America's Gun Violence

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  • dudemandudeman Posts: 3,140
    rgambs said:

    By contributing to organizations that fight ferociously to protect the laws that create the gun pipelines that supply urban crime zones, and by supporting a culture that allows it.
    I guess I didn't realize that gun laws created pipelines that supply urban crime zones. I thought it was illegal transfers, thefts and murderers getting their guns from friends and family members that supplied urban crime zones.

    So, I guess, gun laws are bad?

    You certainly have a dizzying intellect.

    If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    dudeman said:

    I guess I didn't realize that gun laws created pipelines that supply urban crime zones. I thought it was illegal transfers, thefts and murderers getting their guns from friends and family members that supplied urban crime zones.

    So, I guess, gun laws are bad?

    You certainly have a dizzying intellect.

    You have never heard of the Iron Pipeline? It doesn't take a dizzying intellect to keep up.
    Some gun laws are bad. The ones that prohibit databases to catalog and track gun sales for instance, allowing Joe criminal to buy hundreds to smuggle out of state. That's just one example of the industry fighting sensibility.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    eddiec said:

    If you are buying a gun for the purpose of using it on the range to test your aiming skills why not just buy an olympic style high powered air rifle? Why does it have to be some weapon that was made for the purpose of killing multiple people very quickly and efficiently?

    Hope of penile enlargement would be my guess.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • callen said:

    Hope of penile enlargement would be my guess.
    That would explain why the ranges have been packed recently. And here I thought it was because of the weather.
  • dudemandudeman Posts: 3,140
    rgambs said:

    You have never heard of the Iron Pipeline? It doesn't take a dizzying intellect to keep up.
    Some gun laws are bad. The ones that prohibit databases to catalog and track gun sales for instance, allowing Joe criminal to buy hundreds to smuggle out of state. That's just one example of the industry fighting sensibility.
    The way that post reads it that you think Joe Criminal is protected by law. He isn't. Smuggling guns is illegal.

    An interesting case of this is Fast and Furious, where gun dealers were specifically instructed to disobey the law and sell large quantities of weapons to known traffickers. The idea was to track the guns to see if they ended up in Mexico. Well, they did and Americans died. The only way they got through was the order to disregard the law in the first place.
    If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    edited November 2015
    dudeman said:

    The way that post reads it that you think Joe Criminal is protected by law. He isn't. Smuggling guns is illegal.

    An interesting case of this is Fast and Furious, where gun dealers were specifically instructed to disobey the law and sell large quantities of weapons to known traffickers. The idea was to track the guns to see if they ended up in Mexico. Well, they did and Americans died. The only way they got through was the order to disregard the law in the first place.
    And thousands upon thousands of Americans are dying by guns now and Texas gun dealers area making a killing selling guns to those that take them back to Mexico so it is a problem.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    dudeman said:

    The way that post reads it that you think Joe Criminal is protected by law. He isn't. Smuggling guns is illegal.

    An interesting case of this is Fast and Furious, where gun dealers were specifically instructed to disobey the law and sell large quantities of weapons to known traffickers. The idea was to track the guns to see if they ended up in Mexico. Well, they did and Americans died. The only way they got through was the order to disregard the law in the first place.
    Of course it is illegal, that's why I called him Joe criminal and said he was smuggling.
    If only there was a way we could track gun sales and aggregate the data... Joe criminal would be out of business pretty fast and in the big house.

    Fast and furious is relevant how?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    Fast n furious last Bengazi.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 43,483
    dudeman said:

    The way that post reads it that you think Joe Criminal is protected by law. He isn't. Smuggling guns is illegal.

    An interesting case of this is Fast and Furious, where gun dealers were specifically instructed to disobey the law and sell large quantities of weapons to known traffickers. The idea was to track the guns to see if they ended up in Mexico. Well, they did and Americans died. The only way they got through was the order to disregard the law in the first place.
    Sure he is. Joe criminal can conduct dark sales all day long. Legally.

    Joe criminal is only legal on paper.

    If that isnt shielding please enlighten me.
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  • Question?

    A "street gun" goes for far less than a gun over the counter so how are people making profits off these?

    I can buy a 9mm off the streets way cheaper than in a store, way cheaper.

    So how do gun dealers make money off these type of sales?

    Just curious.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576

    Question?

    A "street gun" goes for far less than a gun over the counter so how are people making profits off these?

    I can buy a 9mm off the streets way cheaper than in a store, way cheaper.

    So how do gun dealers make money off these type of sales?

    Just curious.

    Where do you live? Guns are much cheaper in Gun permissive states than they are in restrictive states, so there is profit to be made.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,007
    rgambs said:

    Where do you live? Guns are much cheaper in Gun permissive states than they are in restrictive states, so there is profit to be made.
    no they are not, this is completely wrong. The same ar-15 can be found pretty much at the same price across the nation. you can find them cheaper at cabela's or bass pro because they are a huge chain as compared to a mom and pop store. it's not like restrictive states add an extra tax on the sale of the gun like they do on cigarette purchases.
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    mcgruff10 said:

    no they are not, this is completely wrong. The same ar-15 can be found pretty much at the same price across the nation. you can find them cheaper at cabela's or bass pro because they are a huge chain as compared to a mom and pop store. it's not like restrictive states add an extra tax on the sale of the gun like they do on cigarette purchases.
    I'm talking about the black market price.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambs said:

    I'm talking about the black market price.
    So a 9mm in the store costs $400 for a cheaper model. Let's say a Taurus.
    I can go down the street and purchase that gun for 100-250.
    So who is making the profit if I initially paid for 400 and now have to sell for half that?

    If the gun was stolen then it's all cash money but if sold by a gun dealer I'm not seeing that.

    Please explain further.
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388

    So a 9mm in the store costs $400 for a cheaper model. Let's say a Taurus.
    I can go down the street and purchase that gun for 100-250.
    So who is making the profit if I initially paid for 400 and now have to sell for half that?

    If the gun was stolen then it's all cash money but if sold by a gun dealer I'm not seeing that.

    Please explain further.
    Used versus new.

    Initial point was legal gun purchases bring guns to criminal element.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 43,483

    So a 9mm in the store costs $400 for a cheaper model. Let's say a Taurus.
    I can go down the street and purchase that gun for 100-250.
    So who is making the profit if I initially paid for 400 and now have to sell for half that?

    If the gun was stolen then it's all cash money but if sold by a gun dealer I'm not seeing that.

    Please explain further.
    Might be that gun has a body on it or other ballistic traceable crime. YOU get found with well after and whos on the hook now?

    Might be considered an acceptable loss assuming also its already earned the initial cost back and then some.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyrat said:

    Might be that gun has a body on it or other ballistic traceable crime. YOU get found with well after and whos on the hook now?

    Might be considered an acceptable loss assuming also its already earned the initial cost back and then some.
    I get that^.

    What I don't is how a gun dealer who sells mass amounts of guns makes a profit? He's selling "illegal" guns or new guns or what?

    If it's a used hand gun and he is a licensed firearms dealer he is supposed to report what he is selling and the person whom sold it to him has a paper trail.

    But if I'm selling my gun I'm getting what it's worth, if I'm buying illegal guns I'm not paying anywhere near full price.

    So again where and whom are getting profits?
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 43,483

    I get that^.

    What I don't is how a gun dealer who sells mass amounts of guns makes a profit? He's selling "illegal" guns or new guns or what?

    If it's a used hand gun and he is a licensed firearms dealer he is supposed to report what he is selling and the person whom sold it to him has a paper trail.

    But if I'm selling my gun I'm getting what it's worth, if I'm buying illegal guns I'm not paying anywhere near full price.

    So again where and whom are getting profits?
    Dealer have paperwork.


    How I believe it works is, someone of a mind to act as middleman or "private dealer" would make legal purchases from licensed dealers, proper checks and all that. They would then sell it to a contact for more than purchase price with no records needed of the sale. It gets filtered down through many hands after use etc


    Or thise who cant otherwise buy legally with checks etc , use want ads craigslist etc for private sales.

    Here in Ohio nothing is required by law to engage in a private sale. No checks, no records of sale, nothing. Heres the gun give me the cash.

    Those less than retail price guns out there were either stolen from a "responsible owner" or have been around awhile changing hands repeatedly.

    Black market guns aren't coming direct from licensed sellers to the street.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • ^ so the gun gets sold cheaper than the initial price through each sale then.

    That's not very good business practices...
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,007

    ^ so the gun gets sold cheaper than the initial price through each sale then.

    That's not very good business practices...

    Lol. Great point!!
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 43,483
    mcgruff10 said:

    Lol. Great point!!
    I would expect money was gained through the use of these guns before being resold.


    So tng how are you so sure you are able to get a 9mm for 200 as you stated above?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 43,483

    ^ so the gun gets sold cheaper than the initial price through each sale then.

    That's not very good business practices...

    Looks like my conjecture was off base.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2014/08/12/inside-the-black-market-for-guns/
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 43,483
    mickeyrat said:

    Looks like my conjecture was off base.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2014/08/12/inside-the-black-market-for-guns/
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576

    So a 9mm in the store costs $400 for a cheaper model. Let's say a Taurus.
    I can go down the street and purchase that gun for 100-250.
    So who is making the profit if I initially paid for 400 and now have to sell for half that?

    If the gun was stolen then it's all cash money but if sold by a gun dealer I'm not seeing that.

    Please explain further.
    I didn't think this sounded correct, but I didn't have time for due diligence. According to the ATF they do sell for higher than retail. What state do you live in?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambs said:

    I didn't think this sounded correct, but I didn't have time for due diligence. According to the ATF they do sell for higher than retail. What state do you live in?
    NY and notice I said a Taurus which is a mid level gun. That article said as little as 1-200 which is what I said for it.

    I'm bowing out of this conversation now.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576

    NY and notice I said a Taurus which is a mid level gun. That article said as little as 1-200 which is what I said for it.

    I'm bowing out of this conversation now.
    1-200 more than retail I believe it said.
    Stick around, there's always more to learn and teach.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,007

    NY and notice I said a Taurus which is a mid level gun. That article said as little as 1-200 which is what I said for it.

    I'm bowing out of this conversation now.
    you are a smart man. I shall bow out too...dirty hit me up to shoot when you eventually find new jersey on a map.
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • rgambs said:

    1-200 more than retail I believe it said.
    Stick around, there's always more to learn and teach.
    Yep. I read that wrong.

    Still only 1-200 for a gun. Come to NY. I'll teach you what can't be read in an article, lol.

    Now I'm off to talk about stickers.

  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,007

    Yep. I read that wrong.

    Still only 1-200 for a gun. Come to NY. I'll teach you what can't be read in an article, lol.

    Now I'm off to talk about stickers.

    i freaking love stickers. the mature hobby!
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,007
    Geez I just realized what myself and every other pj fan should be buying for obvious reasons: the ruger 10/22!!!!! I think I m gonna get one tomorrow!
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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