't something I am ready to support. With that said....

Over the last several years multiple members of my family have needed MRIs for one reason or another. Of course when you or a family member are having health issues, you try and get as much info as possible, often turning to "Dr Google" (yes I understand this can be dangerous because you may have a pimple and suddenly be convinced it's heart disease, etc, because of what you read on the internet, nevertheless most of us do it anyway). In any event, the google results invariably lead you to message boards where folks are discussing health issues that are the same or similar to what you or a loved one are experiencing. In some cases there were folks from Canada complaining that their MRIs were declined (by who I don't know, but it sounded like someone held the purse strings and said no). Others were also complaining about how long it took to either get in to a doctor/specialist or to have tests done that were approved. From the point of view of the Canadian folks, are these comments reality or just sour grapes from folks that may have had weird circumstances?

Health care in Canada is complicated, very much depends on where you live, not all areas are equipped the same. Waiting list are real for many Canadians, not having a family doc compliments things for many.