Why you'll never win an argument on the AMT, even with all the evidence on your side.

rr165892 said:

brianlux said:

oftenreading said:

brianlux said:

Last-12-Exit said:

PJ_Soul said:

Last-12-Exit said:

JimmyV said:

I think if you can find a common ground with the person you are debating, that counts as a victory of sorts. Doesn't seem to happen often, though.

I find that the agree to disagree ending is a win for both sides.

You are an 'agree to disagree expert' Last-12-Exit. I've noticed that most people aren't as capable of doing that! I think it's because they feel like worms will eat their brains if they don't keep arguing their point to death, lol. I can relate to that!

Lol. It's like trying to convince a Christian that there is no god. It's just not going to happen.

A good example for me is the back and forth between brian and me in regards to environmental issues. My stance hasn't changed, but I have learned a lot from reading his posts and articles. Several of our discussions (at least on my end) have ended with let's agree to disagree.

Thank you Last Exit. I think what has made it possible for you and I (and others here) to be OK with our disagreements is that we have shown each other mutual respect and have remained civil even when giving each other a bad time. For me, disagreeing with someone becomes a drag mostly when people are not civil (I admit, to my discredit, I have been guilty of ) or when people engage in bating (which I'm doing much better at ignoring, thank you very much). I've gotten along with you, Last Exit, and a few others here with whom I've had disagreements because we have remained civil. There was one person who used to post here with whom I agreed on 95% of every issue we talked about but the one area we disagreed caused us to be vehemently uncivil with each other such that the animosity between us became as great or greater than with anyone I've ever interacted with here. Dude, if your out there reading this, my sincerest apologies. That sucked big time.

Least we veer yet again too far from dignin's thread topic...

The idea of confirmation bias presents some difficulties. On the one hand, it's easy and somewhat natural to have biases. The one example I can come up with off the top of my head is that in my early twenties I strongly believed that the avante garde/free jazz my room mates insisted on playing was non-musical noise made by people who were simply trying to be weird or different. My room mates explained in detail why this was not so. I argued strongly from a more traditional approach to music. But then one day it clicked for me. Something about what they were playing that I hadn't really listened to fully made it all come together and my biases were crushed. I've been a huge fan of that music ever since. So my thought is that experience can play a large roll in balancing our biases if not outright dispelling them, or simple cementing those biases further. Maybe a wider scope of experience is the key.

"Maybe a wider scope of experiences is the key".

I agree completely. I know someone who genuinely believes that there is no point in traveling outside of North America because everything he likes is right here. He has no interest in other cultures, and thinks that the idea of travel broadening the mind is ridiculous; after all, what could he possibly have to learn from another culture? From what I've seen, he's racist and narrow-minded, but he's perfectly happy with himself. He has no idea what he's missing - literally.

My brother-in-law's email signature for the last few years of his life was a quote from Prussian geographer, naturalist, explorer Alexander von Humboldt:
"The most dangerous worldview
Is the view of those who have not viewed the world."


At first I thought that was a bit pretentious in that not everyone is able to travel and I do believe that for those for whom travel is difficult a decent world view can be gained through a combination of meeting others from other cultures, watching foreign films, reading books books and more books, etc. but that quote does say a lot. When possible (and I'm glad I had a few opportunities to do so), actually visiting others countries and being open to learning about their cultures is the best way to have a wider understanding of the world. And it may be that the sharing of cultures may be our greatest hope for achieving peace.

Bri,that's also a great way to regain perspective and be thankful for how we live,and what we have.

benjs said:

rr165892 said:

brianlux said:

oftenreading said:

brianlux said:

Last-12-Exit said:

PJ_Soul said:

Last-12-Exit said:

JimmyV said:

I think if you can find a common ground with the person you are debating, that counts as a victory of sorts. Doesn't seem to happen often, though.

I find that the agree to disagree ending is a win for both sides.

You are an 'agree to disagree expert' Last-12-Exit. I've noticed that most people aren't as capable of doing that! I think it's because they feel like worms will eat their brains if they don't keep arguing their point to death, lol. I can relate to that!

Lol. It's like trying to convince a Christian that there is no god. It's just not going to happen.

A good example for me is the back and forth between brian and me in regards to environmental issues. My stance hasn't changed, but I have learned a lot from reading his posts and articles. Several of our discussions (at least on my end) have ended with let's agree to disagree.

Thank you Last Exit. I think what has made it possible for you and I (and others here) to be OK with our disagreements is that we have shown each other mutual respect and have remained civil even when giving each other a bad time. For me, disagreeing with someone becomes a drag mostly when people are not civil (I admit, to my discredit, I have been guilty of ) or when people engage in bating (which I'm doing much better at ignoring, thank you very much). I've gotten along with you, Last Exit, and a few others here with whom I've had disagreements because we have remained civil. There was one person who used to post here with whom I agreed on 95% of every issue we talked about but the one area we disagreed caused us to be vehemently uncivil with each other such that the animosity between us became as great or greater than with anyone I've ever interacted with here. Dude, if your out there reading this, my sincerest apologies. That sucked big time.

Least we veer yet again too far from dignin's thread topic...

The idea of confirmation bias presents some difficulties. On the one hand, it's easy and somewhat natural to have biases. The one example I can come up with off the top of my head is that in my early twenties I strongly believed that the avante garde/free jazz my room mates insisted on playing was non-musical noise made by people who were simply trying to be weird or different. My room mates explained in detail why this was not so. I argued strongly from a more traditional approach to music. But then one day it clicked for me. Something about what they were playing that I hadn't really listened to fully made it all come together and my biases were crushed. I've been a huge fan of that music ever since. So my thought is that experience can play a large roll in balancing our biases if not outright dispelling them, or simple cementing those biases further. Maybe a wider scope of experience is the key.

"Maybe a wider scope of experiences is the key".

I agree completely. I know someone who genuinely believes that there is no point in traveling outside of North America because everything he likes is right here. He has no interest in other cultures, and thinks that the idea of travel broadening the mind is ridiculous; after all, what could he possibly have to learn from another culture? From what I've seen, he's racist and narrow-minded, but he's perfectly happy with himself. He has no idea what he's missing - literally.

My brother-in-law's email signature for the last few years of his life was a quote from Prussian geographer, naturalist, explorer Alexander von Humboldt:
"The most dangerous worldview
Is the view of those who have not viewed the world."


At first I thought that was a bit pretentious in that not everyone is able to travel and I do believe that for those for whom travel is difficult a decent world view can be gained through a combination of meeting others from other cultures, watching foreign films, reading books books and more books, etc. but that quote does say a lot. When possible (and I'm glad I had a few opportunities to do so), actually visiting others countries and being open to learning about their cultures is the best way to have a wider understanding of the world. And it may be that the sharing of cultures may be our greatest hope for achieving peace.

Bri,that's also a great way to regain perspective and be thankful for how we live,and what we have.

I went to New Orleans with my mom towards the end of high school, and we did a bike tour of the Lower 9th Ward after Katrina. I was set to start civil engineering in university a few months later, and when we got to the levees, our tour guide mentioned that the state of the area is often mislabelled a natural disaster, when in fact, it was an engineering failure (the levees were rated to handle far greater than the damage of Hurricane Katrina, but the Army Corps poorly engineered them). I cried like a fucking baby.

I went to school knowing these were the situations I wanted to rectify. As it turns out, I'm a mediocre engineer, and ended a brief career six months in (after aiding in designing a few 20-30 storey towers in the Greater Toronto Area. I swear they're not dangerous, they just took me too long). My point is that travelling helped me see what human-oriented needs were out in the world, and doing my best to match those needs to the skills I hoped I could assist with, that others either wouldn't or couldn't handle. This is a direct byproduct of global awareness, and with every skill I've gained in my life, I truly feel there's an applicable human-centric way to use it. The sad reality of the world is that those in need of the most assistance, are typically those with the least access to solutions to their plights. That leaves us fortunate ones to help where ever possible and appropriate.

benjs said:

rr165892 said:

brianlux said:

oftenreading said:

brianlux said:

Last-12-Exit said:

PJ_Soul said:

Last-12-Exit said:

JimmyV said:

I think if you can find a common ground with the person you are debating, that counts as a victory of sorts. Doesn't seem to happen often, though.

I find that the agree to disagree ending is a win for both sides.

You are an 'agree to disagree expert' Last-12-Exit. I've noticed that most people aren't as capable of doing that! I think it's because they feel like worms will eat their brains if they don't keep arguing their point to death, lol. I can relate to that!

Lol. It's like trying to convince a Christian that there is no god. It's just not going to happen.

A good example for me is the back and forth between brian and me in regards to environmental issues. My stance hasn't changed, but I have learned a lot from reading his posts and articles. Several of our discussions (at least on my end) have ended with let's agree to disagree.

Thank you Last Exit. I think what has made it possible for you and I (and others here) to be OK with our disagreements is that we have shown each other mutual respect and have remained civil even when giving each other a bad time. For me, disagreeing with someone becomes a drag mostly when people are not civil (I admit, to my discredit, I have been guilty of ) or when people engage in bating (which I'm doing much better at ignoring, thank you very much). I've gotten along with you, Last Exit, and a few others here with whom I've had disagreements because we have remained civil. There was one person who used to post here with whom I agreed on 95% of every issue we talked about but the one area we disagreed caused us to be vehemently uncivil with each other such that the animosity between us became as great or greater than with anyone I've ever interacted with here. Dude, if your out there reading this, my sincerest apologies. That sucked big time.

Least we veer yet again too far from dignin's thread topic...

The idea of confirmation bias presents some difficulties. On the one hand, it's easy and somewhat natural to have biases. The one example I can come up with off the top of my head is that in my early twenties I strongly believed that the avante garde/free jazz my room mates insisted on playing was non-musical noise made by people who were simply trying to be weird or different. My room mates explained in detail why this was not so. I argued strongly from a more traditional approach to music. But then one day it clicked for me. Something about what they were playing that I hadn't really listened to fully made it all come together and my biases were crushed. I've been a huge fan of that music ever since. So my thought is that experience can play a large roll in balancing our biases if not outright dispelling them, or simple cementing those biases further. Maybe a wider scope of experience is the key.

"Maybe a wider scope of experiences is the key".

I agree completely. I know someone who genuinely believes that there is no point in traveling outside of North America because everything he likes is right here. He has no interest in other cultures, and thinks that the idea of travel broadening the mind is ridiculous; after all, what could he possibly have to learn from another culture? From what I've seen, he's racist and narrow-minded, but he's perfectly happy with himself. He has no idea what he's missing - literally.

My brother-in-law's email signature for the last few years of his life was a quote from Prussian geographer, naturalist, explorer Alexander von Humboldt:
"The most dangerous worldview
Is the view of those who have not viewed the world."


At first I thought that was a bit pretentious in that not everyone is able to travel and I do believe that for those for whom travel is difficult a decent world view can be gained through a combination of meeting others from other cultures, watching foreign films, reading books books and more books, etc. but that quote does say a lot. When possible (and I'm glad I had a few opportunities to do so), actually visiting others countries and being open to learning about their cultures is the best way to have a wider understanding of the world. And it may be that the sharing of cultures may be our greatest hope for achieving peace.

Bri,that's also a great way to regain perspective and be thankful for how we live,and what we have.

I went to New Orleans with my mom towards the end of high school, and we did a bike tour of the Lower 9th Ward after Katrina. I was set to start civil engineering in university a few months later, and when we got to the levees, our tour guide mentioned that the state of the area is often mislabelled a natural disaster, when in fact, it was an engineering failure (the levees were rated to handle far greater than the damage of Hurricane Katrina, but the Army Corps poorly engineered them). I cried like a fucking baby.

I went to school knowing these were the situations I wanted to rectify. As it turns out, I'm a mediocre engineer, and ended a brief career six months in (after aiding in designing a few 20-30 storey towers in the Greater Toronto Area. I swear they're not dangerous, they just took me too long). My point is that travelling helped me see what human-oriented needs were out in the world, and doing my best to match those needs to the skills I hoped I could assist with, that others either wouldn't or couldn't handle. This is a direct byproduct of global awareness, and with every skill I've gained in my life, I truly feel there's an applicable human-centric way to use it. The sad reality of the world is that those in need of the most assistance, are typically those with the least access to solutions to their plights. That leaves us fortunate ones to help where ever possible and appropriate.