America's Gun Violence

mickeyrat · July 2014

tempo_n_groove said:
I'm new to the table here but I have to ask "How many legal guns are used in violent crimes"?

I'd wager ALL guns began as legal , but since the feds have a really high hurdle to track guns to begin with , its really hard to say how many were stolen vs outright sold on the blackmarket after legal purchase.

unsung · July 2014

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

unsung said:
Whatever. Point to a reliable and unbiased study that says crime increased. I won't wait because it doesn't exist.

Meanwhile the FBI statistics show that when DC banned handguns crime increased, and when the Heller decision was handed down crime rates went down.

Somehow I think you're the type of guy that calls a climate rainy because it rained one day out of 365.
Whatever? hahahaha... that's what my teenager says when he's being insolent upon being pointed out as wrong. I guess my post scored a few points!

As to your first point... huh? Take a few moments to provide some context for such utterings.

To your second point... no gun reform has any chance of success within a year, two years, or even five years. The only way to measure any success is through a longitudinal study given the appropriate time to allow for reforms to make the impact intended. I suggest looking at other countries who adopted gun reform measures and the successes they have had after decades of the implementation (Canada and the UK are two off the top of my head).

To your third point... I offer a counter: somehow I think you're the kind of guy that when someone says, the United States has the highest gun ownership rate in the world and the highest per capita rate of firearm-related murders of all developed countries (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/gun-homicides-ownership/table/)... you blame the police for this fact.

Oh wait... you do. I remember you saying, "If the police would just do their job."

And when someone points out that the number of gun deaths typically exceed 32,000 per annum in your country, you blame... hmmm. I'm not even sure who you you'd blame for this whopper. Maybe the 'other guy' (the irresponsible gun owners who right up to the moment their gun killed someone were part of the responsible gun owners).

Whatever, i.e. the internet equivalent of banging ones head off the wall. Perhaps we should consider why we are doing so... what's the common denominator here?

Skipping ahead, I have said that the police can be a deterrent, but only if they are used properly. Apparently they are too busy shooting dogs though. I've also stated, and the courts can back me up here, the police have no obligation to protect anyone. That would mean people are responsible for their own safety. The police chief of Detroit has stated that with people carrying guns that crime has dropped. Detroit. Let that sink in.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140716/METRO01/307160034

Detroit has experienced 37 percent fewer robberies in 2014 than during the same period last year, 22 percent fewer break-ins of businesses and homes, and 30 percent fewer carjackings. Craig attributed the drop to better police work and criminals being reluctant to prey on citizens who may be carrying guns.

In the meantime keep comparing the US to other countries, while you are at it compare those apples to those oranges.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · July 2014

tempo_n_groove said:
I'm new to the table here but I have to ask "How many legal guns are used in violent crimes"?

Legal or illegal... who cares? Your country is the most armed country in the world and, not coincidently, obliterates every other developed country in gun deaths.

If you want fewer gun deaths... start the movement to get the guns from the streets. Among many things, the following types of things would likely yield very positive results for your country if implemented:
- Eliminate 'novelty' guns (those which have no 'practical' purpose- such as hunting- for the typical citizen).
- Develop comprehensive background checks for new owners.
- Develop stringent criteria for handgun ownership.
- Offer attractive 'buy back' incentives to get many existing guns off the streets.
- Restrict ammunition sales to registered gun owners.

Of course, there would be no overnight fix. But, in time and at a minimum, difficult access to weapons and ammunition would make it much more difficult for, say, the estranged husband shooting his ex in a drunken moment of anger (and other 'similar' scenarios where people don't have immediate access to a gun to express their fit of rage).

If you want guns with very little regulation... brace for 30,000+ deaths by gun every year including your two or three national tragedies that have the rest of the world shake our heads somewhat in disbelief.

tempo_n_groove · July 2014

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

unsung said:
Whatever. Point to a reliable and unbiased study that says crime increased. I won't wait because it doesn't exist.

Meanwhile the FBI statistics show that when DC banned handguns crime increased, and when the Heller decision was handed down crime rates went down.

Somehow I think you're the type of guy that calls a climate rainy because it rained one day out of 365.
Whatever? hahahaha... that's what my teenager says when he's being insolent upon being pointed out as wrong. I guess my post scored a few points!

As to your first point... huh? Take a few moments to provide some context for such utterings.

To your second point... no gun reform has any chance of success within a year, two years, or even five years. The only way to measure any success is through a longitudinal study given the appropriate time to allow for reforms to make the impact intended. I suggest looking at other countries who adopted gun reform measures and the successes they have had after decades of the implementation (Canada and the UK are two off the top of my head).

To your third point... I offer a counter: somehow I think you're the kind of guy that when someone says, the United States has the highest gun ownership rate in the world and the highest per capita rate of firearm-related murders of all developed countries (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/gun-homicides-ownership/table/)... you blame the police for this fact.

Oh wait... you do. I remember you saying, "If the police would just do their job."

And when someone points out that the number of gun deaths typically exceed 32,000 per annum in your country, you blame... hmmm. I'm not even sure who you you'd blame for this whopper. Maybe the 'other guy' (the irresponsible gun owners who right up to the moment their gun killed someone were part of the responsible gun owners).

How is it that

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

tempo_n_groove said:
I'm new to the table here but I have to ask "How many legal guns are used in violent crimes"?

Legal or illegal... who cares? Your country is the most armed country in the world and, not coincidently, obliterates every other developed country in gun deaths.

If you want fewer gun deaths... start the movement to get the guns from the streets. Among many things, the following types of things would likely yield very positive results for your country if implemented:
- Eliminate 'novelty' guns (those which have no 'practical' purpose- such as hunting- for the typical citizen).
- Develop comprehensive background checks for new owners.
- Develop stringent criteria for handgun ownership.
- Offer attractive 'buy back' incentives to get many existing guns off the streets.
- Restrict ammunition sales to registered gun owners.

Of course, there would be no overnight fix. But, in time and at a minimum, difficult access to weapons and ammunition would make it much more difficult for, say, the estranged husband shooting his ex in a drunken moment of anger (and other 'similar' scenarios where people don't have immediate access to a gun to express their fit of rage).

If you want guns with very little regulation... brace for 30,000+ deaths by gun every year including your two or three national tragedies that have the rest of the world shake our heads somewhat in disbelief.

I actually agree with some of this.^ I also disagree too but hey...

I do find it hard to believe that we have 270,000,000 guns and only 300,000,000 people though…

Eliminate Novelty guns. No, those are the best kind.
Ammunition restriction? No, then you can't use the novelty guns…
Background checks. Yes. This actually happens if you buy a new gun no matter where you are in the U.S. whether it's a handgun or rifle there is a background check.
Stringent Criteria. Yes. I think you should have to take a class for a pellet gun.
Buy Backs. Yes. This goes on all the time too but to little press in the mainstream. Just local news.

All great points.

I do ask as to why we have illegal guns though? Example: A fully automatic Mac 10 costs roughly $2000 and you have to be registered, pay a fee for a background check, pay a gov't stamp fee. So after everything it's $3000.

You can buy this gun on the streets for $500…

Something doesn't add up.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · July 2014

Tempo...

You quoted much there. Unsung and I have had a few exchanges over the years. I only point this out because I think you asked a question from a post I submitted to Unsung that would require me detailing much history of our exchanges- to which I don't wish to tire you with, nor do I want to take the time to do it.

But you quoted a second post of mine where you agreed and disagreed with portions of it. I have to make a comment with regards to your inquisitiveness regarding the price of a gun on the streets: in general... things that are stolen are sold at a discount rate. The street rate for a stolen gun is cheaper than a gun purchased through legal channels.

Legal guns stolen become illegal guns. And when you asked the question, "How many legal guns are used in violent crimes?" I would respond that nearly 100% of all violent crimes are committed with guns that for at least one point in their existence were legal.

* On edit: I wish to correct myself. 100% of all violent crimes are committed with guns that were legal at some point in their existence.

unsung · July 2014

I'm on my phone now, I'll reply later. In the meantime...

http://m.newsbusters.org/blogs/geoffrey-dickens/2014/07/29/stunner-view-you-want-protect-yourself-ladies-get-gun-your-home?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

tempo_n_groove · July 2014

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Tempo...

You quoted much there. Unsung and I have had a few exchanges over the years. I only point this out because I think you asked a question from a post I submitted to Unsung that would require me detailing much history of our exchanges- to which I don't wish to tire you with, nor do I want to take the time to do it.

But you quoted a second post of mine where you agreed and disagreed with portions of it. I have to make a comment with regards to your inquisitiveness regarding the price of a gun on the streets: in general... things that are stolen are sold at a discount rate. The street rate for a stolen gun is cheaper than a gun purchased through legal channels.

Legal guns stolen become illegal guns. And when you asked the question, "How many legal guns are used in violent crimes?" I would respond that nearly 100% of all violent crimes are committed with guns that for at least one point in their existence were legal.

* On edit: I wish to correct myself. 100% of all violent crimes are committed with guns that were legal at some point in their existence.

" On edit: I wish to correct myself. 100% of all violent crimes are committed with guns that were legal at some point in their existence."

^This is pure spin and very disappointing because I know you are educated but what I do see is a one sided answer. This answer won't sway the undecided nor the enthusiasts.

"things that are stolen are sold at a discount rate. The street rate for a stolen gun is cheaper than a gun purchased through legal channels."

^My valid point that in all fairness should be investigated.

This is a very tough topic and I will try to be brief with answers and am curious about other input.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · July 2014

At some point in time, all guns are legal.

Point being: whether at manufacturing or in the house of a legal owner prior to falling into the wrong hands... guns that eventually kill people started out with- now this is debatable- good intentions.

What are 'good intentions' with regards to guns? Guns are made for killing things.

Halifax2TheMax · July 2014

unsung said:
Whatever. Point to a reliable and unbiased study that says crime increased. I won't wait because it doesn't exist.

Meanwhile the FBI statistics show that when DC banned handguns crime increased, and when the Heller decision was handed down crime rates went down.

Somehow I think you're the type of guy that calls a climate rainy because it rained one day out of 365.

Somehow I think you’re blinded by your gun zealotry and desire to see every problem solved by a “legally responsible gun owner.” But that’s just me.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/07/29/more-guns-less-crime-not-exactly/

Click on the embedded links within the article to get the background info on the point(s) being made.

From Wikipedia:
District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), was a landmark case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held in a 5-4 decision that the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution applies to federal enclaves and protects an individual's right to possess a firearm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. The decision did not address the question of whether the Second Amendment extends beyond federal enclaves to the states,[1] which was addressed later by McDonald v. Chicago (2010). It was the first Supreme Court case to decide whether the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms for self-defense.[2]
On June 26, 2008, the Supreme Court affirmed the Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit in Heller v. District of Columbia.[3][4] The Supreme Court struck down provisions of the Firearms Control Regulations Act of 1975 as unconstitutional, determined that handguns are "arms" for the purposes of the Second Amendment, found that the Regulations Act was an unconstitutional ban, and struck down the portion of the Regulations Act that requires all firearms including rifles and shotguns be kept "unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock." "Prior to this decision the Firearms Control Regulation Act of 1975 also restricted residents from owning handguns except for those registered prior to 1975."[5]

I also think you’re the kind of guy who takes a slight decrease in “crime” and claims its all due to the handgun ban being lifted or concealed carry being allowed. How do you explain the upticks in certain years and in certain categories after 2008 when Heller was handed down in the below table?

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Washington-District-of-Columbia.html

Peace.

Halifax2TheMax · July 2014

unsung said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

unsung said:
Whatever. Point to a reliable and unbiased study that says crime increased. I won't wait because it doesn't exist.

Meanwhile the FBI statistics show that when DC banned handguns crime increased, and when the Heller decision was handed down crime rates went down.

Somehow I think you're the type of guy that calls a climate rainy because it rained one day out of 365.
Whatever? hahahaha... that's what my teenager says when he's being insolent upon being pointed out as wrong. I guess my post scored a few points!

As to your first point... huh? Take a few moments to provide some context for such utterings.

To your second point... no gun reform has any chance of success within a year, two years, or even five years. The only way to measure any success is through a longitudinal study given the appropriate time to allow for reforms to make the impact intended. I suggest looking at other countries who adopted gun reform measures and the successes they have had after decades of the implementation (Canada and the UK are two off the top of my head).

To your third point... I offer a counter: somehow I think you're the kind of guy that when someone says, the United States has the highest gun ownership rate in the world and the highest per capita rate of firearm-related murders of all developed countries (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/gun-homicides-ownership/table/)... you blame the police for this fact.

Oh wait... you do. I remember you saying, "If the police would just do their job."

And when someone points out that the number of gun deaths typically exceed 32,000 per annum in your country, you blame... hmmm. I'm not even sure who you you'd blame for this whopper. Maybe the 'other guy' (the irresponsible gun owners who right up to the moment their gun killed someone were part of the responsible gun owners).

Whatever, i.e. the internet equivalent of banging ones head off the wall. Perhaps we should consider why we are doing so... what's the common denominator here?

Skipping ahead, I have said that the police can be a deterrent, but only if they are used properly. Apparently they are too busy shooting dogs though. I've also stated, and the courts can back me up here, the police have no obligation to protect anyone. That would mean people are responsible for their own safety. The police chief of Detroit has stated that with people carrying guns that crime has dropped. Detroit. Let that sink in.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140716/METRO01/307160034

Detroit has experienced 37 percent fewer robberies in 2014 than during the same period last year, 22 percent fewer break-ins of businesses and homes, and 30 percent fewer carjackings. Craig attributed the drop to better police work and criminals being reluctant to prey on citizens who may be carrying guns.

In the meantime keep comparing the US to other countries, while you are at it compare those apples to those oranges.

Or could it be there are less people to rob? Hasn't Detroit's population dropped precipitously in the last few years? I'd like to see the crime rate per 100,000 inhabitants number before I accept whether crime is down in Detroit and chalking it up to "responsible gun owners."

Peace.

Jason P · July 2014

It's not a good sign that everyone has to carry a gun in order lower the crime rate. Or that you have to display a gun on your hip just to fill your car with gasoline because you live in a place nicknamed "Carjack City". Carrying a gun doesn't lower the crime rate. Renting a U-Haul and getting the fuck out of Dodge lowers the crime rate.

Stickman12 · August 2014

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The Second Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms. The concept of a right to keep and bear arms existed within English common law long before the enactment of the Bill of Rights. Eighteenth century English jurist and judge Sir William Blackstone described this right as -
a public allowance under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression

In today's society, guns are demonized by media. The only coverage that makes the news is a bad guy who shoots innocent people. Rarely is the coverage of someone who was able to avoid being a victim because of a gun. A gun is a tool that can aid in self-preservation and resist violence and oppression. There are several laws already that deal with guns, the problem is that the are not being enforced. Police show up after a crime is committed, they rarely have the information necessary to stop a crime. Remember that guns are objects. Guns dont go to prison, guns dont take your money, guns dont break into your cars. Its the people who have these guns who need to be the focus of a real solution. If you were able to take all the guns out of the country, violent crime will still exist, but with a different tool. Guns have been a tool that has aided in a lot of good in this worlds history as well as a lot of bad and evil in the worlds history. The one common factor in both situations is that the people making the decisions with a gun determine the outcome. I agree that it is a sad state of affairs that more and more people have to conceal carry to "feel" safe or that someone needs to have a gun to protect their home and property from crime but the sad fact is that this is the world we live in today. If every person who owned a gun and obeyed the law were to surrender their gun, there is no doubt that violent crime would increase. Why??? Because those who disregard the law are the ones committing the crime. If there is no resistence, there will be no end. Dont attack peoples views, dont attack peoples opinions, attack those who remain silent while violating the safety and security of those who abide by the law and contribute to a better society.

rr165892 · August 2014

ejleonjr said:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The Second Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms. The concept of a right to keep and bear arms existed within English common law long before the enactment of the Bill of Rights. Eighteenth century English jurist and judge Sir William Blackstone described this right as -
a public allowance under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression

In today's society, guns are demonized by media. The only coverage that makes the news is a bad guy who shoots innocent people. Rarely is the coverage of someone who was able to avoid being a victim because of a gun. A gun is a tool that can aid in self-preservation and resist violence and oppression. There are several laws already that deal with guns, the problem is that the are not being enforced. Police show up after a crime is committed, they rarely have the information necessary to stop a crime. Remember that guns are objects. Guns dont go to prison, guns dont take your money, guns dont break into your cars. Its the people who have these guns who need to be the focus of a real solution. If you were able to take all the guns out of the country, violent crime will still exist, but with a different tool. Guns have been a tool that has aided in a lot of good in this worlds history as well as a lot of bad and evil in the worlds history. The one common factor in both situations is that the people making the decisions with a gun determine the outcome. I agree that it is a sad state of affairs that more and more people have to conceal carry to "feel" safe or that someone needs to have a gun to protect their home and property from crime but the sad fact is that this is the world we live in today. If every person who owned a gun and obeyed the law were to surrender their gun, there is no doubt that violent crime would increase. Why??? Because those who disregard the law are the ones committing the crime. If there is no resistence, there will be no end. Dont attack peoples views, dont attack peoples opinions, attack those who remain silent while violating the safety and security of those who abide by the law and contribute to a better society.

Well that was well done.I agree

Gern Blansten · August 2014

"WELL REGULATED" is the key wording....

mickeyrat · August 2014

Gern Blansten said:
"WELL REGULATED" is the key wording....

" a public right UNDER DUE RESTRICTIONS"

unsung · August 2014

Gern Blansten said:
"WELL REGULATED" is the key wording....

Here we go.......

Halifax2TheMax · August 2014

A rational argument:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/31/opinion/nicholas-kristof-our-blind-spot-about-guns.html?_r=0

Peace.

brianlux · August 2014

Halifax2TheMax said:
A rational argument:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/31/opinion/nicholas-kristof-our-blind-spot-about-guns.html?_r=0

Peace.

Now wait a dog gone minute. That's a sensible and rational argument. We'll have none of that here! Hahaha! No seriously, good article. Thanks!

unsung · August 2014

Too funny!

Halifax2TheMax · August 2014

unsung said:
Too funny!

Hilarious.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check

Peace.

America's Gun Violence

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