Trump and Sanders supporters going to war with each other helps only the Republican and Democratic establishments. Bernie can't have his people getting dragged down into this muck.
You're right, it hurts Bernie. Strategic blunder by his fan base. Not that I'm drawing equivalency between the movements AT ALL, but that was what was so effective about the Civil Rights movement. It showed peace vs. violence. Democrats and left leaning people cannot respond with violence and disruption. They must stick with peaceful protests.
I disagree. And I don't think it hurts Bernie supporters in particular. The revolution has started, the people aren't going to take tromp as a leader. Silent protest only do so much, and Trump has crossed the line, with his inciting hatred and violence .
The entire left and the moderate right is NOT voting for Trump. He gets crushed in the polls by both Clinton and Sanders. We don't need to give Trump an opportunity to look presidential. The Dems have a huge natural advantage. I work with lots and lots of Republicans. They are all educated (think Rockefeller Republicans). They hate Trump. No reason to draw any moral equivalency between the two sides.
Trump and Sanders supporters going to war with each other helps only the Republican and Democratic establishments. Bernie can't have his people getting dragged down into this muck.
You're right, it hurts Bernie. Strategic blunder by his fan base. Not that I'm drawing equivalency between the movements AT ALL, but that was what was so effective about the Civil Rights movement. It showed peace vs. violence. Democrats and left leaning people cannot respond with violence and disruption. They must stick with peaceful protests.
Absolutely but the problem is that his supporters are populated by the same Social Justice Warriors that aim to shut down speech they don't agree with at college campuses across North America. These kids have grown up thinking this behaviour is ok and that they have a right to "not be offended". Nobody has ever taught them what correct political discourse is.
I'm not sure how different they are than the kids coming out of the late 60's when the issue was Vietnam.
What everyone needs to remember is what happened when the Dems put up McGovern in 72 and the GOP with Goldwater in 64. These were both hard core warriors of their respective parties. And they both got smoked in the general.
If I were going to a website that has a MAJORITY of members that were Conservatives, then started baiting threads everyday, that I knew were going to create arguments, I would hope to begin to think just maybe I needed to rethink my need for attention.
I've asked the same questions you've asked a couple of times. myyoung, and never really gotten much a fix on it. Odd as it may seem, there are some very conservative people who enjoy the music made by a band that has been outspokenly liberal in their viewpoints. I sometimes wonder if there are very liberal minded folks who still listen to Ted Nugent. Yes, very perplexing.
Is it really perplexing? With all due respect this can be seen as making inferences towards the old "you're with us or you're against us" mentality. Perhaps people find solace in Pearl Jam's art in ways that transcend political views. You can care deeply about people/things despite not seeing eye to eye on things political. There's a lot more to life than that! I know you know this so please don't read this as uppity or preachy but this line of discussion has come up before and it kind of comes across as exclusionary. Beyond the band preaching any type of hatred (which they obviously don't) I don't see why people of all backgrounds, opinions, etc., can't find something from them. I think it is pretty awesome that people enjoy the band despite having differing opinions and coming from different walks of life.
What do you think the band members would say if asked whether they think it's cool to question fandom based purely on political views? Beyond basic human rights stuff, politics are but a small picture of what someone is and I think they know this (but who knows, maybe I'm wrong).
I'm not saying that people who are highly conservative should not be Pearl Jam fans. I never said that. I just find it odd. It's not like the band's liberal/progressive attributes are like their clothes of hair cuts which have changed numerous times during their career. Those progressive elements have been an integral part of they band all along. So yeah, it is perplexing... to me at least. But do I think conservatives should not be allowed to be fans? Of course they can.
C'mon Brian...you know I'm one of these conservative fans. It is not odd at all. I always say...I like left wing music and right wing literature. I may not agree with Pearl Jam on many political issues but I absolutely love their passion. Music should be about love, introspection, idealism and expression of thought...any thought... and it only works when the artist is honest with who he or she is. Pearl Jam does this better then anyone and as a real conservative I will defend their or any progressives artist ability to speak even when it offends. Take Bushleaguer for example...it is the complete opposite from my thoughts on Bush but I actually think it is fantastic both as a "protest" song and as a straight-up art piece when the Bush mask is worn. This shouldn't be "perplexing" to you. Conservatives don't need "safe spaces" or "trigger warnings". We don't see opposing view points as "hate speech" and can actually respect those view points and even enjoy them when they are delivered intelligently. Don't be perplexed man.
100%
I'm glad you guys enjoy the music. I still think it's a bit strange that you come here to discuss politics. It's your perfect right, of course. But personally, I would not choose a band site that is so very much contrary to my beliefs on which to discuss politics. I might discuss the music or the weather or my cat or dog, but I would not have the slightest inclination to waste my time discussing politics. I don't see what you get out of it.
Just curious- besides A Moving Train, about what percentage of your time here do you guiys post on the various other forums sections- the Porch, Other Music, All Encompassing Trip, etc. Surely you must spend a majority of your posting time on PJ related forum sections since that's what it's about for you, correct?
Personally I post/comment on all the pages but I specifically post in here because it is important to enter this bubble of groupthink and show that alternative thought exists within the fanbase. For many years I ignored the AMT but eventually I got tired of every conservative being labelled as a rascist, dumb, christian, hateful, backwards biggot. If you spend a few minutes reading through these pages you will see it everywhere. This is a page that is all for tolerance except when it comes to conservative thought. What i get out of countering this argument is the hope that when some of you actually start to interact with a conservative you might actually realize that we are not the characiture you make us out too be. When you see we are good people with similar interests...music, love of this band etc maybe, just maybe some will open their minds and backoff on some of the hateful rhetoric.
Back off and tolerate what?
Mexicans are filth? Muslims are filth? People that protest need to be punched in the face? Uneducated people are awesome?
You actually expect people to 'tolerate' such values? You expect people to say, "I disagree with what you're saying about Mexican people, but I respect your opinion"? I must be missing something here.
If I were going to a website that has a MAJORITY of members that were Conservatives, then started baiting threads everyday, that I knew were going to create arguments, I would hope to begin to think just maybe I needed to rethink my need for attention.
I've asked the same questions you've asked a couple of times. myyoung, and never really gotten much a fix on it. Odd as it may seem, there are some very conservative people who enjoy the music made by a band that has been outspokenly liberal in their viewpoints. I sometimes wonder if there are very liberal minded folks who still listen to Ted Nugent. Yes, very perplexing.
Is it really perplexing? With all due respect this can be seen as making inferences towards the old "you're with us or you're against us" mentality. Perhaps people find solace in Pearl Jam's art in ways that transcend political views. You can care deeply about people/things despite not seeing eye to eye on things political. There's a lot more to life than that! I know you know this so please don't read this as uppity or preachy but this line of discussion has come up before and it kind of comes across as exclusionary. Beyond the band preaching any type of hatred (which they obviously don't) I don't see why people of all backgrounds, opinions, etc., can't find something from them. I think it is pretty awesome that people enjoy the band despite having differing opinions and coming from different walks of life.
What do you think the band members would say if asked whether they think it's cool to question fandom based purely on political views? Beyond basic human rights stuff, politics are but a small picture of what someone is and I think they know this (but who knows, maybe I'm wrong).
I'm not saying that people who are highly conservative should not be Pearl Jam fans. I never said that. I just find it odd. It's not like the band's liberal/progressive attributes are like their clothes of hair cuts which have changed numerous times during their career. Those progressive elements have been an integral part of they band all along. So yeah, it is perplexing... to me at least. But do I think conservatives should not be allowed to be fans? Of course they can.
C'mon Brian...you know I'm one of these conservative fans. It is not odd at all. I always say...I like left wing music and right wing literature. I may not agree with Pearl Jam on many political issues but I absolutely love their passion. Music should be about love, introspection, idealism and expression of thought...any thought... and it only works when the artist is honest with who he or she is. Pearl Jam does this better then anyone and as a real conservative I will defend their or any progressives artist ability to speak even when it offends. Take Bushleaguer for example...it is the complete opposite from my thoughts on Bush but I actually think it is fantastic both as a "protest" song and as a straight-up art piece when the Bush mask is worn. This shouldn't be "perplexing" to you. Conservatives don't need "safe spaces" or "trigger warnings". We don't see opposing view points as "hate speech" and can actually respect those view points and even enjoy them when they are delivered intelligently. Don't be perplexed man.
100%
I'm glad you guys enjoy the music. I still think it's a bit strange that you come here to discuss politics. It's your perfect right, of course. But personally, I would not choose a band site that is so very much contrary to my beliefs on which to discuss politics. I might discuss the music or the weather or my cat or dog, but I would not have the slightest inclination to waste my time discussing politics. I don't see what you get out of it.
Just curious- besides A Moving Train, about what percentage of your time here do you guiys post on the various other forums sections- the Porch, Other Music, All Encompassing Trip, etc. Surely you must spend a majority of your posting time on PJ related forum sections since that's what it's about for you, correct?
Personally I post/comment on all the pages but I specifically post in here because it is important to enter this bubble of groupthink and show that alternative thought exists within the fanbase. For many years I ignored the AMT but eventually I got tired of every conservative being labelled as a rascist, dumb, christian, hateful, backwards biggot. If you spend a few minutes reading through these pages you will see it everywhere. This is a page that is all for tolerance except when it comes to conservative thought. What i get out of countering this argument is the hope that when some of you actually start to interact with a conservative you might actually realize that we are not the characiture you make us out too be. When you see we are good people with similar interests...music, love of this band etc maybe, just maybe some will open their minds and backoff on some of the hateful rhetoric.
Back off and tolerate what?
Mexicans are filth? Muslims are filth? People that protest need to be punched in the face? Uneducated people are awesome?
You actually expect people to 'tolerate' such values? You expect people to say, "I disagree with what you're saying about Mexican people, but I respect your opinion"? I must be missing something here.
You can't lump all republicans into the same camp as Trump. He has a very specific set of crazy ass supporters that represent 33% of the GOP. Lots of Republicans, particularly establishment and moderate Republicans despise Trump.
If I were going to a website that has a MAJORITY of members that were Conservatives, then started baiting threads everyday, that I knew were going to create arguments, I would hope to begin to think just maybe I needed to rethink my need for attention.
I've asked the same questions you've asked a couple of times. myyoung, and never really gotten much a fix on it. Odd as it may seem, there are some very conservative people who enjoy the music made by a band that has been outspokenly liberal in their viewpoints. I sometimes wonder if there are very liberal minded folks who still listen to Ted Nugent. Yes, very perplexing.
Is it really perplexing? With all due respect this can be seen as making inferences towards the old "you're with us or you're against us" mentality. Perhaps people find solace in Pearl Jam's art in ways that transcend political views. You can care deeply about people/things despite not seeing eye to eye on things political. There's a lot more to life than that! I know you know this so please don't read this as uppity or preachy but this line of discussion has come up before and it kind of comes across as exclusionary. Beyond the band preaching any type of hatred (which they obviously don't) I don't see why people of all backgrounds, opinions, etc., can't find something from them. I think it is pretty awesome that people enjoy the band despite having differing opinions and coming from different walks of life.
What do you think the band members would say if asked whether they think it's cool to question fandom based purely on political views? Beyond basic human rights stuff, politics are but a small picture of what someone is and I think they know this (but who knows, maybe I'm wrong).
I'm not saying that people who are highly conservative should not be Pearl Jam fans. I never said that. I just find it odd. It's not like the band's liberal/progressive attributes are like their clothes of hair cuts which have changed numerous times during their career. Those progressive elements have been an integral part of they band all along. So yeah, it is perplexing... to me at least. But do I think conservatives should not be allowed to be fans? Of course they can.
C'mon Brian...you know I'm one of these conservative fans. It is not odd at all. I always say...I like left wing music and right wing literature. I may not agree with Pearl Jam on many political issues but I absolutely love their passion. Music should be about love, introspection, idealism and expression of thought...any thought... and it only works when the artist is honest with who he or she is. Pearl Jam does this better then anyone and as a real conservative I will defend their or any progressives artist ability to speak even when it offends. Take Bushleaguer for example...it is the complete opposite from my thoughts on Bush but I actually think it is fantastic both as a "protest" song and as a straight-up art piece when the Bush mask is worn. This shouldn't be "perplexing" to you. Conservatives don't need "safe spaces" or "trigger warnings". We don't see opposing view points as "hate speech" and can actually respect those view points and even enjoy them when they are delivered intelligently. Don't be perplexed man.
100%
I'm glad you guys enjoy the music. I still think it's a bit strange that you come here to discuss politics. It's your perfect right, of course. But personally, I would not choose a band site that is so very much contrary to my beliefs on which to discuss politics. I might discuss the music or the weather or my cat or dog, but I would not have the slightest inclination to waste my time discussing politics. I don't see what you get out of it.
Just curious- besides A Moving Train, about what percentage of your time here do you guiys post on the various other forums sections- the Porch, Other Music, All Encompassing Trip, etc. Surely you must spend a majority of your posting time on PJ related forum sections since that's what it's about for you, correct?
Personally I post/comment on all the pages but I specifically post in here because it is important to enter this bubble of groupthink and show that alternative thought exists within the fanbase. For many years I ignored the AMT but eventually I got tired of every conservative being labelled as a rascist, dumb, christian, hateful, backwards biggot. If you spend a few minutes reading through these pages you will see it everywhere. This is a page that is all for tolerance except when it comes to conservative thought. What i get out of countering this argument is the hope that when some of you actually start to interact with a conservative you might actually realize that we are not the characiture you make us out too be. When you see we are good people with similar interests...music, love of this band etc maybe, just maybe some will open their minds and backoff on some of the hateful rhetoric.
Back off and tolerate what?
Mexicans are filth? Muslims are filth? People that protest need to be punched in the face? Uneducated people are awesome?
You actually expect people to 'tolerate' such values? You expect people to say, "I disagree with what you're saying about Mexican people, but I respect your opinion"? I must be missing something here.
You can't lump all republicans into the same camp as Trump. He has a very specific set of crazy ass supporters that represent 33% of the GOP. Lots of Republicans, particularly establishment and moderate Republicans despise Trump.
Agreed.
But what's being contested in these Trump threads is Trump, the rhetoric he spews and the supporters lapping it up. Asking for tolerance in such a context begs clarification.
If I were going to a website that has a MAJORITY of members that were Conservatives, then started baiting threads everyday, that I knew were going to create arguments, I would hope to begin to think just maybe I needed to rethink my need for attention.
I've asked the same questions you've asked a couple of times. myyoung, and never really gotten much a fix on it. Odd as it may seem, there are some very conservative people who enjoy the music made by a band that has been outspokenly liberal in their viewpoints. I sometimes wonder if there are very liberal minded folks who still listen to Ted Nugent. Yes, very perplexing.
Is it really perplexing? With all due respect this can be seen as making inferences towards the old "you're with us or you're against us" mentality. Perhaps people find solace in Pearl Jam's art in ways that transcend political views. You can care deeply about people/things despite not seeing eye to eye on things political. There's a lot more to life than that! I know you know this so please don't read this as uppity or preachy but this line of discussion has come up before and it kind of comes across as exclusionary. Beyond the band preaching any type of hatred (which they obviously don't) I don't see why people of all backgrounds, opinions, etc., can't find something from them. I think it is pretty awesome that people enjoy the band despite having differing opinions and coming from different walks of life.
What do you think the band members would say if asked whether they think it's cool to question fandom based purely on political views? Beyond basic human rights stuff, politics are but a small picture of what someone is and I think they know this (but who knows, maybe I'm wrong).
I'm not saying that people who are highly conservative should not be Pearl Jam fans. I never said that. I just find it odd. It's not like the band's liberal/progressive attributes are like their clothes of hair cuts which have changed numerous times during their career. Those progressive elements have been an integral part of they band all along. So yeah, it is perplexing... to me at least. But do I think conservatives should not be allowed to be fans? Of course they can.
C'mon Brian...you know I'm one of these conservative fans. It is not odd at all. I always say...I like left wing music and right wing literature. I may not agree with Pearl Jam on many political issues but I absolutely love their passion. Music should be about love, introspection, idealism and expression of thought...any thought... and it only works when the artist is honest with who he or she is. Pearl Jam does this better then anyone and as a real conservative I will defend their or any progressives artist ability to speak even when it offends. Take Bushleaguer for example...it is the complete opposite from my thoughts on Bush but I actually think it is fantastic both as a "protest" song and as a straight-up art piece when the Bush mask is worn. This shouldn't be "perplexing" to you. Conservatives don't need "safe spaces" or "trigger warnings". We don't see opposing view points as "hate speech" and can actually respect those view points and even enjoy them when they are delivered intelligently. Don't be perplexed man.
100%
I'm glad you guys enjoy the music. I still think it's a bit strange that you come here to discuss politics. It's your perfect right, of course. But personally, I would not choose a band site that is so very much contrary to my beliefs on which to discuss politics. I might discuss the music or the weather or my cat or dog, but I would not have the slightest inclination to waste my time discussing politics. I don't see what you get out of it.
Just curious- besides A Moving Train, about what percentage of your time here do you guiys post on the various other forums sections- the Porch, Other Music, All Encompassing Trip, etc. Surely you must spend a majority of your posting time on PJ related forum sections since that's what it's about for you, correct?
Personally I post/comment on all the pages but I specifically post in here because it is important to enter this bubble of groupthink and show that alternative thought exists within the fanbase. For many years I ignored the AMT but eventually I got tired of every conservative being labelled as a rascist, dumb, christian, hateful, backwards biggot. If you spend a few minutes reading through these pages you will see it everywhere. This is a page that is all for tolerance except when it comes to conservative thought. What i get out of countering this argument is the hope that when some of you actually start to interact with a conservative you might actually realize that we are not the characiture you make us out too be. When you see we are good people with similar interests...music, love of this band etc maybe, just maybe some will open their minds and backoff on some of the hateful rhetoric.
Back off and tolerate what?
Mexicans are filth? Muslims are filth? People that protest need to be punched in the face? Uneducated people are awesome?
You actually expect people to 'tolerate' such values? You expect people to say, "I disagree with what you're saying about Mexican people, but I respect your opinion"? I must be missing something here.
If I were going to a website that has a MAJORITY of members that were Conservatives, then started baiting threads everyday, that I knew were going to create arguments, I would hope to begin to think just maybe I needed to rethink my need for attention.
I've asked the same questions you've asked a couple of times. myyoung, and never really gotten much a fix on it. Odd as it may seem, there are some very conservative people who enjoy the music made by a band that has been outspokenly liberal in their viewpoints. I sometimes wonder if there are very liberal minded folks who still listen to Ted Nugent. Yes, very perplexing.
Is it really perplexing? With all due respect this can be seen as making inferences towards the old "you're with us or you're against us" mentality. Perhaps people find solace in Pearl Jam's art in ways that transcend political views. You can care deeply about people/things despite not seeing eye to eye on things political. There's a lot more to life than that! I know you know this so please don't read this as uppity or preachy but this line of discussion has come up before and it kind of comes across as exclusionary. Beyond the band preaching any type of hatred (which they obviously don't) I don't see why people of all backgrounds, opinions, etc., can't find something from them. I think it is pretty awesome that people enjoy the band despite having differing opinions and coming from different walks of life.
What do you think the band members would say if asked whether they think it's cool to question fandom based purely on political views? Beyond basic human rights stuff, politics are but a small picture of what someone is and I think they know this (but who knows, maybe I'm wrong).
I'm not saying that people who are highly conservative should not be Pearl Jam fans. I never said that. I just find it odd. It's not like the band's liberal/progressive attributes are like their clothes of hair cuts which have changed numerous times during their career. Those progressive elements have been an integral part of they band all along. So yeah, it is perplexing... to me at least. But do I think conservatives should not be allowed to be fans? Of course they can.
C'mon Brian...you know I'm one of these conservative fans. It is not odd at all. I always say...I like left wing music and right wing literature. I may not agree with Pearl Jam on many political issues but I absolutely love their passion. Music should be about love, introspection, idealism and expression of thought...any thought... and it only works when the artist is honest with who he or she is. Pearl Jam does this better then anyone and as a real conservative I will defend their or any progressives artist ability to speak even when it offends. Take Bushleaguer for example...it is the complete opposite from my thoughts on Bush but I actually think it is fantastic both as a "protest" song and as a straight-up art piece when the Bush mask is worn. This shouldn't be "perplexing" to you. Conservatives don't need "safe spaces" or "trigger warnings". We don't see opposing view points as "hate speech" and can actually respect those view points and even enjoy them when they are delivered intelligently. Don't be perplexed man.
100%
I'm glad you guys enjoy the music. I still think it's a bit strange that you come here to discuss politics. It's your perfect right, of course. But personally, I would not choose a band site that is so very much contrary to my beliefs on which to discuss politics. I might discuss the music or the weather or my cat or dog, but I would not have the slightest inclination to waste my time discussing politics. I don't see what you get out of it.
Just curious- besides A Moving Train, about what percentage of your time here do you guiys post on the various other forums sections- the Porch, Other Music, All Encompassing Trip, etc. Surely you must spend a majority of your posting time on PJ related forum sections since that's what it's about for you, correct?
Personally I post/comment on all the pages but I specifically post in here because it is important to enter this bubble of groupthink and show that alternative thought exists within the fanbase. For many years I ignored the AMT but eventually I got tired of every conservative being labelled as a rascist, dumb, christian, hateful, backwards biggot. If you spend a few minutes reading through these pages you will see it everywhere. This is a page that is all for tolerance except when it comes to conservative thought. What i get out of countering this argument is the hope that when some of you actually start to interact with a conservative you might actually realize that we are not the characiture you make us out too be. When you see we are good people with similar interests...music, love of this band etc maybe, just maybe some will open their minds and backoff on some of the hateful rhetoric.
Back off and tolerate what?
Mexicans are filth? Muslims are filth? People that protest need to be punched in the face? Uneducated people are awesome?
You actually expect people to 'tolerate' such values? You expect people to say, "I disagree with what you're saying about Mexican people, but I respect your opinion"? I must be missing something here.
You can't lump all republicans into the same camp as Trump. He has a very specific set of crazy ass supporters that represent 33% of the GOP. Lots of Republicans, particularly establishment and moderate Republicans despise Trump.
Agreed.
But what's being contested in these Trump threads is Trump, the rhetoric he spews and the supporters lapping it up. Asking for tolerance in such a context begs clarification.
This.
I know not all conservatives are hateful, just like y'all (hopefully) know that all liberals are lazy beggars.
If I were going to a website that has a MAJORITY of members that were Conservatives, then started baiting threads everyday, that I knew were going to create arguments, I would hope to begin to think just maybe I needed to rethink my need for attention.
I've asked the same questions you've asked a couple of times. myyoung, and never really gotten much a fix on it. Odd as it may seem, there are some very conservative people who enjoy the music made by a band t
Is it really perplexing? With all due respect this can be seen as making inferences towards the old "you're with us or you're against us" mentality. Perhaps people find solace in Pearl Jam's art in ways that transcend political views. You can care deeply about people/things despite not seeing eye to eye on things political. There's a lot more to life than that! I know you know this so please don't read this as uppity or preachy but this line of discussion has come up before and it kind of comes across as exclusionary. Beyond the band preaching any type of hatred (which they obviously don't) I don't see why people of all backgrounds, opinions, etc., can't find something from them. I think it is pretty awesome that people enjoy the band despite having differing opinions and coming from different walks of life.
What do you think the band members would say if asked whether they think it's cool to question fandom based purely on political views? Beyond basic human rights stuff, politics are but a small picture of what someone is and I think they know this (but who knows, maybe I'm wrong).
I'm not saying that people who are highly conservative should not be Pearl Jam fans. I never said that. I just find it odd. It's not like the band's liberal/progressive attributes are like their clothes of hair cuts which have changed numerous times during their career. Those progressive elements have been an integral part of they band all along. So yeah, it is perplexing... to me at least. But do I think conservatives should not be allowed to be fans? Of course they can.
C'mon Brian...you know I'm one of these conservative fans. It is not odd at all. I always say...I like left wing music and right wing literature. I may not agree with Pearl Jam on many political issues but I absolutely love their passion. Music should be about love, introspection, idealism and expression of thought...any thought... and it only works when the artist is honest with who he or she is. Pearl Jam does this better then anyone and as a real conservative I will defend their or any progressives artist ability to speak even when it offends. Take Bushleaguer for example...it is the complete opposite from my thoughts on Bush but I actually think it is fantastic both as a "protest" song and as a straight-up art piece when the Bush mask is worn. This shouldn't be "perplexing" to you. Conservatives don't need "safe spaces" or "trigger warnings". We don't see opposing view points as "hate speech" and can actually respect those view points and even enjoy them when they are delivered intelligently. Don't be perplexed man.
100%
I'm glad you guys enjoy the music. I still think it's a bit strange that you come here to discuss politics. It's your perfect right, of course. But personally, I would not choose a band site that is so very much contrary to my beliefs on which to discuss politics. I might discuss the music or the weather or my cat or dog, but I would not have the slightest inclination to waste my time discussing politics. I don't see what you get out of it.
Just curious- besides A Moving Train, about what percentage of your time here do you guiys post on the various other forums sections- the Porch, Other Music, All Encompassing Trip, etc. Surely you must spend a majority of your posting time on PJ related forum sections since that's what it's about for you, correct?
Personally I post/comment on all the pages but I specifically post in here because it is important to enter this bubble of groupthink and show that alternative thought exists within the fanbase. For many years I ignored the AMT but eventually I got tired of every conservative being labelled as a rascist, dumb, christian, hateful, backwards biggot. If you spend a few minutes reading through these pages you will see it everywhere. This is a page that is all for tolerance except when it comes to conservative thought. What i get out of countering this argument is the hope that when some of you actually start to interact with a conservative you might actually realize that we are not the characiture you make us out too be. When you see we are good people with similar interests...music, love of this band etc maybe, just maybe some will open their minds and backoff on some of the hateful rhetoric.
Back off and tolerate what?
Mexicans are filth? Muslims are filth? People that protest need to be punched in the face? Uneducated people are awesome?
You actually expect people to 'tolerate' such values? You expect people to say, "I disagree with what you're saying about Mexican people, but I respect your opinion"? I must be missing something here.
I'm not sure, but hmmm. Let me think. I'll surmise about as far as your ability to engage in a meaningful discussion? Sooo... say... two abbreviated sentences designed to irritate?
If I were going to a website that has a MAJORITY of members that were Conservatives, then started baiting threads everyday, that I knew were going to create arguments, I would hope to begin to think just maybe I needed to rethink my need for attention.
I've asked the same questions you've asked a couple of times. myyoung, and never really gotten much a fix on it. Odd as it may seem, there are some very conservative people who enjoy the music made by a band that has been outspokenly liberal in their viewpoints. I sometimes wonder if there are very liberal minded folks who still listen to Ted Nugent. Yes, very perplexing.
Is it really perplexing? With all due respect this can be seen as making inferences towards the old "you're with us or you're against us" mentality. Perhaps people find solace in Pearl Jam's art in ways that transcend political views. You can care deeply about people/things despite not seeing eye to eye on things political. There's a lot more to life than that! I know you know this so please don't read this as uppity or preachy but this line of discussion has come up before and it kind of comes across as exclusionary. Beyond the band preaching any type of hatred (which they obviously don't) I don't see why people of all backgrounds, opinions, etc., can't find something from them. I think it is pretty awesome that people enjoy the band despite having differing opinions and coming from different walks of life.
What do you think the band members would say if asked whether they think it's cool to question fandom based purely on political views? Beyond basic human rights stuff, politics are but a small picture of what someone is and I think they know this (but who knows, maybe I'm wrong).
I'm not saying that people who are highly conservative should not be Pearl Jam fans. I never said that. I just find it odd. It's not like the band's liberal/progressive attributes are like their clothes of hair cuts which have changed numerous times during their career. Those progressive elements have been an integral part of they band all along. So yeah, it is perplexing... to me at least. But do I think conservatives should not be allowed to be fans? Of course they can.
C'mon Brian...you know I'm one of these conservative fans. It is not odd at all. I always say...I like left wing music and right wing literature. I may not agree with Pearl Jam on many political issues but I absolutely love their passion. Music should be about love, introspection, idealism and expression of thought...any thought... and it only works when the artist is honest with who he or she is. Pearl Jam does this better then anyone and as a real conservative I will defend their or any progressives artist ability to speak even when it offends. Take Bushleaguer for example...it is the complete opposite from my thoughts on Bush but I actually think it is fantastic both as a "protest" song and as a straight-up art piece when the Bush mask is worn. This shouldn't be "perplexing" to you. Conservatives don't need "safe spaces" or "trigger warnings". We don't see opposing view points as "hate speech" and can actually respect those view points and even enjoy them when they are delivered intelligently. Don't be perplexed man.
100%
I'm glad you guys enjoy the music. I still think it's a bit strange that you come here to discuss politics. It's your perfect right, of course. But personally, I would not choose a band site that is so very much contrary to my beliefs on which to discuss politics. I might discuss the music or the weather or my cat or dog, but I would not have the slightest inclination to waste my time discussing politics. I don't see what you get out of it.
Just curious- besides A Moving Train, about what percentage of your time here do you guiys post on the various other forums sections- the Porch, Other Music, All Encompassing Trip, etc. Surely you must spend a majority of your posting time on PJ related forum sections since that's what it's about for you, correct?
Personally I post/comment on all the pages but I specifically post in here because it is important to enter this bubble of groupthink and show that alternative thought exists within the fanbase. For many years I ignored the AMT but eventually I got tired of every conservative being labelled as a rascist, dumb, christian, hateful, backwards biggot. If you spend a few minutes reading through these pages you will see it everywhere. This is a page that is all for tolerance except when it comes to conservative thought. What i get out of countering this argument is the hope that when some of you actually start to interact with a conservative you might actually realize that we are not the characiture you make us out too be. When you see we are good people with similar interests...music, love of this band etc maybe, just maybe some will open their minds and backoff on some of the hateful rhetoric.
Back off and tolerate what?
Mexicans are filth? Muslims are filth? People that protest need to be punched in the face? Uneducated people are awesome?
You actually expect people to 'tolerate' such values? You expect people to say, "I disagree with what you're saying about Mexican people, but I respect your opinion"? I must be missing something here.
You can't lump all republicans into the same camp as Trump. He has a very specific set of crazy ass supporters that represent 33% of the GOP. Lots of Republicans, particularly establishment and moderate Republicans despise Trump.
Agreed.
But what's being contested in these Trump threads is Trump, the rhetoric he spews and the supporters lapping it up. Asking for tolerance in such a context begs clarification.
This.
I know not all conservatives are hateful, just like y'all (hopefully) know that all liberals are lazy beggars.
I think you are missing a very important "not" in this statement.
If I were going to a website that has a MAJORITY of members that were Conservatives, then started baiting threads everyday, that I knew were going to create arguments, I would hope to begin to think just maybe I needed to rethink my need for attention.
I've asked the same questions you've asked a couple of times. myyoung, and never really gotten much a fix on it. Odd as it may seem, there are some very conservative people who enjoy the music made by a band that has been outspokenly liberal in their viewpoints. I sometimes wonder if there are very liberal minded folks who still listen to Ted Nugent. Yes, very perplexing.
Is it really perplexing? With all due respect this can be seen as making inferences towards the old "you're with us or you're against us" mentality. Perhaps people find solace in Pearl Jam's art in ways that transcend political views. You can care deeply about people/things despite not seeing eye to eye on things political. There's a lot more to life than that! I know you know this so please don't read this as uppity or preachy but this line of discussion has come up before and it kind of comes across as exclusionary. Beyond the band preaching any type of hatred (which they obviously don't) I don't see why people of all backgrounds, opinions, etc., can't find something from them. I think it is pretty awesome that people enjoy the band despite having differing opinions and coming from different walks of life.
What do you think the band members would say if asked whether they think it's cool to question fandom based purely on political views? Beyond basic human rights stuff, politics are but a small picture of what someone is and I think they know this (but who knows, maybe I'm wrong).
I'm not saying that people who are highly conservative should not be Pearl Jam fans. I never said that. I just find it odd. It's not like the band's liberal/progressive attributes are like their clothes of hair cuts which have changed numerous times during their career. Those progressive elements have been an integral part of they band all along. So yeah, it is perplexing... to me at least. But do I think conservatives should not be allowed to be fans? Of course they can.
C'mon Brian...you know I'm one of these conservative fans. It is not odd at all. I always say...I like left wing music and right wing literature. I may not agree with Pearl Jam on many political issues but I absolutely love their passion. Music should be about love, introspection, idealism and expression of thought...any thought... and it only works when the artist is honest with who he or she is. Pearl Jam does this better then anyone and as a real conservative I will defend their or any progressives artist ability to speak even when it offends. Take Bushleaguer for example...it is the complete opposite from my thoughts on Bush but I actually think it is fantastic both as a "protest" song and as a straight-up art piece when the Bush mask is worn. This shouldn't be "perplexing" to you. Conservatives don't need "safe spaces" or "trigger warnings". We don't see opposing view points as "hate speech" and can actually respect those view points and even enjoy them when they are delivered intelligently. Don't be perplexed man.
100%
I'm glad you guys enjoy the music. I still think it's a bit strange that you come here to discuss politics. It's your perfect right, of course. But personally, I would not choose a band site that is so very much contrary to my beliefs on which to discuss politics. I might discuss the music or the weather or my cat or dog, but I would not have the slightest inclination to waste my time discussing politics. I don't see what you get out of it.
Just curious- besides A Moving Train, about what percentage of your time here do you guiys post on the various other forums sections- the Porch, Other Music, All Encompassing Trip, etc. Surely you must spend a majority of your posting time on PJ related forum sections since that's what it's about for you, correct?
Personally I post/comment on all the pages but I specifically post in here because it is important to enter this bubble of groupthink and show that alternative thought exists within the fanbase. For many years I ignored the AMT but eventually I got tired of every conservative being labelled as a rascist, dumb, christian, hateful, backwards biggot. If you spend a few minutes reading through these pages you will see it everywhere. This is a page that is all for tolerance except when it comes to conservative thought. What i get out of countering this argument is the hope that when some of you actually start to interact with a conservative you might actually realize that we are not the characiture you make us out too be. When you see we are good people with similar interests...music, love of this band etc maybe, just maybe some will open their minds and backoff on some of the hateful rhetoric.
Back off and tolerate what?
Mexicans are filth? Muslims are filth? People that protest need to be punched in the face? Uneducated people are awesome?
You actually expect people to 'tolerate' such values? You expect people to say, "I disagree with what you're saying about Mexican people, but I respect your opinion"? I must be missing something here.
You can't lump all republicans into the same camp as Trump. He has a very specific set of crazy ass supporters that represent 33% of the GOP. Lots of Republicans, particularly establishment and moderate Republicans despise Trump.
Agreed.
But what's being contested in these Trump threads is Trump, the rhetoric he spews and the supporters lapping it up. Asking for tolerance in such a context begs clarification.
This.
I know not all conservatives are hateful, just like y'all (hopefully) know that all liberals are lazy beggars.
I think you are missing a very important "not" in this statement.
Hahaha yeah I am missing the not, I will let it stand, a nice chuckle for the cons.
Trump and Sanders supporters going to war with each other helps only the Republican and Democratic establishments. Bernie can't have his people getting dragged down into this muck.
You're right, it hurts Bernie. Strategic blunder by his fan base. Not that I'm drawing equivalency between the movements AT ALL, but that was what was so effective about the Civil Rights movement. It showed peace vs. violence. Democrats and left leaning people cannot respond with violence and disruption. They must stick with peaceful protests.
Absolutely but the problem is that his supporters are populated by the same Social Justice Warriors that aim to shut down speech they don't agree with at college campuses across North America. These kids have grown up thinking this behaviour is ok and that they have a right to "not be offended". Nobody has ever taught them what correct political discourse is.
I'm not sure how different they are than the kids coming out of the late 60's when the issue was Vietnam.
What everyone needs to remember is what happened when the Dems put up McGovern in 72 and the GOP with Goldwater in 64. These were both hard core warriors of their respective parties. And they both got smoked in the general.
Except Vietnam and the threat of being drafted in a war they didn't believe in was real. The civil rights issues of the time were real. These kids have it good compared to the children of the 60's.
If I were going to a website that has a MAJORITY of members that were Conservatives, then started baiting threads everyday, that I knew were going to create arguments, I would hope to begin to think just maybe I needed to rethink my need for attention.
I've asked the same questions you've asked a couple of times. myyoung, and never really gotten much a fix on it. Odd as it may seem, there are some very conservative people who enjoy the music made by a band that has been outspokenly liberal in their viewpoints. I sometimes wonder if there are very liberal minded folks who still listen to Ted Nugent. Yes, very perplexing.
Is it really perplexing? With all due respect this can be seen as making inferences towards the old "you're with us or you're against us" mentality. Perhaps people find solace in Pearl Jam's art in ways that transcend political views. You can care deeply about people/things despite not seeing eye to eye on things political. There's a lot more to life than that! I know you know this so please don't read this as uppity or preachy but this line of discussion has come up before and it kind of comes across as exclusionary. Beyond the band preaching any type of hatred (which they obviously don't) I don't see why people of all backgrounds, opinions, etc., can't find something from them. I think it is pretty awesome that people enjoy the band despite having differing opinions and coming from different walks of life.
What do you think the band members would say if asked whether they think it's cool to question fandom based purely on political views? Beyond basic human rights stuff, politics are but a small picture of what someone is and I think they know this (but who knows, maybe I'm wrong).
I'm not saying that people who are highly conservative should not be Pearl Jam fans. I never said that. I just find it odd. It's not like the band's liberal/progressive attributes are like their clothes of hair cuts which have changed numerous times during their career. Those progressive elements have been an integral part of they band all along. So yeah, it is perplexing... to me at least. But do I think conservatives should not be allowed to be fans? Of course they can.
C'mon Brian...you know I'm one of these conservative fans. It is not odd at all. I always say...I like left wing music and right wing literature. I may not agree with Pearl Jam on many political issues but I absolutely love their passion. Music should be about love, introspection, idealism and expression of thought...any thought... and it only works when the artist is honest with who he or she is. Pearl Jam does this better then anyone and as a real conservative I will defend their or any progressives artist ability to speak even when it offends. Take Bushleaguer for example...it is the complete opposite from my thoughts on Bush but I actually think it is fantastic both as a "protest" song and as a straight-up art piece when the Bush mask is worn. This shouldn't be "perplexing" to you. Conservatives don't need "safe spaces" or "trigger warnings". We don't see opposing view points as "hate speech" and can actually respect those view points and even enjoy them when they are delivered intelligently. Don't be perplexed man.
100%
I'm glad you guys enjoy the music. I still think it's a bit strange that you come here to discuss politics. It's your perfect right, of course. But personally, I would not choose a band site that is so very much contrary to my beliefs on which to discuss politics. I might discuss the music or the weather or my cat or dog, but I would not have the slightest inclination to waste my time discussing politics. I don't see what you get out of it.
Just curious- besides A Moving Train, about what percentage of your time here do you guiys post on the various other forums sections- the Porch, Other Music, All Encompassing Trip, etc. Surely you must spend a majority of your posting time on PJ related forum sections since that's what it's about for you, correct?
Personally I post/comment on all the pages but I specifically post in here because it is important to enter this bubble of groupthink and show that alternative thought exists within the fanbase. For many years I ignored the AMT but eventually I got tired of every conservative being labelled as a rascist, dumb, christian, hateful, backwards biggot. If you spend a few minutes reading through these pages you will see it everywhere. This is a page that is all for tolerance except when it comes to conservative thought. What i get out of countering this argument is the hope that when some of you actually start to interact with a conservative you might actually realize that we are not the characiture you make us out too be. When you see we are good people with similar interests...music, love of this band etc maybe, just maybe some will open their minds and backoff on some of the hateful rhetoric.
Back off and tolerate what?
Mexicans are filth? Muslims are filth? People that protest need to be punched in the face? Uneducated people are awesome?
You actually expect people to 'tolerate' such values? You expect people to say, "I disagree with what you're saying about Mexican people, but I respect your opinion"? I must be missing something here.
What you're missing is that nobody has used the word "filth" but you.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,959
Too many posts to reply to specifically but what I want to ask our conservative members here is, where do you draw the line on your conservatism? Do any of you really stand with Trump and his racist, neo-nazi agenda? If so, can you really expect the majority of others who post here to accept that as a reasonable and rational choice? I'm not talking about economics of abortion or other issues that could be interpreted as having grey areas. I'm talking about Donald Trump, a man who is running for POTUS on a racist, hate based platform. If you can say, "Yes, I support that agenda" then say so. Tell us why you hate blacks and Hispanics. Tell us why it's ok in your viewpoint for Trump to encourage his followers to use violence against his opponents. Tell us why its ok for Trump to refer to immigrants as “illegals” and the children of illegal immigrants as “anchor babies". Tell us why you think these things are ok. And after you do that, please stop arguing about why some of us wonder why the hell you want to argue those points here.
I don't care if you are fiscally conservative or you hate granola or believe those of us who are in favor of peace are naive but if you support someone like Trump who promotes hate you are not going to get one inch of slack from me. Sorry, but I don't buy that kind of bullshit. No way.
Too many posts to reply to specifically but what I want to ask our conservative members here is, where do you draw the line on your conservatism? Do any of you really stand with Trump and his racist, neo-nazi agenda? If so, can you really expect the majority of others who post here to accept that as a reasonable and rational choice? I'm not talking about economics of abortion or other issues that could be interpreted as having grey areas. I'm talking about Donald Trump, a man who is running for POTUS on a racist, hate based platform. If you can say, "Yes, I support that agenda" then say so. Tell us why you hate blacks and Hispanics. Tell us why it's ok in your viewpoint for Trump to encourage his followers to use violence against his opponents. Tell us why its ok for Trump to refer to immigrants as “illegals” and the children of illegal immigrants as “anchor babies". Tell us why you think these things are ok. And after you do that, please stop arguing about why some of us wonder why the hell you want to argue those points here.
I don't care if you are fiscally conservative or you hate granola or believe those of us who are in favor of peace are naive but if you support someone like Trump who promotes hate you are not going to get one inch of slack from me. Sorry, but I don't buy that kind of bullshit. No way.
Granola is dry and bland. I like Reese Peanut Butter Puffs.
I like Donald Trumps humour. "Some, are good people" - that's funny shit.
If I were going to a website that has a MAJORITY of members that were Conservatives, then started baiting threads everyday, that I knew were going to create arguments, I would hope to begin to think just maybe I needed to rethink my need for attention.
I've asked the same questions you've asked a couple of times. myyoung, and never really gotten much a fix on it. Odd as it may seem, there are some very conservative people who enjoy the music made by a band that has been outspokenly liberal in their viewpoints. I sometimes wonder if there are very liberal minded folks who still listen to Ted Nugent. Yes, very perplexing.
Is it really perplexing? With all due respect this can be seen as making inferences towards the old "you're with us or you're against us" mentality. Perhaps people find solace in Pearl Jam's art in ways that transcend political views. You can care deeply about people/things despite not seeing eye to eye on things political. There's a lot more to life than that! I know you know this so please don't read this as uppity or preachy but this line of discussion has come up before and it kind of comes across as exclusionary. Beyond the band preaching any type of hatred (which they obviously don't) I don't see why people of all backgrounds, opinions, etc., can't find something from them. I think it is pretty awesome that people enjoy the band despite having differing opinions and coming from different walks of life.
What do you think the band members would say if asked whether they think it's cool to question fandom based purely on political views? Beyond basic human rights stuff, politics are but a small picture of what someone is and I think they know this (but who knows, maybe I'm wrong).
I'm not saying that people who are highly conservative should not be Pearl Jam fans. I never said that. I just find it odd. It's not like the band's liberal/progressive attributes are like their clothes of hair cuts which have changed numerous times during their career. Those progressive elements have been an integral part of they band all along. So yeah, it is perplexing... to me at least. But do I think conservatives should not be allowed to be fans? Of course they can.
C'mon Brian...you know I'm one of these conservative fans. It is not odd at all. I always say...I like left wing music and right wing literature. I may not agree with Pearl Jam on many political issues but I absolutely love their passion. Music should be about love, introspection, idealism and expression of thought...any thought... and it only works when the artist is honest with who he or she is. Pearl Jam does this better then anyone and as a real conservative I will defend their or any progressives artist ability to speak even when it offends. Take Bushleaguer for example...it is the complete opposite from my thoughts on Bush but I actually think it is fantastic both as a "protest" song and as a straight-up art piece when the Bush mask is worn. This shouldn't be "perplexing" to you. Conservatives don't need "safe spaces" or "trigger warnings". We don't see opposing view points as "hate speech" and can actually respect those view points and even enjoy them when they are delivered intelligently. Don't be perplexed man.
100%
I'm glad you guys enjoy the music. I still think it's a bit strange that you come here to discuss politics. It's your perfect right, of course. But personally, I would not choose a band site that is so very much contrary to my beliefs on which to discuss politics. I might discuss the music or the weather or my cat or dog, but I would not have the slightest inclination to waste my time discussing politics. I don't see what you get out of it.
Just curious- besides A Moving Train, about what percentage of your time here do you guiys post on the various other forums sections- the Porch, Other Music, All Encompassing Trip, etc. Surely you must spend a majority of your posting time on PJ related forum sections since that's what it's about for you, correct?
Personally I post/comment on all the pages but I specifically post in here because it is important to enter this bubble of groupthink and show that alternative thought exists within the fanbase. For many years I ignored the AMT but eventually I got tired of every conservative being labelled as a rascist, dumb, christian, hateful, backwards biggot. If you spend a few minutes reading through these pages you will see it everywhere. This is a page that is all for tolerance except when it comes to conservative thought. What i get out of countering this argument is the hope that when some of you actually start to interact with a conservative you might actually realize that we are not the characiture you make us out too be. When you see we are good people with similar interests...music, love of this band etc maybe, just maybe some will open their minds and backoff on some of the hateful rhetoric.
Back off and tolerate what?
Mexicans are filth? Muslims are filth? People that protest need to be punched in the face? Uneducated people are awesome?
You actually expect people to 'tolerate' such values? You expect people to say, "I disagree with what you're saying about Mexican people, but I respect your opinion"? I must be missing something here.
You can't lump all republicans into the same camp as Trump. He has a very specific set of crazy ass supporters that represent 33% of the GOP. Lots of Republicans, particularly establishment and moderate Republicans despise Trump.
And if he gets the nomination? A lot of them will vote Republican and vote for Trump. A lot will probably sit it out but a large number of people who say they despise Trump will vote for him if he is the candidate.
Too many posts to reply to specifically but what I want to ask our conservative members here is, where do you draw the line on your conservatism? Do any of you really stand with Trump and his racist, neo-nazi agenda? If so, can you really expect the majority of others who post here to accept that as a reasonable and rational choice? I'm not talking about economics of abortion or other issues that could be interpreted as having grey areas. I'm talking about Donald Trump, a man who is running for POTUS on a racist, hate based platform. If you can say, "Yes, I support that agenda" then say so. Tell us why you hate blacks and Hispanics. Tell us why it's ok in your viewpoint for Trump to encourage his followers to use violence against his opponents. Tell us why its ok for Trump to refer to immigrants as “illegals” and the children of illegal immigrants as “anchor babies". Tell us why you think these things are ok. And after you do that, please stop arguing about why some of us wonder why the hell you want to argue those points here.
I don't care if you are fiscally conservative or you hate granola or believe those of us who are in favor of peace are naive but if you support someone like Trump who promotes hate you are not going to get one inch of slack from me. Sorry, but I don't buy that kind of bullshit. No way.
My husband is a registered Republican, but like many Republicans feels the party left him years ago (hijacked by the religious right). He and his mostly Republican family loathe Donald Trump - they think he's a racist, a buffoon, an embarrassment to the party, etc. None of our Republican friends support Trump. (None of them are Cruz or Rubio fans either, btw.)
If I were going to a website that has a MAJORITY of members that were Conservatives, then started baiting threads everyday, that I knew were going to create arguments, I would hope to begin to think just maybe I needed to rethink my need for attention.
I've asked the same questions you've asked a couple of times. myyoung, and never really gotten much a fix on it. Odd as it may seem, there are some very conservative people who enjoy the music made by a band that has been outspokenly liberal in their viewpoints. I sometimes wonder if there are very liberal minded folks who still listen to Ted Nugent. Yes, very perplexing.
Is it really perplexing? With all due respect this can be seen as making inferences towards the old "you're with us or you're against us" mentality. Perhaps people find solace in Pearl Jam's art in ways that transcend political views. You can care deeply about people/things despite not seeing eye to eye on things political. There's a lot more to life than that! I know you know this so please don't read this as uppity or preachy but this line of discussion has come up before and it kind of comes across as exclusionary. Beyond the band preaching any type of hatred (which they obviously don't) I don't see why people of all backgrounds, opinions, etc., can't find something from them. I think it is pretty awesome that people enjoy the band despite having differing opinions and coming from different walks of life.
What do you think the band members would say if asked whether they think it's cool to question fandom based purely on political views? Beyond basic human rights stuff, politics are but a small picture of what someone is and I think they know this (but who knows, maybe I'm wrong).
I'm not saying that people who are highly conservative should not be Pearl Jam fans. I never said that. I just find it odd. It's not like the band's liberal/progressive attributes are like their clothes of hair cuts which have changed numerous times during their career. Those progressive elements have been an integral part of they band all along. So yeah, it is perplexing... to me at least. But do I think conservatives should not be allowed to be fans? Of course they can.
C'mon Brian...you know I'm one of these conservative fans. It is not odd at all. I always say...I like left wing music and right wing literature. I may not agree with Pearl Jam on many political issues but I absolutely love their passion. Music should be about love, introspection, idealism and expression of thought...any thought... and it only works when the artist is honest with who he or she is. Pearl Jam does this better then anyone and as a real conservative I will defend their or any progressives artist ability to speak even when it offends. Take Bushleaguer for example...it is the complete opposite from my thoughts on Bush but I actually think it is fantastic both as a "protest" song and as a straight-up art piece when the Bush mask is worn. This shouldn't be "perplexing" to you. Conservatives don't need "safe spaces" or "trigger warnings". We don't see opposing view points as "hate speech" and can actually respect those view points and even enjoy them when they are delivered intelligently. Don't be perplexed man.
100%
I'm glad you guys enjoy the music. I still think it's a bit strange that you come here to discuss politics. It's your perfect right, of course. But personally, I would not choose a band site that is so very much contrary to my beliefs on which to discuss politics. I might discuss the music or the weather or my cat or dog, but I would not have the slightest inclination to waste my time discussing politics. I don't see what you get out of it.
Just curious- besides A Moving Train, about what percentage of your time here do you guiys post on the various other forums sections- the Porch, Other Music, All Encompassing Trip, etc. Surely you must spend a majority of your posting time on PJ related forum sections since that's what it's about for you, correct?
Personally I post/comment on all the pages but I specifically post in here because it is important to enter this bubble of groupthink and show that alternative thought exists within the fanbase. For many years I ignored the AMT but eventually I got tired of every conservative being labelled as a rascist, dumb, christian, hateful, backwards biggot. If you spend a few minutes reading through these pages you will see it everywhere. This is a page that is all for tolerance except when it comes to conservative thought. What i get out of countering this argument is the hope that when some of you actually start to interact with a conservative you might actually realize that we are not the characiture you make us out too be. When you see we are good people with similar interests...music, love of this band etc maybe, just maybe some will open their minds and backoff on some of the hateful rhetoric.
Back off and tolerate what?
Mexicans are filth? Muslims are filth? People that protest need to be punched in the face? Uneducated people are awesome?
You actually expect people to 'tolerate' such values? You expect people to say, "I disagree with what you're saying about Mexican people, but I respect your opinion"? I must be missing something here.
You can't lump all republicans into the same camp as Trump. He has a very specific set of crazy ass supporters that represent 33% of the GOP. Lots of Republicans, particularly establishment and moderate Republicans despise Trump.
And if he gets the nomination? A lot of them will vote Republican and vote for Trump. A lot will probably sit it out but a large number of people who say they despise Trump will vote for him if he is the candidate.
A lot of people here keep talking like the cavalry will swoop in to rescue America from Trump. In the meantime he is the frontrunner and gaining. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have the %50 it is a fact that out of all the people who have voted the majority has gone with Trump. Just like Hilary is winning. It's as if the blinders are on even thicker for the libs on this train they refuse to acknowledge a guy like Trump is kicking some serious ass.
Unreal. This reporter was just covering the rally and got caught up in the chaos. The police (as the video proves) knocked him down without provocation and arrested him, even after he offered to show his CBS press credentials. What in the world is going on out there? This is not the first time he has experienced issues at Trump rallies, although it seems it may be the first time it was the police that came after him.
CBS reporter arrested at cancelled Chicago rally described racism he faced from Trump supporters
Too many posts to reply to specifically but what I want to ask our conservative members here is, where do you draw the line on your conservatism? Do any of you really stand with Trump and his racist, neo-nazi agenda? If so, can you really expect the majority of others who post here to accept that as a reasonable and rational choice? I'm not talking about economics of abortion or other issues that could be interpreted as having grey areas. I'm talking about Donald Trump, a man who is running for POTUS on a racist, hate based platform. If you can say, "Yes, I support that agenda" then say so. Tell us why you hate blacks and Hispanics. Tell us why it's ok in your viewpoint for Trump to encourage his followers to use violence against his opponents. Tell us why its ok for Trump to refer to immigrants as “illegals” and the children of illegal immigrants as “anchor babies". Tell us why you think these things are ok. And after you do that, please stop arguing about why some of us wonder why the hell you want to argue those points here.
I don't care if you are fiscally conservative or you hate granola or believe those of us who are in favor of peace are naive but if you support someone like Trump who promotes hate you are not going to get one inch of slack from me. Sorry, but I don't buy that kind of bullshit. No way.
My husband is a registered Republican, but like many Republicans feels the party left him years ago (hijacked by the religious right). He and his mostly Republican family loathe Donald Trump - they think he's a racist, a buffoon, an embarrassment to the party, etc. None of our Republican friends support Trump. (None of them are Cruz or Rubio fans either, btw.)
My wife was registered Republican when I met her (she's independent now) and is still more conservative than I am (yeah, I know, shocker right, haha!) and she feels the same way. She see Trump as a dangerous, hateful influence on our society and she has absolutely no problem saying what she feels that way. She too believes the Republican Party has been hijacked and give no support to any of their front runners, least of all that hateful bigot, Donald Trump.
If people threw tomatoes (remember the shoe thrown at Bush) at Trump most people on this train would condone it and cheer gallantly. Yet all that he said was "If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them," Trump said. "Just knock the hell — I promise you, I'll pay the legal fees." http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-legal-fees-punch-protester-2016-3
If I were going to a website that has a MAJORITY of members that were Conservatives, then started baiting threads everyday, that I knew were going to create arguments, I would hope to begin to think just maybe I needed to rethink my need for attention.
I've asked the same questions you've asked a couple of times. myyoung, and never really gotten much a fix on it. Odd as it may seem, there are some very conservative people who enjoy the music made by a band that has been outspokenly liberal in their viewpoints. I sometimes wonder if there are very liberal minded folks who still listen to Ted Nugent. Yes, very perplexing.
Is it really perplexing? With all due respect this can be seen as making inferences towards the old "you're with us or you're against us" mentality. Perhaps people find solace in Pearl Jam's art in ways that transcend political views. You can care deeply about people/things despite not seeing eye to eye on things political. There's a lot more to life than that! I know you know this so please don't read this as uppity or preachy but this line of discussion has come up before and it kind of comes across as exclusionary. Beyond the band preaching any type of hatred (which they obviously don't) I don't see why people of all backgrounds, opinions, etc., can't find something from them. I think it is pretty awesome that people enjoy the band despite having differing opinions and coming from different walks of life.
What do you think the band members would say if asked whether they think it's cool to question fandom based purely on political views? Beyond basic human rights stuff, politics are but a small picture of what someone is and I think they know this (but who knows, maybe I'm wrong).
I'm not saying that people who are highly conservative should not be Pearl Jam fans. I never said that. I just find it odd. It's not like the band's liberal/progressive attributes are like their clothes of hair cuts which have changed numerous times during their career. Those progressive elements have been an integral part of they band all along. So yeah, it is perplexing... to me at least. But do I think conservatives should not be allowed to be fans? Of course they can.
C'mon Brian...you know I'm one of these conservative fans. It is not odd at all. I always say...I like left wing music and right wing literature. I may not agree with Pearl Jam on many political issues but I absolutely love their passion. Music should be about love, introspection, idealism and expression of thought...any thought... and it only works when the artist is honest with who he or she is. Pearl Jam does this better then anyone and as a real conservative I will defend their or any progressives artist ability to speak even when it offends. Take Bushleaguer for example...it is the complete opposite from my thoughts on Bush but I actually think it is fantastic both as a "protest" song and as a straight-up art piece when the Bush mask is worn. This shouldn't be "perplexing" to you. Conservatives don't need "safe spaces" or "trigger warnings". We don't see opposing view points as "hate speech" and can actually respect those view points and even enjoy them when they are delivered intelligently. Don't be perplexed man.
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I'm glad you guys enjoy the music. I still think it's a bit strange that you come here to discuss politics. It's your perfect right, of course. But personally, I would not choose a band site that is so very much contrary to my beliefs on which to discuss politics. I might discuss the music or the weather or my cat or dog, but I would not have the slightest inclination to waste my time discussing politics. I don't see what you get out of it.
Just curious- besides A Moving Train, about what percentage of your time here do you guiys post on the various other forums sections- the Porch, Other Music, All Encompassing Trip, etc. Surely you must spend a majority of your posting time on PJ related forum sections since that's what it's about for you, correct?
Personally I post/comment on all the pages but I specifically post in here because it is important to enter this bubble of groupthink and show that alternative thought exists within the fanbase. For many years I ignored the AMT but eventually I got tired of every conservative being labelled as a rascist, dumb, christian, hateful, backwards biggot. If you spend a few minutes reading through these pages you will see it everywhere. This is a page that is all for tolerance except when it comes to conservative thought. What i get out of countering this argument is the hope that when some of you actually start to interact with a conservative you might actually realize that we are not the characiture you make us out too be. When you see we are good people with similar interests...music, love of this band etc maybe, just maybe some will open their minds and backoff on some of the hateful rhetoric.
Back off and tolerate what?
Mexicans are filth? Muslims are filth? People that protest need to be punched in the face? Uneducated people are awesome?
You actually expect people to 'tolerate' such values? You expect people to say, "I disagree with what you're saying about Mexican people, but I respect your opinion"? I must be missing something here.
What you're missing is that nobody has used the word "filth" but you.
Well isn't that the general implication? If not... then I'll modify to 'second rate human beings'. Is that about right?
And don't bother answering the questions I asked of you. You know... the ones regarding exactly what it was you expected people to 'tolerate' and 'respect'.
Too many posts to reply to specifically but what I want to ask our conservative members here is, where do you draw the line on your conservatism? Do any of you really stand with Trump and his racist, neo-nazi agenda? If so, can you really expect the majority of others who post here to accept that as a reasonable and rational choice? I'm not talking about economics of abortion or other issues that could be interpreted as having grey areas. I'm talking about Donald Trump, a man who is running for POTUS on a racist, hate based platform. If you can say, "Yes, I support that agenda" then say so. Tell us why you hate blacks and Hispanics. Tell us why it's ok in your viewpoint for Trump to encourage his followers to use violence against his opponents. Tell us why its ok for Trump to refer to immigrants as “illegals” and the children of illegal immigrants as “anchor babies". Tell us why you think these things are ok. And after you do that, please stop arguing about why some of us wonder why the hell you want to argue those points here.
I don't care if you are fiscally conservative or you hate granola or believe those of us who are in favor of peace are naive but if you support someone like Trump who promotes hate you are not going to get one inch of slack from me. Sorry, but I don't buy that kind of bullshit. No way.
My husband is a registered Republican, but like many Republicans feels the party left him years ago (hijacked by the religious right). He and his mostly Republican family loathe Donald Trump - they think he's a racist, a buffoon, an embarrassment to the party, etc. None of our Republican friends support Trump. (None of them are Cruz or Rubio fans either, btw.)
My wife was registered Republican when I met her (she's independent now) and is still more conservative than I am (yeah, I know, shocker right, haha!) and she feels the same way. She see Trump as a dangerous, hateful influence on our society and she has absolutely no problem saying what she feels that way. She too believes the Republican Party has been hijacked and give no support to any of their front runners, least of all that hateful bigot, Donald Trump.
This is no different than Trump saying certain people are a dangerous and hateful influence on America.
If people threw tomatoes (remember the shoe thrown at Bush) at Trump most people on this train would condone it and cheer gallantly. Yet all that he said was "If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them," Trump said. "Just knock the hell — I promise you, I'll pay the legal fees." http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-legal-fees-punch-protester-2016-3
He is protecting himself from harm.
You are latechiming without all the facts, he has invited violence many more times than just that once.
If people threw tomatoes (remember the shoe thrown at Bush) at Trump most people on this train would condone it and cheer gallantly. Yet all that he said was "If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them," Trump said. "Just knock the hell — I promise you, I'll pay the legal fees." http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-legal-fees-punch-protester-2016-3
He is protecting himself from harm.
You are latechiming without all the facts, he has invited violence many more times than just that once.
If people threw tomatoes (remember the shoe thrown at Bush) at Trump most people on this train would condone it and cheer gallantly. Yet all that he said was "If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them," Trump said. "Just knock the hell — I promise you, I'll pay the legal fees." http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-legal-fees-punch-protester-2016-3
He is protecting himself from harm.
You are latechiming without all the facts, he has invited violence many more times than just that once.
Latechiming, catchy
I just posted a fact no? It does not matter if he has done this before apparently. He is winning.
If I were going to a website that has a MAJORITY of members that were Conservatives, then started baiting threads everyday, that I knew were going to create arguments, I would hope to begin to think just maybe I needed to rethink my need for attention.
I've asked the same questions you've asked a couple of times. myyoung, and never really gotten much a fix on it. Odd as it may seem, there are some very conservative people who enjoy the music made by a band that has been outspokenly liberal in their viewpoints. I sometimes wonder if there are very liberal minded folks who still listen to Ted Nugent. Yes, very perplexing.
Is it really perplexing? With all due respect this can be seen as making inferences towards the old "you're with us or you're against us" mentality. Perhaps people find solace in Pearl Jam's art in ways that transcend political views. You can care deeply about people/things despite not seeing eye to eye on things political. There's a lot more to life than that! I know you know this so please don't read this as uppity or preachy but this line of discussion has come up before and it kind of comes across as exclusionary. Beyond the band preaching any type of hatred (which they obviously don't) I don't see why people of all backgrounds, opinions, etc., can't find something from them. I think it is pretty awesome that people enjoy the band despite having differing opinions and coming from different walks of life.
What do you think the band members would say if asked whether they think it's cool to question fandom based purely on political views? Beyond basic human rights stuff, politics are but a small picture of what someone is and I think they know this (but who knows, maybe I'm wrong).
I'm not saying that people who are highly conservative should not be Pearl Jam fans. I never said that. I just find it odd. It's not like the band's liberal/progressive attributes are like their clothes of hair cuts which have changed numerous times during their career. Those progressive elements have been an integral part of they band all along. So yeah, it is perplexing... to me at least. But do I think conservatives should not be allowed to be fans? Of course they can.
C'mon Brian...you know I'm one of these conservative fans. It is not odd at all. I always say...I like left wing music and right wing literature. I may not agree with Pearl Jam on many political issues but I absolutely love their passion. Music should be about love, introspection, idealism and expression of thought...any thought... and it only works when the artist is honest with who he or she is. Pearl Jam does this better then anyone and as a real conservative I will defend their or any progressives artist ability to speak even when it offends. Take Bushleaguer for example...it is the complete opposite from my thoughts on Bush but I actually think it is fantastic both as a "protest" song and as a straight-up art piece when the Bush mask is worn. This shouldn't be "perplexing" to you. Conservatives don't need "safe spaces" or "trigger warnings". We don't see opposing view points as "hate speech" and can actually respect those view points and even enjoy them when they are delivered intelligently. Don't be perplexed man.
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I'm glad you guys enjoy the music. I still think it's a bit strange that you come here to discuss politics. It's your perfect right, of course. But personally, I would not choose a band site that is so very much contrary to my beliefs on which to discuss politics. I might discuss the music or the weather or my cat or dog, but I would not have the slightest inclination to waste my time discussing politics. I don't see what you get out of it.
Just curious- besides A Moving Train, about what percentage of your time here do you guiys post on the various other forums sections- the Porch, Other Music, All Encompassing Trip, etc. Surely you must spend a majority of your posting time on PJ related forum sections since that's what it's about for you, correct?
Personally I post/comment on all the pages but I specifically post in here because it is important to enter this bubble of groupthink and show that alternative thought exists within the fanbase. For many years I ignored the AMT but eventually I got tired of every conservative being labelled as a rascist, dumb, christian, hateful, backwards biggot. If you spend a few minutes reading through these pages you will see it everywhere. This is a page that is all for tolerance except when it comes to conservative thought. What i get out of countering this argument is the hope that when some of you actually start to interact with a conservative you might actually realize that we are not the characiture you make us out too be. When you see we are good people with similar interests...music, love of this band etc maybe, just maybe some will open their minds and backoff on some of the hateful rhetoric.
Back off and tolerate what?
Mexicans are filth? Muslims are filth? People that protest need to be punched in the face? Uneducated people are awesome?
You actually expect people to 'tolerate' such values? You expect people to say, "I disagree with what you're saying about Mexican people, but I respect your opinion"? I must be missing something here.
You can't lump all republicans into the same camp as Trump. He has a very specific set of crazy ass supporters that represent 33% of the GOP. Lots of Republicans, particularly establishment and moderate Republicans despise Trump.
Agreed.
But what's being contested in these Trump threads is Trump, the rhetoric he spews and the supporters lapping it up. Asking for tolerance in such a context begs clarification.
This.
I know not all conservatives are hateful, just like y'all (hopefully) know that all liberals are lazy beggars.
Finally, the truth is confirmed!!!
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,959
Too many posts to reply to specifically but what I want to ask our conservative members here is, where do you draw the line on your conservatism? Do any of you really stand with Trump and his racist, neo-nazi agenda? If so, can you really expect the majority of others who post here to accept that as a reasonable and rational choice? I'm not talking about economics of abortion or other issues that could be interpreted as having grey areas. I'm talking about Donald Trump, a man who is running for POTUS on a racist, hate based platform. If you can say, "Yes, I support that agenda" then say so. Tell us why you hate blacks and Hispanics. Tell us why it's ok in your viewpoint for Trump to encourage his followers to use violence against his opponents. Tell us why its ok for Trump to refer to immigrants as “illegals” and the children of illegal immigrants as “anchor babies". Tell us why you think these things are ok. And after you do that, please stop arguing about why some of us wonder why the hell you want to argue those points here.
I don't care if you are fiscally conservative or you hate granola or believe those of us who are in favor of peace are naive but if you support someone like Trump who promotes hate you are not going to get one inch of slack from me. Sorry, but I don't buy that kind of bullshit. No way.
My husband is a registered Republican, but like many Republicans feels the party left him years ago (hijacked by the religious right). He and his mostly Republican family loathe Donald Trump - they think he's a racist, a buffoon, an embarrassment to the party, etc. None of our Republican friends support Trump. (None of them are Cruz or Rubio fans either, btw.)
My wife was registered Republican when I met her (she's independent now) and is still more conservative than I am (yeah, I know, shocker right, haha!) and she feels the same way. She see Trump as a dangerous, hateful influence on our society and she has absolutely no problem saying what she feels that way. She too believes the Republican Party has been hijacked and give no support to any of their front runners, least of all that hateful bigot, Donald Trump.
This is no different than Trump saying certain people are a dangerous and hateful influence on America.
Comments
What everyone needs to remember is what happened when the Dems put up McGovern in 72 and the GOP with Goldwater in 64. These were both hard core warriors of their respective parties. And they both got smoked in the general.
Mexicans are filth? Muslims are filth? People that protest need to be punched in the face? Uneducated people are awesome?
You actually expect people to 'tolerate' such values? You expect people to say, "I disagree with what you're saying about Mexican people, but I respect your opinion"? I must be missing something here.
But what's being contested in these Trump threads is Trump, the rhetoric he spews and the supporters lapping it up. Asking for tolerance in such a context begs clarification.
I know not all conservatives are hateful, just like y'all (hopefully) know that all liberals are lazy beggars.
Is that how far the rabbit hole goes?
I do know that one pill makes you larger, one pill makes you small. And the one that mother gives you, doesn't do anything at all.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I don't care if you are fiscally conservative or you hate granola or believe those of us who are in favor of peace are naive but if you support someone like Trump who promotes hate you are not going to get one inch of slack from me. Sorry, but I don't buy that kind of bullshit. No way.
I like Reese Peanut Butter Puffs.
I like Donald Trumps humour. "Some, are good people" - that's funny shit.
In the meantime he is the frontrunner and gaining. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have the %50 it is a fact that out of all the people who have voted the majority has gone with Trump.
Just like Hilary is winning. It's as if the blinders are on even thicker for the libs on this train they refuse to acknowledge a guy like Trump is kicking some serious ass.
CBS reporter arrested at cancelled Chicago rally described racism he faced from Trump supporters
http://progressiveissue.com/cbs-reporter-arrested-cancelled-chicago-rally-described-racism-faced-trump-supporters/
Yet all that he said was "If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them," Trump said. "Just knock the hell — I promise you, I'll pay the legal fees."
http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-legal-fees-punch-protester-2016-3
He is protecting himself from harm.
And don't bother answering the questions I asked of you. You know... the ones regarding exactly what it was you expected people to 'tolerate' and 'respect'.
I just posted a fact no?
It does not matter if he has done this before apparently. He is winning.