On learning, critical thinking, disagreeing and bullshit.
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
When I read this little story I thought right away of AMT and some of the things we’ve discussed here and the way we’ve discussed them. It just seems to fit and maybe some of you will feel the same way. And if nothing else, it has a funny ending. Derrick Jensen is describing here an early meeting with a writing class he is teaching. Or actually, not teaching. He says to the class:
"My style doesn’t work for everyone. And the fact that it doesn’t work for everyone is not a reflection on either me or you- it’s like having two books on a shelf, one of which is red and the other green. They just don’t match. But if you’re willing to ride the wave, and let the wave ride you, if you want to write from the gut, from the soul, then reach deep into the tiger’s fur and hold on tight, because we’re all in for a wild ride."
Nobody moves.
"Since it’s my experience that, as Carl Rogers wrote, the only real learning is self- discovered, self-appropriated learning, I won’t try to teach you anything. It’s my job instead to create an atmosphere where you can teach yourself.
And one of the skill that is oh-so-necessary in these days of decaying mythologies and rampant corporate and governmental doublespeak is the ability to think critically. To question authority, to question everything. My friend Jeannette Armstrong says, ‘We all have cultural, learned behavior systems that have become embedded in our subconscious. These systems act as filters for the way we see the world. They affect our behaviors, our speech patterns and gestures, the words we use, and also the way we gather our thinking. We have to find ways to challenge that continuously. To see things from a different perspective is one of the most difficult things we have to do.’
She continues, “I have to constantly school myself in the deconstruction of what I believe and perceive to be the way things are, to continuously break down in my own mind what I believe, and continuously add to my knowledge and understanding. In other words, never to be satisfied that I’m satisfied. That sounds like I’m dissatisfied, but it doesn’t mean that. It means never to be complacent and think I’ve come to a conclusion about things, to always question my own thinking. I always tell my writing class to start with and hold on to the attitude of saying bullshit to everything. And to be joyful and happy in the process. Because most of the time its fear that creates old behaviors and old conflicts. It’s not necessarily that we believe those things, but we know them and so we continue those patterns and behaviors because they’re familiar.’
So it’s wonderfully acceptable, I say, to disagree with me. It’s wonderfully acceptable to disagree with anyone. Just be agreeable, at all times respectful, in the way you disagree. Be full of thought, and thoughtful in your disagreement."
Silence.
"Any questions so far?"
A young man raises his hand.
I nod.
He says, ‘You said the word bullshit in class.’
"Yes?"
“Will you say that again? I’ve never heard a teacher say that before.”
"Bullshit", I say.
From Derrick Jensen's Walking on Water, pages 20-21.
"My style doesn’t work for everyone. And the fact that it doesn’t work for everyone is not a reflection on either me or you- it’s like having two books on a shelf, one of which is red and the other green. They just don’t match. But if you’re willing to ride the wave, and let the wave ride you, if you want to write from the gut, from the soul, then reach deep into the tiger’s fur and hold on tight, because we’re all in for a wild ride."
Nobody moves.
"Since it’s my experience that, as Carl Rogers wrote, the only real learning is self- discovered, self-appropriated learning, I won’t try to teach you anything. It’s my job instead to create an atmosphere where you can teach yourself.
And one of the skill that is oh-so-necessary in these days of decaying mythologies and rampant corporate and governmental doublespeak is the ability to think critically. To question authority, to question everything. My friend Jeannette Armstrong says, ‘We all have cultural, learned behavior systems that have become embedded in our subconscious. These systems act as filters for the way we see the world. They affect our behaviors, our speech patterns and gestures, the words we use, and also the way we gather our thinking. We have to find ways to challenge that continuously. To see things from a different perspective is one of the most difficult things we have to do.’
She continues, “I have to constantly school myself in the deconstruction of what I believe and perceive to be the way things are, to continuously break down in my own mind what I believe, and continuously add to my knowledge and understanding. In other words, never to be satisfied that I’m satisfied. That sounds like I’m dissatisfied, but it doesn’t mean that. It means never to be complacent and think I’ve come to a conclusion about things, to always question my own thinking. I always tell my writing class to start with and hold on to the attitude of saying bullshit to everything. And to be joyful and happy in the process. Because most of the time its fear that creates old behaviors and old conflicts. It’s not necessarily that we believe those things, but we know them and so we continue those patterns and behaviors because they’re familiar.’
So it’s wonderfully acceptable, I say, to disagree with me. It’s wonderfully acceptable to disagree with anyone. Just be agreeable, at all times respectful, in the way you disagree. Be full of thought, and thoughtful in your disagreement."
Silence.
"Any questions so far?"
A young man raises his hand.
I nod.
He says, ‘You said the word bullshit in class.’
"Yes?"
“Will you say that again? I’ve never heard a teacher say that before.”
"Bullshit", I say.
From Derrick Jensen's Walking on Water, pages 20-21.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"
-Roberto Benigni
0
Comments
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That was interesting thank you, critical thinking feels important. I wonder how the teaching continued..
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The whole thing reminds me of Tool's Lateralus...and particularly dig the part I quoted - not to mention its preceding paragraph.brianlux said:So it’s wonderfully acceptable, I say, to disagree with me. It’s wonderfully acceptable to disagree with anyone. Just be agreeable, at all times respectful, in the way you disagree. Be full of thought, and thoughtful in your disagreement."
Everyone should have at least one teacher like Jensen.
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"Think for yourself, question authority."hedonist said:
The whole thing reminds me of Tool's Lateralus...and particularly dig the part I quoted - not to mention its preceding paragraph.brianlux said:So it’s wonderfully acceptable, I say, to disagree with me. It’s wonderfully acceptable to disagree with anyone. Just be agreeable, at all times respectful, in the way you disagree. Be full of thought, and thoughtful in your disagreement."
Everyone should have at least one teacher like Jensen.
TL0 -
Nailed it! Nice share Brian. I had a High School teacher like that, funny enough with a similar name. Rene Jansen. He just had a way of speaking through the bullshit, and spoke to his students like adults. I had a few good teachers, but he was a stand out and always pops back in my mind from time to time.brianlux said:
She continues, “I have to constantly school myself in the deconstruction of what I believe and perceive to be the way things are, to continuously break down in my own mind what I believe, and continuously add to my knowledge and understanding. In other words, never to be satisfied that I’m satisfied. That sounds like I’m dissatisfied, but it doesn’t mean that. It means never to be complacent and think I’ve come to a conclusion about things, to always question my own thinking. .
"Feel the path of everyday....which road you taking?"
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:-cbadbrains said:
"Think for yourself, question authority."hedonist said:
The whole thing reminds me of Tool's Lateralus...and particularly dig the part I quoted - not to mention its preceding paragraph.brianlux said:So it’s wonderfully acceptable, I say, to disagree with me. It’s wonderfully acceptable to disagree with anyone. Just be agreeable, at all times respectful, in the way you disagree. Be full of thought, and thoughtful in your disagreement."
Everyone should have at least one teacher like Jensen.
TL0 -
There's no mention of how old the students are.
As I was reading this I half-expected the joke to be that they were pre-schoolers. :P
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&0 -
College aged but really, Jensen's thoughts on education (he's mainly a writer- activist, however) would apply on many levels.justam said:There's no mention of how old the students are.
As I was reading this I half-expected the joke to be that they were pre-schoolers. :P
Later in the book he talks about how, because it is geared to create automatons, our educational system "destroys student's souls". He quotes dean of education at Stanford, Elwood P Cubberley (for whom, get this, my high school was named!):
Schools should be factories in which the raw products, children, are shaped and formed into finished products... manufactured like nails, and the specifications for manufacturing will come from government and industry. (p. 37)
Lovely, eh?
This was the part of the quote that I thought might be useful here.hedonist said:
The whole thing reminds me of Tool's Lateralus...and particularly dig the part I quoted - not to mention its preceding paragraph.brianlux said:So it’s wonderfully acceptable, I say, to disagree with me. It’s wonderfully acceptable to disagree with anyone. Just be agreeable, at all times respectful, in the way you disagree. Be full of thought, and thoughtful in your disagreement."
Everyone should have at least one teacher like Jensen.
Jensen's Walking on Water is one of the best books I think I've ever read. Actually, I'm pretty sure I say that every time I read one of his books. :-)
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
I think I'll pick it up the book then. I need a new book to read on the train. From what year was that Cubberley quote from? The 1920's? Geesh."Feel the path of everyday....which road you taking?"
Barrie, ON '98
Toronto, ON '00/'03/'06/'09/'11/'16(x2)
Hamilton, ON '05/'11
Newark, NJ '10
London, ON '13
Buffalo, NY '13
Detroit, MI '14
Ottawa, ON '160 -
Even earlier, walking- 1906. And here we are 108 years later and the vast majority of our schools are still in the worker-bee production business. Yeah, it's a great book. It's one of his shorter books (just a ccouple hundred pages) but if you like it and want to really dig into Jensen maybe check out A Language Older Than Words or the massive and excellent two volume Endgame which starts out with Jensen's twenty premises seen here:Walking the miles said:I think I'll pick it up the book then. I need a new book to read on the train. From what year was that Cubberley quote from? The 1920's? Geesh.
http://www.derrickjensen.org/work/endgame/endgame-premises-english/
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Eye opening. Especially premise # 12, and 20, and 20, and 20, and 20, and 20 again.brianlux said:
Even earlier, walking- 1906. And here we are 108 years later and the vast majority of our schools are still in the worker-bee production business. Yeah, it's a great book. It's one of his shorter books (just a ccouple hundred pages) but if you like it and want to really dig into Jensen maybe check out A Language Older Than Words or the massive and excellent two volume Endgame which starts out with Jensen's twenty premises seen here:Walking the miles said:I think I'll pick it up the book then. I need a new book to read on the train. From what year was that Cubberley quote from? The 1920's? Geesh.
http://www.derrickjensen.org/work/endgame/endgame-premises-english/
Thank you Brian"Feel the path of everyday....which road you taking?"
Barrie, ON '98
Toronto, ON '00/'03/'06/'09/'11/'16(x2)
Hamilton, ON '05/'11
Newark, NJ '10
London, ON '13
Buffalo, NY '13
Detroit, MI '14
Ottawa, ON '160 -
You're very welcome! Yeah, #20 is excellent. I especially like the last two revisions:Walking the miles said:
Eye opening. Especially premise # 12, and 20, and 20, and 20, and 20, and 20 again.brianlux said:
Even earlier, walking- 1906. And here we are 108 years later and the vast majority of our schools are still in the worker-bee production business. Yeah, it's a great book. It's one of his shorter books (just a ccouple hundred pages) but if you like it and want to really dig into Jensen maybe check out A Language Older Than Words or the massive and excellent two volume Endgame which starts out with Jensen's twenty premises seen here:Walking the miles said:I think I'll pick it up the book then. I need a new book to read on the train. From what year was that Cubberley quote from? The 1920's? Geesh.
http://www.derrickjensen.org/work/endgame/endgame-premises-english/
Thank you Brian
Re-modification of Premise Twenty: Social decisions are founded primarily (and often exclusively) on the almost entirely unexamined belief that the decision-makers and those they serve are entitled to magnify their power and/or financial fortunes at the expense of those below.
Re-modification of Premise Twenty: If you dig to the heart of it—if there were any heart left—you would find that social decisions are determined primarily on the basis of how well these decisions serve the ends of controlling or destroying wild nature.
The one I have the hardest time with, that I struggle hugely with- both because I do not want to believe it and because, deep down, I do believe it- is number 6. What I would give to see this one proven false:
Premise Six: Civilization is not redeemable. This culture will not undergo any sort of voluntary transformation to a sane and sustainable way of living. If we do not put a halt to it, civilization will continue to immiserate the vast majority of humans and to degrade the planet until it (civilization, and probably the planet) collapses. The effects of this degradation will continue to harm humans and nonhumans for a very long time.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Civilization as a whole, I would have to agree with the premise unfortunately. We can only affect within the civilization, I think. Wide scale?, I don't know"Feel the path of everyday....which road you taking?"
Barrie, ON '98
Toronto, ON '00/'03/'06/'09/'11/'16(x2)
Hamilton, ON '05/'11
Newark, NJ '10
London, ON '13
Buffalo, NY '13
Detroit, MI '14
Ottawa, ON '160 -
Wide-scale, meaning beyond us? Look what we've done to animals.Walking the miles said:Civilization as a whole, I would have to agree with the premise unfortunately. We can only affect within the civilization, I think. Wide scale?, I don't know
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No. My point would be as individuals we can affect or redeem each other somewhat. But civilization, i think, as a whole is f*cked. I wish it wasn't."Feel the path of everyday....which road you taking?"
Barrie, ON '98
Toronto, ON '00/'03/'06/'09/'11/'16(x2)
Hamilton, ON '05/'11
Newark, NJ '10
London, ON '13
Buffalo, NY '13
Detroit, MI '14
Ottawa, ON '160 -
Baby steps, I guess...individually, then maybe collectively.
Be the change you want to see and all that. Hopefully others do the same.0 -
I always go back to the idea that hope is doing what makes sense. And yes, Hedonist, it starts with each of us. Good reminder."It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0
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Question Everything!badbrains said:
"Think for yourself, question authority."hedonist said:
The whole thing reminds me of Tool's Lateralus...and particularly dig the part I quoted - not to mention its preceding paragraph.brianlux said:So it’s wonderfully acceptable, I say, to disagree with me. It’s wonderfully acceptable to disagree with anyone. Just be agreeable, at all times respectful, in the way you disagree. Be full of thought, and thoughtful in your disagreement."
Everyone should have at least one teacher like Jensen.
TL
Very interesting thread Brian. Awesome!
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Thanks, backseat. The only problem is, when I come across this kind of thing it gets my brain kicked into overdrive and I don't get enough sleep- oh well, sleep is over-rated anyway, LOL :-)backseatLover12 said:
Question Everything!badbrains said:
"Think for yourself, question authority."hedonist said:
The whole thing reminds me of Tool's Lateralus...and particularly dig the part I quoted - not to mention its preceding paragraph.brianlux said:So it’s wonderfully acceptable, I say, to disagree with me. It’s wonderfully acceptable to disagree with anyone. Just be agreeable, at all times respectful, in the way you disagree. Be full of thought, and thoughtful in your disagreement."
Everyone should have at least one teacher like Jensen.
TL
Very interesting thread Brian. Awesome!
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
I call bullshit on this.
:-t [-X
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Yeah, well I call bullshit on that smiley that is supposedly calling time-out. I still say it's an angry rock hound with a geologists hammer! [-(mickeyrat said:I call bullshit on this.
:-t [-X) )
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0
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