America's Gun Violence

dudeman said:

dudeman said:

This is worth watching, IMO: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2ef_1441756461

Did anyone watch the video in this link? Thoughts?

I think that video is pretty ridiculous.

jeffbr said:

Last-12-Exit said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

PJ_Soul said:

dankind said:

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ Anyone dumb enough to be waving a realistic-looking BB gun around deserves to be shot by the cops. Of course the cops need to assume that's a real gun. I don't get upset about those stories at all.

What about 12-year-old Tamir Rice?

Hmm. Well, good question - there is certainly an age limit to what I said (nothing is black and white). Though I'm not sure 12 years old is under that limit. I guess that depends on what he knew about the world. Some 12 year olds are a lot more wise than others. A 12 year old could be innocently playing and never even connected a BB gun to a real gun in his own head (maybe he's not too bright). Then again, a 12 year old could also be fully aware that a real-looking BB gun could be used as an intimidation tactic, depending on the kid and what kind of environment he's been in, and would be well aware that cops react to people holding guns. I don't think you need to be very old to know that. Either way, if the cops knew nothing except for the fact that a kid was pointing a gun at them, I wouldn't blame them for shooting him (I do think cops should go for the leg more though... I think they are trained to always use lethal force in those cases, but I'm not convinced that's always the greatest idea).

That said, from what I can tell in that particular case, the cops were irresponsible with their use of firearms and how they responded to the 911 call anyway, failing to assess the situation properly. That kid wasn't waving that gun around or pointing it at anyone when they pulled up and killed him, AND the person who called 911 specifically said that it could be a fake gun and that it seemed to be a kid, which the cops definitely should have taken into account.

I never ever understand why they don't shoot people in the knee or the shoulder. Why kill when you can incapacitate just as easily?? I expect them to be trained well enough to be able to miss vital organs

Then they could simply use a taser. There is no such thing as shoot to wound. I am unaware of any police departments that train police to shoot to wound. If I was I a life or death scenario, I am not shooting to wound. Honestly, I don't want cops to be trained to just wound. If you have to resort to using your gun on someone, then wounding probably isn't an option.

Exactly this. And when you're in a high stress situation, accuracy is compromised due to adrenaline and the speed at which events move. So cops (and anyone taking a firearms self-defense course) are trained to fire at the largest part of the target - center mass. Basically the torso. It is the easiest target on the body, and will stop the attacker, It isn't always a fatal shot, but due to the number of organs in the torso from heart and lungs to the digestive system and everything in between, there is definitely potential for that shot to be fatal. Shooting at a kneecap or shooting the hand holding a weapon is typically the stuff of action movies and TV shows.

That being said, I'd like to see more non-lethal force used before resorting to the firearm. More taser, less gun. But that is not always practical or appropriate. I just hate to see escalation to a fatal shooting before other non-lethal methods are exhausted.

I'm Irish, the only time I see a gun is on TV Thanks for the explanation though!

Last-12-Exit said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

PJ_Soul said:

dankind said:

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ Anyone dumb enough to be waving a realistic-looking BB gun around deserves to be shot by the cops. Of course the cops need to assume that's a real gun. I don't get upset about those stories at all.

What about 12-year-old Tamir Rice?

Hmm. Well, good question - there is certainly an age limit to what I said (nothing is black and white). Though I'm not sure 12 years old is under that limit. I guess that depends on what he knew about the world. Some 12 year olds are a lot more wise than others. A 12 year old could be innocently playing and never even connected a BB gun to a real gun in his own head (maybe he's not too bright). Then again, a 12 year old could also be fully aware that a real-looking BB gun could be used as an intimidation tactic, depending on the kid and what kind of environment he's been in, and would be well aware that cops react to people holding guns. I don't think you need to be very old to know that. Either way, if the cops knew nothing except for the fact that a kid was pointing a gun at them, I wouldn't blame them for shooting him (I do think cops should go for the leg more though... I think they are trained to always use lethal force in those cases, but I'm not convinced that's always the greatest idea).

That said, from what I can tell in that particular case, the cops were irresponsible with their use of firearms and how they responded to the 911 call anyway, failing to assess the situation properly. That kid wasn't waving that gun around or pointing it at anyone when they pulled up and killed him, AND the person who called 911 specifically said that it could be a fake gun and that it seemed to be a kid, which the cops definitely should have taken into account.

I never ever understand why they don't shoot people in the knee or the shoulder. Why kill when you can incapacitate just as easily?? I expect them to be trained well enough to be able to miss vital organs

Then they could simply use a taser. There is no such thing as shoot to wound. I am unaware of any police departments that train police to shoot to wound. If I was I a life or death scenario, I am not shooting to wound. Honestly, I don't want cops to be trained to just wound. If you have to resort to using your gun on someone, then wounding probably isn't an option.

Well you have to be a hell of a lot closer to someone to taser them than you do to shoot them, and tasers don't always incapacitate people (and conversely, sometimes they kill people too). I mean, I would support using rubber bullets most too... the more options the better.
I still think that training to shoot people in the leg instead of vital areas would be a GREAT idea. It's not like they HAVE to shoot people in the leg. It's just a good skill to have. I realize that it's not a guarantee that they won't hit something more vital because of aim, but I would like it if they'd at least try it when appropriate (maybe some do, despite not being trained for it, I don't know). It would be very appropriate to do that in a lot of cases. If you shoot someone in the leg you do prevent them from shooting you at least for long enough to see if they're still going to continue the fight, in which case you aim for the head. But you could still give them an opportunity to end the gun fight and no one dies, which I think would happen in most cases. I'm also thinking of the situations where it's not even a gun fight. So many cops have shot to kill when they're dealing with someone with some other weapon. I remember some guy was killed by cops in the Vancouver because he was swinging a bike chain around. He was seriously mentally ill. I wish they'd stopped him with a bullet in the leg, so he'd have been able to get the medical help he needed. His family was devastated, apparently.

Police in UK requesting more medical checks when issuing gun licences

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34248179

More people are likely to die in shootings unless firearms rules are overhauled, a watchdog has warned.
Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabularies said it was easier to own a gun than become a bus driver because of flaws in medical checks.
The HMIC said the licensing system for England and Wales has fundamental gaps and previous recommendations for reforms had not been acted on.
Only four of 11 forces it inspected were effectively monitoring licences.
As of March last year, 734,336 people were entitled to possess and use shotguns or rifles under the legal system for licensing and certificating firearms in England and Wales. In total, these people owned more than 1.8m guns.
Gun crime is very low in the UK - and murders and manslaughters involving shootings are relatively rare. There were 29 in the year to March 2014 - and three of those involved a legally held firearm.
Stephen Otter, the inspector behind the report, said that while evidence showed that licensed gun holders were very unlikely to be involved in crime, cases where individuals did shoot themselves or others, such as in domestic disputes, often had medical conditions at their root.
"It is highly likely that if these processes are not tightened up satisfactorily, there will be another tragedy, particularly if you look at mental health and growing issues around dementia," he said.
"Too often, forces are not following the Home Office guidance that is in place, sometimes inexcusably compromising public safety. Lessons from past tragedies have not always been learnt and this fails the victims of those events, including their families, unacceptably."
Each police force oversees licensing in its area - but the HMIC said the national guidelines were being inconsistently and inadequately applied and lessons from past tragedies had not always been learnt.
Applicants must disclose any relevant medical condition and give the police permission to speak to their GP.
However, doctors don't have to respond to the police request - and in practice many licences are issued without policing having completed full medical checks or speaking to referees.
The HMIC said that these gaps in the rules meant someone applying to become a bus driver faced more rigorous medical checks than someone who wanted a gun.
It called on all applicants to be subjected to a mandatory medical examination as part of their application - and said doctors should be under a duty to record gun ownership and, critically, alert the police to any relevant deterioration in health.
Policing minister Mike Penning said: "The Government keeps the firearms licensing system under review to safeguard against abuse by criminals and to preserve public safety.
"Discussions are already under way with the police and the medical profession to ensure appropriate arrangements for information sharing between GPs and police."

Gun ownership in England and Wales
151, 413 firearms certificates on issue as of March 2014 - typically meaning sports rifles
582,923 shotgun certificates on issue
1,837,243 shotguns and firearms licensed
72% increase in licensed firearms between 1998 and 2014 (I think 1998 is when new rules came in)
260 certificates revoked as a result of a review and 949 applications refused

mickeyrat said:

Yay guns!!!!!!!

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/road-raging-mercedes-driver-shoots-himself-in-the-leg-while-waving-rifle-and-handgun-at-florida-family/

A man accidentally shot himself in the leg while waving two guns at a woman and her children during a Florida road rage incident.

Mark another responsible gun owner off the list!

mickeyrat said:

Yay guns!!!!!!!

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/road-raging-mercedes-driver-shoots-himself-in-the-leg-while-waving-rifle-and-handgun-at-florida-family/

A man accidentally shot himself in the leg while waving two guns at a woman and her children during a Florida road rage incident.

This happened in Florida? Shocking.

Start building the wall!

Hey, jerks! RR and I can piss on Florida because we're from/live there. Y'all, on the other hand, are just -- wait for it! -- bigots.

JUST A GIRL said:

dankind said:

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ Anyone dumb enough to be waving a realistic-looking BB gun around deserves to be shot by the cops. Of course the cops need to assume that's a real gun. I don't get upset about those stories at all.

What about 12-year-old Tamir Rice?

For once I agree w soul. He deserves it as much as anyone else. When the cops say put down the gun, and you don't, then their saving their own lives by killing you. It's just how it goes.

Someone should have taught the child about guns and why they're not for children.

Deserves it?

I had play guns when I was growing up. I can be thankful I had space to play.

Have you seen the video? The kid was just sitting there- he had no chance. Ask anyone on here... I am the most ardent defender of police there is; but this incident is indefensible.

JUST A GIRL said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

JUST A GIRL said:

dankind said:

PJ_Soul said:

^^^ Anyone dumb enough to be waving a realistic-looking BB gun around deserves to be shot by the cops. Of course the cops need to assume that's a real gun. I don't get upset about those stories at all.

What about 12-year-old Tamir Rice?

For once I agree w soul. He deserves it as much as anyone else. When the cops say put down the gun, and you don't, then their saving their own lives by killing you. It's just how it goes.

Someone should have taught the child about guns and why they're not for children.

Deserves it?

I had play guns when I was growing up. I can be thankful I had space to play.

Have you seen the video? The kid was just sitting there- he had no chance. Ask anyone on here... I am the most ardent defender of police there is; but this incident is indefensible.

Yep. Don't play with guns real or fake. As a child, it's his parents fault for not teaching him better. But no fault of the cops, only doing their job.

a 12 year old deserves to be shot to death?