Paris Attacks

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  • eddieceddiec Posts: 3,954
    edited November 2015

    BS44325 said:

    Yes
    Living in a country that is occupied with a foreign presence walking around with guns will not work.
    We were only in Japan for 6 years after the war, hardly a sustained presence.

  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    mcgruff10 said:

    I think anyone who loves their country puts their own people first. I see nothing wrong with this.
    It is this fractured sort of sentiment that allows war to happen over and over.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 43,062
    eddiec said:




    Living in a country that is occupied with a foreign presence walking around with guns will not work.
    We were only in Japan for 6 years after the war, hardly a sustained presence.

    Can Canada's military sustain such a mission?
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  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    edited November 2015

    This makes no sense- its an unfair question.

    Not that 'gambling' is the operative term for this situation... would you flip a coin to determine the well being of your child versus another, RG? Does your child hold a special place in your heart?

    I'm assuming from this post that your child holds no more value than any other child. This is why I ask. If I am wrong... you should retract your rather arrogant statement where you challenged another for holding such a selfish position.
    Of course it makes sense. Refusing to accept any refugees makes a virtual certainty that some Syrian lives (children?) that would have been saved will be lost, that refusal, on the chance that some strangers might be killed as a result in this country, is a gamble on Syrian lives.
    That is placing less value on Syrian lives than American lives any way you slice it.

    The business of flipping a coin over my child is the unfair question that lacks sense. In an acute scenario where I have to choose my child over another, of course I won't flip the coin. That has nothing to do with flipping the coin to allow refugee children into this country with the infinitesimally small chance that another refugee will harm my son... I will flip that coin all day long.
    Yes, my own son takes precedence, but strangers sons are all of equal value to me, whatever color and origin they happen to have.
    Post edited by rgambs on
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PP193448PP193448 Here Posts: 4,282
    edited November 2015
    PJ_Soul said:

    Exactly. And also, I said homegrown. That specifically means not refugees by definition. So I suppose it could be used as concern if the person in question is refusing to use basic reasoning skills.
    So I guess if you apply those non reasoning skills you would also say that there would never ever be a refugee to make terror in your country. Great completely naive reasoning. So you blindly trust your government vetting process. I live in the US and don't trust the US government to do its job correctly. Example: Maybe explain to me why the IRS can't stop billions of dollars distributed to fraudulent tax claims, with so many identity theft issues where my local county sheriff dept actually carries tax ID theft forms in the police cars. How do I know... Cause my wife and I were victims. Now what kind of fucking IRS idiot would not red flag the fact that we haven't filed an EZ form in the past 12 years and that we have never direct deposited any refund. We had to prove to them that we didn't file a fraudulent claim. We spent more money to our CPA, more lost time filing forms and waiting in IRS office than worth the measly $350 tax return.
    Plus no one is held to blame for incompetence in government here. There is so much waste in the US government. Just keep throwing tax money into programs that are not working properly, increase more government jobs, spend spend spend. Politicians are corrupt. People are paid off by lobbyists for votes Democratic and Republican alike. So I'm supposed to believe that the US government vetting process will be done the way they say it will, even if on paper it looks like overkill. Give me a fucking break.
    Plus I never said that I wouldn't take refugees because of humanitarian issues. Take them all in Canada if you believe so strongly about it.
    Post edited by PP193448 on
    2006 Clev,Pitt; 2008 NY MSGx2; 2010 Columbus; 2012 Missoula; 2013 Phoenix,Vancouver,Seattle; 2014 Cincy; 2016 Lex, Wrigley 1&2; 2018 Wrigley 1&2; 2022 Louisville
  • eddieceddiec Posts: 3,954
    PP193448 said:

    So I guess if you apply those non reasoning skills you would also say that there would never ever be a refugee to make terror in your country. Great completely naive reasoning. So you blindly trust your government vetting process. I live in the US and don't trust the US government to do its job correctly. Example: Maybe explain to me why the IRS can't stop billions of dollars distributed to fraudulent tax claims, with so many identity theft issues where my local county sheriff dept actually carries tax ID theft forms in the police cars. How do I know... Cause my wife and I were victims. Now what kind of fucking IRS idiot would not red flag the fact that we haven't filed an EZ form in the past 12 years and that we have never direct deposited any refund. We had to prove to them that we didn't file a fraudulent claim. We spent more money to our CPA, more lost time filing forms and waiting in IRS office than worth the measly $350 tax return.
    Plus no one is held to blame for incompetence in government here. There is so much waste in the US government. Just keep throwing tax money into programs that are not working properly, increase more government jobs, spend spend spend. Politicians are corrupt. People are paid off by lobbyists for votes Democratic and Republican alike. So I'm supposed to believe that the US government vetting process will be done the way they say it will, even if on paper it looks like overkill. Give me a fucking break.
    Plus I never said that I wouldn't take refugees because of humanitarian issues. Take them all in Canada if you believe so strongly about it.
    But at this moment in time there hasn't been a flaw in the vetting process and 35% of our refugees last year came from Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq. Should we stop taking those refugees as well? Loads of terrorists in those countries last time I checked.

  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 43,062
    post just because . Didnt like where we were on the comment count/
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    edited November 2015
    BS44325 said:

    Yes
    Living in a country that is occupied with a foreign presence walking around with guns will not work.
    We were only in Japan for 6 years after the war, hardly a sustained presence.



    You are aware that the US currently has approximately 23 military bases in Japan right now?
    Post edited by BS44325 on
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    This article should be read in full by anyone who wants a real in depth look at the current crisis.

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-crisis-of-world-order-1448052095

    The author isn't Canadian so maybe it won't offend you to read it.
  • eddieceddiec Posts: 3,954
    edited November 2015
    BS44325 said:



    You are aware that the US currently has approximately 23 military bases in Japan right now?
    And we had one in Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis. So what?
    Are you implying that we have bases there in case Japan wants to attack again?

    Post edited by eddiec on
  • PP193448PP193448 Here Posts: 4,282
    eddiec said:

    But at this moment in time there hasn't been a flaw in the vetting process and 35% of our refugees last year came from Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq. Should we stop taking those refugees as well? Loads of terrorists in those countries last time I checked.

    Great. So far so good over 1 year then. Maybe it takes little longer to plan multi site terrorist attacks. Maybe it's mass hysteria and not one refugee will ever be connected to any terrorist plot. I'm not saying that I think it's not the right thing to do. All I'm saying is that I don't trust the US government to not cut corners and hold people responsible for errors.
    2006 Clev,Pitt; 2008 NY MSGx2; 2010 Columbus; 2012 Missoula; 2013 Phoenix,Vancouver,Seattle; 2014 Cincy; 2016 Lex, Wrigley 1&2; 2018 Wrigley 1&2; 2022 Louisville
  • rgambs said:

    Of course it makes sense. Refusing to accept any refugees makes a virtual certainty that some Syrian lives (children?) that would have been saved will be lost, that refusal, on the chance that some strangers might be killed as a result in this country, is a gamble on Syrian lives.
    That is placing less value on Syrian lives than American lives any way you slice it.

    The business of flipping a coin over my child is the unfair question that lacks sense. In an acute scenario where I have to choose my child over another, of course I won't flip the coin. That has nothing to do with flipping the coin to allow refugee children into this country with the infinitesimally small chance that another refugee will harm my son... I will flip that coin all day long.
    Yes, my own son takes precedence, but strangers sons are all of equal value to me, whatever color and origin they happen to have.
    So you and McScruffy feel the same- instinctually protective of your own versus another: you in more 'acute' scenarios... him in more 'broader' scenarios.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,466

    So you and McScruffy feel the same- instinctually protective of your own versus another: you in more 'acute' scenarios... him in more 'broader' scenarios.
    I shouldn't even have to tell you how ridiculous this argument is.
  • dignin said:


    I shouldn't even have to tell you how ridiculous this argument is.
    You probably don't understand what's being said, Dig.

    In the event you don't... I'm just speaking to the slight hypocrisy in RG's rather pompous post that made Scruffy out to be an asshole.

    Lately... any counter position to the Liberal left free flow is met with scorn and disdain. I'm not necessarily saying I disagree with the sentiments behind what is being expressed from the aforementioned... I'm more saying I disagree with the lack of efforts to understand and acknowledge the varying perspectives.

    Who's right in this discussion? I feel it is the side advocating for meaningful assistance, but I'm not so arrogant to think that any position to the contrary is completely out to lunch (excluding the extreme nonsense that pokes its head out periodically- which Scruffy's wasn't).
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,466
    This is the most detailed account I have read about the attack on the Bataclan.

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/abf1356f6b9743518a302da14fbf44eb/horror-panic-heroism-bataclan-nexus-paris-attacks
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576

    So you and McScruffy feel the same- instinctually protective of your own versus another: you in more 'acute' scenarios... him in more 'broader' scenarios.
    That's a fair assessment, but I think the distinction you made makes all the difference. We are talking about lives hanging in the balance, denying all refugees entry will surely cause death and massive suffering of them, letting them in might cause death and suffering for us.
    The risk to us is a risk that many are willing to take, and many others are not willing to risk American lives but they don't seem to have a problem with the inevitabilcity of suffering among Syrians.
    I think it's fair to point out this is inherently placing less value on foreign lives, especially since most of the people I have seen expressing this sentiment don't seem to have thought it through to it's conclusion.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,870
    rgambs said:

    That's a fair assessment, but I think the distinction you made makes all the difference. We are talking about lives hanging in the balance, denying all refugees entry will surely cause death and massive suffering of them, letting them in might cause death and suffering for us.
    The risk to us is a risk that many are willing to take, and many others are not willing to risk American lives but they don't seem to have a problem with the inevitabilcity of suffering among Syrians.
    I think it's fair to point out this is inherently placing less value on foreign lives, especially since most of the people I have seen expressing this sentiment don't seem to have thought it through to it's conclusion.
    How exactly are Syrian refugees suffering or dying If they are settling in another country that is willing to take them in?
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 43,062
    mcgruff10 said:

    How exactly are Syrian refugees suffering or dying If they are settling in another country that is willing to take them in?
    Lets see..2 million in Turkey , where the pool of people are we are begining the process of vetting for resettlement.

    Est 3 million more on the move mostly to Europe. Another est 7 million more internally displaced within Syria.

    So considering those in Turkey where they have been under armed guard for quite some time for settlement seems dangerous?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,317
    edited November 2015
    PP193448 said:

    So I guess if you apply those non reasoning skills you would also say that there would never ever be a refugee to make terror in your country. Great completely naive reasoning. So you blindly trust your government vetting process. I live in the US and don't trust the US government to do its job correctly. Example: Maybe explain to me why the IRS can't stop billions of dollars distributed to fraudulent tax claims, with so many identity theft issues where my local county sheriff dept actually carries tax ID theft forms in the police cars. How do I know... Cause my wife and I were victims. Now what kind of fucking IRS idiot would not red flag the fact that we haven't filed an EZ form in the past 12 years and that we have never direct deposited any refund. We had to prove to them that we didn't file a fraudulent claim. We spent more money to our CPA, more lost time filing forms and waiting in IRS office than worth the measly $350 tax return.
    Plus no one is held to blame for incompetence in government here. There is so much waste in the US government. Just keep throwing tax money into programs that are not working properly, increase more government jobs, spend spend spend. Politicians are corrupt. People are paid off by lobbyists for votes Democratic and Republican alike. So I'm supposed to believe that the US government vetting process will be done the way they say it will, even if on paper it looks like overkill. Give me a fucking break.
    Plus I never said that I wouldn't take refugees because of humanitarian issues. Take them all in Canada if you believe so strongly about it.
    Nope, never said any of that and you guess wrong (and i have to assume you aren't paying any attention). As rgambs has been discussing, I don't put Canadian lies over the loves of non-Canadians. I have also already said that IF bringing in refugees somehow results in any of them being involved in a terror attack, I would have absolutely no regrets, because I know that if t hadn't happened that way, it would have been done some other way. Blocking refugees will prevent nothing. It will only increase suffering.

    Of course, I have no direct hand in refugees coming to Canada, so don't know why you would suggest that I take them all in, but I completely support and champion the 25,000 that are coming before the new year (although I think they'll get backed up and will still be working on it come Jan 1st, despite all efforts), and I believe Canada will welcome more after that.

    Oh, and sorry, there is no way getting around this being a humanitarian issue, no matter how you try to make yourself feel better about rejecting people in need.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,870
    mickeyrat said:

    Lets see..2 million in Turkey , where the pool of people are we are begining the process of vetting for resettlement.

    Est 3 million more on the move mostly to Europe. Another est 7 million more internally displaced within Syria.

    So considering those in Turkey where they have been under armed guard for quite some time for settlement seems dangerous?
    Why exactly are they under armed guard? And again, where s the death and suffering in all these countries you speak of?
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,317
    edited November 2015
    mickeyrat said:

    Lets see..2 million in Turkey , where the pool of people are we are begining the process of vetting for resettlement.

    Est 3 million more on the move mostly to Europe. Another est 7 million more internally displaced within Syria.

    So considering those in Turkey where they have been under armed guard for quite some time for settlement seems dangerous?
    It's not just dangerous. There are food shortages. Children are becoming malnourished, and now Turkey has been forced to withdraw free medical services, while the refugees have no money at all and zero opportunity to work, so people are now literally dying because of simple lack of medical care. Meanwhile, more refugees arrive every day, with no space for them, now no medical care, not even for children who have been trekking on foot for god knows how long... plus it is now winter, and they are starting to freeze.
    Oh yeah, no biggie. No need to get them the fuck ot of there NOW to relieve their fear, stress, and suffering. They're just Syrians after all.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PP193448PP193448 Here Posts: 4,282
    Good luck in here Mcgruff... To many people riding around on their self righteous high horses acting like no one with any opinion other than theirs give a rats ass about humanitarianism. No one knows anything at all about what each other donates, votes, or even does for a living. But yet comment like you are a better person. Ridiculous. Later.
    2006 Clev,Pitt; 2008 NY MSGx2; 2010 Columbus; 2012 Missoula; 2013 Phoenix,Vancouver,Seattle; 2014 Cincy; 2016 Lex, Wrigley 1&2; 2018 Wrigley 1&2; 2022 Louisville
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,072
    edited November 2015
    PP193448 said:

    Good luck in here Mcgruff... To many people riding around on their self righteous high horses acting like no one with any opinion other than theirs give a rats ass about humanitarianism. No one knows anything at all about what each other donates, votes, or even does for a living. But yet comment like you are a better person. Ridiculous. Later.

    Really? I would say the vast majority of those who post here have concern for others but show or express it in different ways. Just as one example, Mr. McGruff and I have had differing opinions on issues here on AMT but we do show respect for each others opinions.

    I don't see the usefulness is harshly bashing a group of people with one broad stroke of the brush.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni











  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,317
    FWIW, I don't always respect the opinions of others - that depends on the opinion in question. But i ALWAYS respect others' right to their opinion, and their right to express it any way they see fit. That includes opinions about opinions about opinions about opinions.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,072
    PJ_Soul said:

    FWIW, I don't always respect the opinions of others - that depends on the opinion in question. But i ALWAYS respect others' right to their opinion, and their right to express it any way they see fit. That includes opinions about opinions about opinions about opinions.

    Yes, that's even closer to what I was trying to get to. Thank you for keeping me on my toes, YET AGAIN! PJ_Soul. :plus_one::lol:
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni











  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,870
    edited November 2015
    PJ_Soul said:

    It's not just dangerous. There are food shortages. Children are becoming malnourished, and now Turkey has been forced to withdraw free medical services, while the refugees have no money at all and zero opportunity to work, so people are now literally dying because of simple lack of medical care. Meanwhile, more refugees arrive every day, with no space for them, now no medical care, not even for children who have been trekking on foot for god knows how long... plus it is now winter, and they are starting to freeze.
    Oh yeah, no biggie. No need to get them the fuck ot of there NOW to relieve their fear, stress, and suffering. They're just Syrians after all.
    Hey Rachel Maddows, I want you to read an article my high school buddy sent to me. I am not a veteran but this guy was a navy seal for around ten years. He was in afghanistan, iraq and every other shit hole on this planet and he says the author is spot on. it's definitely a good read and gives a point of view that many of us have not experienced.
    http://www.unprecedentedmediocrity.com/what-gwot-veterans-really-think-about-middle-eastern-refugees/
    Post edited by mcgruff10 on
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,466
    edited November 2015

    You probably don't understand what's being said, Dig.

    In the event you don't... I'm just speaking to the slight hypocrisy in RG's rather pompous post that made Scruffy out to be an asshole.

    Lately... any counter position to the Liberal left free flow is met with scorn and disdain. I'm not necessarily saying I disagree with the sentiments behind what is being expressed from the aforementioned... I'm more saying I disagree with the lack of efforts to understand and acknowledge the varying perspectives.

    Who's right in this discussion? I feel it is the side advocating for meaningful assistance, but I'm not so arrogant to think that any position to the contrary is completely out to lunch (excluding the extreme nonsense that pokes its head out periodically- which Scruffy's wasn't).
    Maybe I missed the gist of what was being said. If I did, I apologize.

    I don't see how this is a Liberal vs. Conservative issue. I know a lot of conservatives (religious) who see this as a humanitarian issue and they want to help. Most of the organizations sponsoring refugees in my area are religious ones.

    I see people getting pissed at the misinformation happening around here and everywhere. I am always willing to discuss in a polite way with someone who has an informed opinion. It's frustrating discussing an issue with someone when they are not informed.

    I understand that is a very emotional issue. But I still find it hard to believe that someone, given all the facts, can still be rationally afraid of these refugees. I can see where this irrational fear comes from, the media and politicians with an agenda. I'm just disappointed that so many fall for it. It reminds of just after 9/11. How that shock and fear after the attacks was used to make bad decisions.
    Post edited by dignin on
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 28,870
    edited November 2015
    PP193448 said:

    Good luck in here Mcgruff... To many people riding around on their self righteous high horses acting like no one with any opinion other than theirs give a rats ass about humanitarianism. No one knows anything at all about what each other donates, votes, or even does for a living. But yet comment like you are a better person. Ridiculous. Later.

    thanks bud. This thread reminds me of the "america's gun violence" thread. there's definitely some really cool people that I'd love to sit down with and actually discuss an issue in an intellectual way (brian, del, bad brains!, PP) and there's other's that are simply not worth replying to. They are the The kind that you present evidence too but they ignore it or it's their way or the high way or you are an obvious racist with no compassion. Actually my favorite is when people counter a question with a question.
    Post edited by mcgruff10 on
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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