Jewish Settler Attacks = Terrorism

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Yosi has been very dispassionate in his discourse and I've been very impressed with his patience and ability to articulate his position. I've been on the other end of Byrnzie's 'mocking' tone in another thread and... well... it does tend to piss a guy off. To Byrnzie's credit in this discussion... he's relentless and very well read on this subject- he's more than entitled to his opinion.

He's English. Sarcasm, dry wit, and a touch of arrogance is their thing. ) And I love 'em for it.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I'd be curious to know what percentage of the Palestinian people would prefer to simply drop the issue and forfeit the land? As opposed to fighting what (at this moment) seems like an unwinnable situation, what percentage of people would prefer to concede the area to avoid the violence? Is there an unmistakable level of resolve within every Palestinian... or is it only the extremists that resist the occupation?

With that said, I'd also be curious to know what percentage of Israelis feel they should withdraw from the strip and avoid the conflict? Is it a widespread belief that the land they seek is theirs or is this a reflection of the country's political and military leaders that insist on wresting the land from Palestine?

We see the face of the conflict, but what are the prevalent attitudes for both sides and how prevalent are they?

Well, their situations are very different. Israelis, if they support the zionist eretz-israel ambition, want to give nothing up, and in fact want to annex all of the land 'from the river to the sea'. There are definitely Israeli's working toward giving the Palestinians their own sovereign state, tho. I have no idea what the percentages are.
For the Palestinians....yes, there are probably a large portion of the people who feel that the Nakba was UN-sanctioned ethnic cleansing; a travesty almost universally opposed by everyone in the region, and imposed on it by western powers. They see it as a crime, and feel that Israel should not exist. I can see their point, but we are well beyond the point of one side kicking the other out completely being a valid solution. Also, the Palestinians could not simply cede the land and become Israeli citizens, even if that was the choice of the majority....Israel would not grant them citizenship, lest the 'demographic problem' affect the 'jewishness' of the state. Israel cannot be a 'self-determined-jewish-democracy', while both incorporating the occupied territories, and granting equal citizenship to all it's inhabitants. This is where the comparisons to, and the differences between South African apartheid come from. Israelis like to say that they are not practising apartheid because the Palestinians are not citizens, they are occupied peoples. So the Palestinians are in limbo. No sovereign nation from which to defend themselves, and no rights under their occupiers. If they were granted citizenship, and the demographic shifts to an Arab majority, Israel will likely no longer be a jewish state. This is where the right of return for Palestinian refugees also becomes such a contentious issue. So do you see the problem here? in a two state solution, both countries can exist. Do they exist peacefully? Probably not. I think eventual peace could come from being a true democracy for all people in the region. But even suggesting a single democratic state will have you called anti-semetic, and accused of wanting to see Israel wiped from the map.

badbrains said:

And now byrnzie can't post. What did byrnzie say to get him suspended?

Where do you see this? His avatar is intact. Are there varying degrees of 'user bans'?

Drowned Out said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Yosi has been very dispassionate in his discourse and I've been very impressed with his patience and ability to articulate his position. I've been on the other end of Byrnzie's 'mocking' tone in another thread and... well... it does tend to piss a guy off. To Byrnzie's credit in this discussion... he's relentless and very well read on this subject- he's more than entitled to his opinion.

He's English. Sarcasm, dry wit, and a touch of arrogance is their thing. ) And I love 'em for it.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I'd be curious to know what percentage of the Palestinian people would prefer to simply drop the issue and forfeit the land? As opposed to fighting what (at this moment) seems like an unwinnable situation, what percentage of people would prefer to concede the area to avoid the violence? Is there an unmistakable level of resolve within every Palestinian... or is it only the extremists that resist the occupation?

With that said, I'd also be curious to know what percentage of Israelis feel they should withdraw from the strip and avoid the conflict? Is it a widespread belief that the land they seek is theirs or is this a reflection of the country's political and military leaders that insist on wresting the land from Palestine?

We see the face of the conflict, but what are the prevalent attitudes for both sides and how prevalent are they?

Well, their situations are very different. Israelis, if they support the zionist eretz-israel ambition, want to give nothing up, and in fact want to annex all of the land 'from the river to the sea'. There are definitely Israeli's working toward giving the Palestinians their own sovereign state, tho. I have no idea what the percentages are.
For the Palestinians....yes, there are probably a large portion of the people who feel that the Nakba was UN-sanctioned ethnic cleansing; a travesty almost universally opposed by everyone in the region, and imposed on it by western powers. They see it as a crime, and feel that Israel should not exist. I can see their point, but we are well beyond the point of one side kicking the other out completely being a valid solution. Also, the Palestinians could not simply cede the land and become Israeli citizens, even if that was the choice of the majority....Israel would not grant them citizenship, lest the 'demographic problem' affect the 'jewishness' of the state. Israel cannot be a 'self-determined-jewish-democracy', while both incorporating the occupied territories, and granting equal citizenship to all it's inhabitants. This is where the comparisons to, and the differences between South African apartheid come from. Israelis like to say that they are not practising apartheid because the Palestinians are not citizens, they are occupied peoples. So the Palestinians are in limbo. No sovereign nation from which to defend themselves, and no rights under their occupiers. If they were granted citizenship, and the demographic shifts to an Arab majority, Israel will likely no longer be a jewish state. This is where the right of return for Palestinian refugees also becomes such a contentious issue. So do you see the problem here? in a two state solution, both countries can exist. Do they exist peacefully? Probably not. I think eventual peace could come from being a true democracy for all people in the region. But even suggesting a single democratic state will have you called anti-semetic, and accused of wanting to see Israel wiped from the map.

First of all, as I keep saying, Zionism and settler-far-right extremism are not the same thing. I would say that the vast majority of Israelis are Zionists but have no particular ideological commitment to the idea of greater Israel, i.e., "from the river to the sea." In fact, the common feeling on the Israeli left is that the settler's and those who support them are, despite their protestations and beliefs to the contrary, firmly anti-Zionist, as their actions show a disregard for the sovereignty and rule of law of the state, and actually pose the most serious existential threat to Israel's continued existence as both a Jewish and democratic state. For example:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/zionists-are-not-settlers-zionists-are-not-racists-1.292078
My own feeling from having lived in Israel and from speaking to my many friends who continue to live there is that most Israelis would, in theory, like for there to be peace on the basis of a two state solution. In practice there is very little trust among Israelis for the Palestinians. The Israeli perspective (and here I am not stating my own feelings) is that the conflict with the Arabs (not just the Palestinians) long pre-dates the occupation, and is actually about the existence of Israel itself. They look at the Arab world and see nothing to convince them that ending the occupation would bring them actual peace. They look at the withdrawal from Southern Lebanon (which was long occupied as a military buffer zone) and see that withdrawal was followed by periodic bouts of Hezbollah raining missiles into Israel. They look to the withdrawal from Gaza and see the same result. They look to the 1990's, when Israel handed over administrative and security control for most of the major Palestinian population centers in the West Bank to the Palestinian Authority as part of the Oslo process, and see that that was followed by a wave of suicide bombers. So basically there is a silent majority in Israel that wants peace but doesn't trust that they will get it by ending the occupation. On the contrary, they believe that ending the occupation now would mean less security for Israel.

badbrains said:

JohnnieBeBlue said:

Awww, Byrnzie can't comment anymore? I'm going to miss being called a racist murder supporting apartheid supporting pig.

In the meantime, enjoy this video from 3 days ago where Hamas Spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri freely admits and praises his people for serving as human shields. With the iron dome missile system, Israel uses the missiles to protect their people. Hamas is using their people to protect their missiles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6S0-o3uFI

Hmmmm, I wonder why byrnzie is suspended? Kind of ironic one of the guys with lots of information on the subject gets suspended. Wouldn't you say?

Oh, definitely. Do you think the Israelis paid the Ten Club off, or are the band actually owned by the Obama Administration?

Two opposing standpoints, one remains, the other is banned. Both communicate with well-researched opinions, but only one calls people names such as 'pig', 'murderer', 'racist', etc. I'd say the irony in this situation stems from the fact that, by neglecting to read, comprehend, or abide by the forum rules, the person trying to share information to educate others has himself been banned!

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/cut-power-gaza-dialysis-patients-knesset-deputy-speaker-urges

Cut off power to Gaza dialysis patients, Knesset deputy speaker urges

“The blood of a dialysis patient in Gaza is not redder than the blood of our IDF [Israeli army] soldiers who will, God forbid, need to enter [Gaza],” said Moshe Feiglin, the deputy speaker of the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, on Wednesday.

“Therefore I call on the prime minister who we all support in this difficult hour, before we send the IDF into Gaza, we should simply shut down their electricity,” he added.

...When lawmaker Ibrahim Sarsour of the United Arab List party condemned Israel’s attack on Gaza, Feiglin orders guards to forcibly remove him from the podium and expel him.