Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War
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Yeah, sure...PJ_Soul said:
Nuh uh.Byrnzie said:
Yes he was. He's been saying it for tha last five or six pages of this thread. ISIS, Hamas, Al Queda - all the same. Islamic terrorists seeking to take over the World. This is what he's trying to argue.PJ_Soul said:
He said himself that's not what he's saying. It's just what you think he's saying.dancinacrossthewater said:Many who have watched the conflict over the past few weeks have made the fundamental error of viewing it as a national struggle between Israelis versus Palestinians. In reality, an extremist segment of the Palestinian leadership – Hamas along with other terror groups – has effectively hijacked the Palestinian national movement in the name of Islamism.
The agenda isn’t about securing Palestinian rights or opposing Israeli policies; it’s about securing an Islamic state and opposing Israel’s existence. The vision offered by Hamas, and paid for by Iran, cannot be detached from what has happened in Iraq and Syria, and the ongoing battle between Sunni jihadis and Shia jihadis across the region.
Having lived under the sort of regime Hamas intends to create in Gaza, I know firsthand that Hamas is foremost a threat to the Palestinians themselves. And I know that, while Israelis may be Tehran’s sworn enemy, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns in the radical scheme of Iran’s ayatollahs.0 -
K
That isn't saying that Hamas and ISIS are the same thing. Do you really see that there? It's like we don't even speak the same language.Byrnzie said:
Yeah, sure...PJ_Soul said:
Nuh uh.Byrnzie said:
Yes he was. He's been saying it for tha last five or six pages of this thread. ISIS, Hamas, Al Queda - all the same. Islamic terrorists seeking to take over the World. This is what he's trying to argue.PJ_Soul said:
He said himself that's not what he's saying. It's just what you think he's saying.dancinacrossthewater said:Many who have watched the conflict over the past few weeks have made the fundamental error of viewing it as a national struggle between Israelis versus Palestinians. In reality, an extremist segment of the Palestinian leadership – Hamas along with other terror groups – has effectively hijacked the Palestinian national movement in the name of Islamism.
The agenda isn’t about securing Palestinian rights or opposing Israeli policies; it’s about securing an Islamic state and opposing Israel’s existence. The vision offered by Hamas, and paid for by Iran, cannot be detached from what has happened in Iraq and Syria, and the ongoing battle between Sunni jihadis and Shia jihadis across the region.
Having lived under the sort of regime Hamas intends to create in Gaza, I know firsthand that Hamas is foremost a threat to the Palestinians themselves. And I know that, while Israelis may be Tehran’s sworn enemy, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns in the radical scheme of Iran’s ayatollahs.With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata0 -
It's what we used to refer to in Human Services as a "negative hallucination".PJ_Soul said:K
That isn't saying that Hamas and ISIS are the same thing. Do you really see that there? It's like we don't even speak the same language.Byrnzie said:
Yeah, sure...PJ_Soul said:
Nuh uh.Byrnzie said:
Yes he was. He's been saying it for tha last five or six pages of this thread. ISIS, Hamas, Al Queda - all the same. Islamic terrorists seeking to take over the World. This is what he's trying to argue.PJ_Soul said:
He said himself that's not what he's saying. It's just what you think he's saying.dancinacrossthewater said:Many who have watched the conflict over the past few weeks have made the fundamental error of viewing it as a national struggle between Israelis versus Palestinians. In reality, an extremist segment of the Palestinian leadership – Hamas along with other terror groups – has effectively hijacked the Palestinian national movement in the name of Islamism.
The agenda isn’t about securing Palestinian rights or opposing Israeli policies; it’s about securing an Islamic state and opposing Israel’s existence. The vision offered by Hamas, and paid for by Iran, cannot be detached from what has happened in Iraq and Syria, and the ongoing battle between Sunni jihadis and Shia jihadis across the region.
Having lived under the sort of regime Hamas intends to create in Gaza, I know firsthand that Hamas is foremost a threat to the Palestinians themselves. And I know that, while Israelis may be Tehran’s sworn enemy, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns in the radical scheme of Iran’s ayatollahs.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Or where it belongs, say…. AMT!!!!the tiki bomb said:This thread has become almost 4 weeks of "reasons why war is justified" instead of it's original, rather eloquent statement by Ed. Take the convo somewhere else, AET, maybe.
The mods aren't even following this thread, no worries. It's a free-for-all and rather ugly, if you ask me. But I don't care what anyone thinks of my pro-peace, anti-war posts, no one's gonna shut me up. But they sure will try.the tiki bomb said:I, personally, am anti-war. Whatever reasons are provided to me to be pro-war, I reject.
I hope the mods don't flag me for being "off-topic" or "combative".Post edited by backseatLover12 on0 -
And 'pro-peace' means telling people to 'let it go!', stating that 'We can't control what happens in the Middle East', and claiming that 'Both sides are to blame' when discussing the illegal occupation of an impoverished and largely defenceless people by the fourth largest military in the World, and paid for with your tax dollars.backseatLover12 said:The mods aren't even following this thread, no worries. It's a free-for-all and rather ugly, if you ask me. But I don't care what anyone thinks of my pro-peace, anti-war posts, no one's gonna shut me up. But they sure will try.
The only peace you're interested in is your own peace. A peace where you can pretend that war is something that happens somewhere else, to other people; to people not as 'enlightened' as you - and if only these violent pro-war ignoramuses would 'let go of their egos' then peace and happiness would instantly descend upon the Earth, and the three wise men would journey to Seattle to lay offerings at the feet of EV and sanctify his holiness for the generations to come.
Post edited by Byrnzie on0 -
I, personally, am anti-war. Whatever reasons are provided to me to be pro-war, I reject.
I'm not however anti-fight. You have no idea who I am or what my life experience is, so I would calmly suggest you keep your personal judgements concerning my, or anyone else's "enlightenment" to yourself, B.Post edited by ikiT onBristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 061320180 -
And the attacks continue.___________________________________________
"...I changed by not changing at all..."0 -
Byrnzie, do you think the US airstrikes in Iraq happening now are wrong? That's the most powerful military in the world engaging in a fight halfway around the world. But actually what they're doing is NOT pretending that war happens somewhere else to other people. They're trying to, you know, maybe save a few kids from being cut up, and help a few dozen thousand people trapped in the mountains.Byrnzie said:
And 'pro-peace' means telling people to 'let it go!', stating that 'We can't control what happens in the Middle East', and claiming that 'Both sides are to blame' when discussing the illegal occupation of an impoverished and largely defenceless people by the fourth largest military in the World, and paid for with your tax dollars.backseatLover12 said:The mods aren't even following this thread, no worries. It's a free-for-all and rather ugly, if you ask me. But I don't care what anyone thinks of my pro-peace, anti-war posts, no one's gonna shut me up. But they sure will try.
The only peace you're interested in is your own peace. A peace where you can pretend that war is something that happens somewhere else, to other people; to people not as 'enlightened' as you - and if only these violent pro-war ignoramuses would 'let go of their egos' then peace and happiness would instantly descend upon the Earth, and the three wise men would journey to Seattle to lay offerings at the feet of EV and sanctify his holiness for the generations to come.
But you know, oppressive imperialist settler colonialism and all that stuff, so maybe just let those people die.Post edited by dancinacrossthewater on0 -
Really, what I'm trying to point out is that things are just a bit more complicated than US and Israel = evil colonialist oppressors. Again, I'm not excusing or condoning all of Israel's actions by any stretch. But your worldview is just as myopic and narrowminded as the view of those who yell USA USA and refuse to criticize anything the States or Israel does.0
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I'm sorry to be harsh here, but plain and simple, that's not true. Those who yell "USA, USA" and refuse to criticize anything they do - do so because they refuse to educate themselves on the premises and train of logic required to arrive at a conclusion that a decision is worth yelling "USA, USA" in favour of. Byrnzie has been open to listening to logic, and any time that I've questioned his, he's rebutted clearly and practically with sound logic: that's a far stretch from a delusional chant in unwavering support of a nation.dancinacrossthewater said:Really, what I'm trying to point out is that things are just a bit more complicated than US and Israel = evil colonialist oppressors. Again, I'm not excusing or condoning all of Israel's actions by any stretch. But your worldview is just as myopic and narrowminded as the view of those who yell USA USA and refuse to criticize anything the States or Israel does.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 10 -
Ok, if that's been your experience of him in this thread, I hear that. It's not been mine.0
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I'm interested to hear whether someone like Byrnzie or fuck is in favour of international intervention into the the crisis in Iraq right now.0
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Check out the AMT Iraq thread.dancinacrossthewater said:I'm interested to hear whether someone like Byrnzie or fuck is in favour of international intervention into the the crisis in Iraq right now.
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And why aren't "THEY" helping the Palestinian kids in Gaza? Aren't they human?dancinacrossthewater said:
Byrnzie, do you think the US airstrikes in Iraq happening now are wrong? That's the most powerful military in the world engaging in a fight halfway around the world. But actually what they're doing is NOT pretending that war happens somewhere else to other people. They're trying to, you know, maybe save a few kids from being cut up, and help a few dozen thousand people trapped in the mountains.Byrnzie said:
And 'pro-peace' means telling people to 'let it go!', stating that 'We can't control what happens in the Middle East', and claiming that 'Both sides are to blame' when discussing the illegal occupation of an impoverished and largely defenceless people by the fourth largest military in the World, and paid for with your tax dollars.backseatLover12 said:The mods aren't even following this thread, no worries. It's a free-for-all and rather ugly, if you ask me. But I don't care what anyone thinks of my pro-peace, anti-war posts, no one's gonna shut me up. But they sure will try.
The only peace you're interested in is your own peace. A peace where you can pretend that war is something that happens somewhere else, to other people; to people not as 'enlightened' as you - and if only these violent pro-war ignoramuses would 'let go of their egos' then peace and happiness would instantly descend upon the Earth, and the three wise men would journey to Seattle to lay offerings at the feet of EV and sanctify his holiness for the generations to come.
But you know, oppressive imperialist settler colonialism and all that stuff, so maybe just let those people die.0 -
100% man. Of course they are and of course they should be. Israel has fucked up a lot and a lot of innocent people have been hurt or killed. It's not alright. Let me address this in a longer post in a second.badbrains said:
And why aren't "THEY" helping the Palestinian kids in Gaza? Aren't they human?dancinacrossthewater said:
Byrnzie, do you think the US airstrikes in Iraq happening now are wrong? That's the most powerful military in the world engaging in a fight halfway around the world. But actually what they're doing is NOT pretending that war happens somewhere else to other people. They're trying to, you know, maybe save a few kids from being cut up, and help a few dozen thousand people trapped in the mountains.Byrnzie said:
And 'pro-peace' means telling people to 'let it go!', stating that 'We can't control what happens in the Middle East', and claiming that 'Both sides are to blame' when discussing the illegal occupation of an impoverished and largely defenceless people by the fourth largest military in the World, and paid for with your tax dollars.backseatLover12 said:The mods aren't even following this thread, no worries. It's a free-for-all and rather ugly, if you ask me. But I don't care what anyone thinks of my pro-peace, anti-war posts, no one's gonna shut me up. But they sure will try.
The only peace you're interested in is your own peace. A peace where you can pretend that war is something that happens somewhere else, to other people; to people not as 'enlightened' as you - and if only these violent pro-war ignoramuses would 'let go of their egos' then peace and happiness would instantly descend upon the Earth, and the three wise men would journey to Seattle to lay offerings at the feet of EV and sanctify his holiness for the generations to come.
But you know, oppressive imperialist settler colonialism and all that stuff, so maybe just let those people die.Post edited by dancinacrossthewater on0 -
If I was Obama, here is what I'd be saying to Netanyahu.
"Look dude, I get the history of the Jews - both recent and ancient. When people keep trying to kill you, you get paranoid and unbalanced. You can think of Israel as the ultimate response to trauma - 'we've been fucked over for so long we're gonna make ourselves so strong that nobody can fuck with us, and we're gonna hurt some people along the way so those people feel a little bit of what we felt, even though they weren't the people who hurt us.'
But you have to get over it. You can't hurt other people anymore. Israel is secure as a state - never mind the holocaust, it's not even 1948 anymore, or 1967, or 1973. If Iran ever actually seems like it's getting close to launcing on you, we've got your back. But until then, this shit you're doing must stop. We sever funding to your military, and if it doesn't look like you're a legitimate partner in the peace process (ie move to relinquish land, air sea control of Gaza, etc), we start supporting BDS too."
Now this is far from a perfect US position - there are flaws that both Palestinians and Israelis could point out with it. But I'd sure like to say it to some of my relatives.
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Let me just quickly add that although badbrains and I clearly locate ourselves in different positions on this issue, I've been able to engage in what I feel is constructive dialogue with him. If that could happen with Byrnzie and fuck, it'd be nice.0
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will dodignin said:
Check out the AMT Iraq thread.dancinacrossthewater said:I'm interested to hear whether someone like Byrnzie or fuck is in favour of international intervention into the the crisis in Iraq right now.
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And on that note and because there is a discussion thread in AMT, please feel free to continue the conversation there. Thanks...and don't forget the Posting Guidelines...there's too much snotty bickering and making personal comments AT each other going on...not enough listening.Post edited by Kat onFalling down,...not staying down0
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