Jewish Settler Attacks = Terrorism

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  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    yosi said:

    Drowned Out said:

    The bottom line in this situation is that as long as the occupation continues, Israel has no legal nor moral right whatsoever to military self defense against Palestinians. period.

    I'm sorry, but that is utter nonsense. If I steal from you and you come after me with a knife I still have a right to defend myself. All the more so if you're coming after me in my own home. It is one thing for Hamas to use force against the Israeli military when they make incursions into Gaza. It is quite another to fire missiles into Israeli population centers. Deliberate targeting of civilians is unjustifiable, occupation or no.
    So who's stealing from who and who's coming after who with a knife in your post? Cause it sounds like you're saying that Israel is stealing and the Palestinians are coming after them only to have the Israelis defend themselves from the Palestinians. Cause and effect??? Chicken or egg first??? See what I'm getting at?

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,153
    My point is that whatever Israel is guilty of does not justify the deliberate and indiscriminate targeting of civilians, which is a war crime clear as day. For all the talk of war crimes on this thread it should be acknowledged that 400 missiles intentionally fired at civilians is 400 war crimes. Israel not only has a right but a responsibility to defend its citizens against such attacks. Deliberately targeting civilians cannot be justified no matter what wrongs serve as the excuse. Suggesting that Israel has brought this on itself is to normalize, excuse, and apologize for criminal, barbaric, and frankly evil actions, as if intentionally committing a war crime every ten minutes on average (that's the rate of fire from Gaza) is an acceptable response to one's grievances.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi said:

    I'm sorry, but that is utter nonsense. If I steal from you and you come after me with a knife I still have a right to defend myself. All the more so if you're coming after me in my own home. It is one thing for Hamas to use force against the Israeli military when they make incursions into Gaza. It is quite another to fire missiles into Israeli population centers. Deliberate targeting of civilians is unjustifiable, occupation or no.

    Dropping bombs on densely populated residential areas is o.k though, right? How many Israeli's were killed during Operation Cast Lead in 2008-2009? Was it 3? Compared with 1600 Palestinians killed. And how many Israeli's have been killed this week? None. Compared with over 90 Palestinians.
    But I don't hear you criticizing Israel's disproportionate use of force against Palestinian civilians. Once again, trying to turn reality on it's head.

    What's your opinion on this?:

    http://electronicintifada.net/content/book-review-case-against-israel/5955
    As for “terrorism”, which [Micahel Neumann] defines as “random violence against non-combatants”, he distinguishes it from “collateral damage” with the assertion that the latter “involves knowingly killing innocent civilians” while “Terrorism involves intentionally killing innocent civilians”, concluding that “the moral difference is too academic even for an academic.” Why, then, is “terrorism” considered to be particularly morally repugnant, while “collateral damage” tends to be taken in our moral stride?

    “Imagine trying to make such a claim. You say: ‘To achieve my objectives, I would certainly drop bombs with the knowledge that they would blow the arms off some children. But to achieve those same objectives, I would not plant or set off a bomb on the ground with the knowledge that it would have that same effect. After all, I have planes to do that, I don’t need to plant bombs.’ As a claim of moral superiority, this needs a little work.”

    The Palestinians, he repeats, are without options. Israel has all the options, principally that of unilateral withdrawal from the Occupied Territories, but refuses to use them. Hence he refuses “to pronounce judgment on Palestinian terrorism.”
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi said:

    Israel not only has a right but a responsibility to defend its citizens against such attacks.

    Bullshit. They can defend their citizens by withdrawing to their legal borders, and fortifying those borders. One act of criminality - the occupation - does not give them the right to commit further criminal acts - bombing residential areas.

    "Israel has a right of self defence, but it does not apply in the Occupied Territories. If the U.S invaded Jamaica and dotted it with settlements, neither the settlers nor the armed forces could invoke any right to defend themselves against the Jamaicans, any more than a robber who invaded your house. So it is with the Israeli's in the Occupied Territories. Their right of self-defense is their right to the least violent defensive alternative. Since withdrawal (perhaps followed by fortifying their own 1948 border) is by far their best and least violent defense, that is all they have a right to do." - Michael Neumann

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,153
    Byrnzie said:

    yosi said:

    I'm sorry, but that is utter nonsense. If I steal from you and you come after me with a knife I still have a right to defend myself. All the more so if you're coming after me in my own home. It is one thing for Hamas to use force against the Israeli military when they make incursions into Gaza. It is quite another to fire missiles into Israeli population centers. Deliberate targeting of civilians is unjustifiable, occupation or no.

    Dropping bombs on densely populated residential areas is o.k though, right? How many Israeli's were killed during Operation Cast Lead in 2008-2009? Was it 3? Compared with 1600 Palestinians killed. And how many Israeli's have been killed this week? None. Compared with over 90 Palestinians.
    But I don't hear you criticizing Israel's disproportionate use of force against Palestinian civilians. Once again, trying to turn reality on it's head.

    What's your opinion on this?:

    http://electronicintifada.net/content/book-review-case-against-israel/5955
    As for “terrorism”, which [Micahel Neumann] defines as “random violence against non-combatants”, he distinguishes it from “collateral damage” with the assertion that the latter “involves knowingly killing innocent civilians” while “Terrorism involves intentionally killing innocent civilians”, concluding that “the moral difference is too academic even for an academic.” Why, then, is “terrorism” considered to be particularly morally repugnant, while “collateral damage” tends to be taken in our moral stride?

    “Imagine trying to make such a claim. You say: ‘To achieve my objectives, I would certainly drop bombs with the knowledge that they would blow the arms off some children. But to achieve those same objectives, I would not plant or set off a bomb on the ground with the knowledge that it would have that same effect. After all, I have planes to do that, I don’t need to plant bombs.’ As a claim of moral superiority, this needs a little work.”

    The Palestinians, he repeats, are without options. Israel has all the options, principally that of unilateral withdrawal from the Occupied Territories, but refuses to use them. Hence he refuses “to pronounce judgment on Palestinian terrorism.”
    My opinion is that it is not a morally defensible position to excuse war crimes and terrorism on the basis of political or military weakness, or because the perpetrators of those offenses are themselves victims.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,153
    Byrnzie said:

    yosi said:

    Israel not only has a right but a responsibility to defend its citizens against such attacks.

    Bullshit. They can defend their citizens by withdrawing to their legal borders, and fortifying those borders. One act of criminality - the occupation - does not give them the right to commit further criminal acts - bombing residential areas.

    "Israel has a right of self defence, but it does not apply in the Occupied Territories. If the U.S invaded Jamaica and dotted it with settlements, neither the settlers nor the armed forces could invoke any right to defend themselves against the Jamaicans, any more than a robber who invaded your house. So it is with the Israeli's in the Occupied Territories. Their right of self-defense is their right to the least violent defensive alternative. Since withdrawal (perhaps followed by fortifying their own 1948 border) is by far their best and least violent defense, that is all they have a right to do." - Michael Neumann

    Withdrawing to and fortifying the border is exactly what they did in Gaza. The targets of the missiles coming from Gaza aren't occupiers on Palestinian land. They are Israeli civilians in Israel. You can't expect anyone to take you seriously when you cry "war crime" if you are constantly apologizing for the war crimes committed by your side. It's rank hypocrisy.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,153
    yosi said:

    Byrnzie said:

    yosi said:

    Israel not only has a right but a responsibility to defend its citizens against such attacks.

    Bullshit. They can defend their citizens by withdrawing to their legal borders, and fortifying those borders. One act of criminality - the occupation - does not give them the right to commit further criminal acts - bombing residential areas.

    "Israel has a right of self defence, but it does not apply in the Occupied Territories. If the U.S invaded Jamaica and dotted it with settlements, neither the settlers nor the armed forces could invoke any right to defend themselves against the Jamaicans, any more than a robber who invaded your house. So it is with the Israeli's in the Occupied Territories. Their right of self-defense is their right to the least violent defensive alternative. Since withdrawal (perhaps followed by fortifying their own 1948 border) is by far their best and least violent defense, that is all they have a right to do." - Michael Neumann

    Withdrawing to and fortifying the border is exactly what they did in Gaza. The targets of the missiles coming from Gaza aren't occupiers on Palestinian land. They are Israeli civilians in Israel. You can't expect anyone to take you seriously when you cry "war crime" if you are constantly apologizing for the war crimes committed by your side. It's rank hypocrisy.
    By the way, the robber analogy in the quote you use is flawed. Whether or not a robber has a right to self-defense when he invades your house, he certainly has a right to self-defense if, after he's robbed your house you go to his house and attack him with a knife. In other words, I find the notion that the occupation justifies the intentional criminal targeting of civilians within Israel to be a completely immoral and unjustifiable position. Moreover, it is an attack on Israel, not the occupation.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi said:

    Withdrawing to and fortifying the border is exactly what they did in Gaza.

    No they didn't, and you know it. The Israeli's maintained control of Gaza's coastline, it's air space, and it's land borders, and it turned the area into a virtual prison. In the meantime, Israel escalated it's extra-judicial assassinations. Why do you, and every other apologist of Israel, continue pretending that the Gaza 'withdrawal' was anything other than a PR ploy to divert attention from Israel's increased settlement expansion in the West Bank?
    yosi said:

    The targets of the missiles coming from Gaza aren't occupiers on Palestinian land. They are Israeli civilians in Israel. You can't expect anyone to take you seriously when you cry "war crime" if you are constantly apologizing for the war crimes committed by your side. It's rank hypocrisy.

    And the targets of Israel's bombs and bullets are not terrorists, they're unarmed civilians, as evidenced by the ample testimonies of Israeli soldiers themselves. But you don't give a fuck about that, do you? Because the life of a Palestinian isn't worth the toenail of a Jew, right?

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2014
    yosi said:

    By the way, the robber analogy in the quote you use is flawed. Whether or not a robber has a right to self-defense when he invades your house, he certainly has a right to self-defense if, after he's robbed your house you go to his house and attack him with a knife. In other words, I find the notion that the occupation justifies the intentional criminal targeting of civilians within Israel to be a completely immoral and unjustifiable position. Moreover, it is an attack on Israel, not the occupation.

    You can spin it however you want, but only an idiot - or somebody lacking even an ounce of honesty - would pretend righteous indignation at the Palestinians responding to this latest massacre with the only means at their disposal.
    It's perfectly simple, Israel has the option to end the criminal occupation, and withdraw to it's legal borders. This it refuses to do. Instead it expands it's illegal racist settlements on Palestinian land, and routinely reigns terror on the heads of the Palestinians. And when the Palestinians react with the only means at their disposal - the rockets - you cry foul and pretend to be the victims.

    Totally fucking shameless.

    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,153
    I'm not doing this with you again. There's no point in talking to you when you are categorically incapable of even the slightest objectivity. The fact that you refuse to even acknowledge that targeting Israeli civilians is wrong, and worse, that you constantly seek to apologize or excuse such actions is simply deplorable. Only one of us has never expressed basic human empathy for the other side in this conflict, and it isn't me.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    yosi said:

    I'm not doing this with you again. There's no point in talking to you when you are categorically incapable of even the slightest objectivity. The fact that you refuse to even acknowledge that targeting Israeli civilians is wrong, and worse, that you constantly seek to apologize or excuse such actions is simply deplorable. Only one of us has never expressed basic human empathy for the other side in this conflict, and it isn't me.

    Targeting ANY human civilian is wrong. But in all honesty yosi, Israel has not only targeted innocent civilians, it's actually KILLED innocent civilians. 90 Palestinians in 3 fucken days! That's 30 a day. And ZERO Israelis! How many of the Palestinians were kids?!?! This bullshit has to stop and I got news for you guys in Israel, people are starting to FINALLY see and realize what your manic leaders are doing. Some of you apologist for Israel have no problem ranting about the leaders of Palestine (Hamas) but what about your fucken leaders? The leaders of Israel are terrorist by their own definition of the word. Every way you describe Hamas can be said about the Israeli government.

    And getting back to the assholes who burned that kid alive, we all know NOTHING is gonna happen to them. I wouldn't be surprised if they fucken name a town after them. Ben is pretty much the only Jewish poster on the thread that has actually came out and condemned the shit Israel is doing. None of you others have. We've asked what should happen to the pussy ass killers of that child should get, no one answers. Byrnzie asks if you guys support the ethnic cleansing or stealing of the Palestinian lands, all u guys respond with is we support Israel. Translation-fuck Palestine and Israel can do NO WRONG. Blind support for a rogue nation, ya, something to be proud about.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi said:

    I'm not doing this with you again. There's no point in talking to you when you are categorically incapable of even the slightest objectivity. The fact that you refuse to even acknowledge that targeting Israeli civilians is wrong, and worse, that you constantly seek to apologize or excuse such actions is simply deplorable. Only one of us has never expressed basic human empathy for the other side in this conflict, and it isn't me.

    Israel is engaged in a massive crime - the occupation and encroaching land-grab. And settler attacks against Palestinian civilians are a daily occurrence, and include beatings and murder. In May two Palestinian teenagers were murdered in cold blood by an Israeli sniper and it was brushed under the carpet, as per usual. But when three Israelis are killed then the U.S President makes a mournful speech about it on TV, and the Israeli leadership cover up the events in order to inflame racial hatred amongst the population, and inspire a mass wave if beatings, looting, and murder, culminating in a full military assault upon the people of Gaza.
    And when the Palestinians fire some rockets towards Israel, Yosi pleads self-defence.

    Typical.

    Yet every honest person knows full well that this latest Israeli massacre is simply retaliation for the Hamas-Fatah unity deal.

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Yosi, collective punishment, and the deliberate targeting of civilians, are war crimes. Yes, or no?
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    I think everyone into politics SHOULD read this book:

    They to Dare Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront Israel's Lobby
    Book by Paul Findley
    They to Dare Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront Israel's Lobby is a bestselling book that was written in 1985, had a second edition published in 1989 and a third in 2003 by American former Representative/Congressman Paul Findley. Wikipedia
    Published: 1985
    Author: Paul Findley

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,153
    badbrains said:

    yosi said:

    I'm not doing this with you again. There's no point in talking to you when you are categorically incapable of even the slightest objectivity. The fact that you refuse to even acknowledge that targeting Israeli civilians is wrong, and worse, that you constantly seek to apologize or excuse such actions is simply deplorable. Only one of us has never expressed basic human empathy for the other side in this conflict, and it isn't me.

    Targeting ANY human civilian is wrong. But in all honesty yosi, Israel has not only targeted innocent civilians, it's actually KILLED innocent civilians. 90 Palestinians in 3 fucken days! That's 30 a day. And ZERO Israelis! How many of the Palestinians were kids?!?! This bullshit has to stop and I got news for you guys in Israel, people are starting to FINALLY see and realize what your manic leaders are doing. Some of you apologist for Israel have no problem ranting about the leaders of Palestine (Hamas) but what about your fucken leaders? The leaders of Israel are terrorist by their own definition of the word. Every way you describe Hamas can be said about the Israeli government.

    And getting back to the assholes who burned that kid alive, we all know NOTHING is gonna happen to them. I wouldn't be surprised if they fucken name a town after them. Ben is pretty much the only Jewish poster on the thread that has actually came out and condemned the shit Israel is doing. None of you others have. We've asked what should happen to the pussy ass killers of that child should get, no one answers. Byrnzie asks if you guys support the ethnic cleansing or stealing of the Palestinian lands, all u guys respond with is we support Israel. Translation-fuck Palestine and Israel can do NO WRONG. Blind support for a rogue nation, ya, something to be proud about.
    You know, I could tell you that this is entirely unfair to me since I've repeatedly voiced my own criticisms of Israel's policies in no uncertain terms. But apparently it doesn't matter what I actually say since if I disagree with you about anything at all I must be a blind apologist.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,153
    Byrnzie said:

    Yosi, collective punishment, and the deliberate targeting of civilians, are war crimes. Yes, or no?

    Yes. May I assume that you would agree that that is just as true when done by Palestinians as when done by Israelis?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Yosi, I'll give u that, you do criticize Israel's policy towards the Palestinians to a point. I would like to know what you think SHOULD happen to those terrorist settlers who burned that Palestinian alive? I just want to know what u think. I'd ask the other 2 who have posted in this thread but I'm tired of asking them over and over again.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,153
    They should be tried for murder and imprisoned for life.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,153
    It's more than a little insulting that you would even ask.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    Does anyone following this thread (because clearly it's a debate between two people) think that there can realistically be a peace between Jews and Arabs? These two have been going in circles for what seems to be forever. Byrnzie and yosi are two very smart people, and can't agree on ANY point the other makes. So why would any of us think that the politicians can get anything done? The little that I know about middle east politics include that both Isreal and Palestine are guilty of horrible atrocities. Until both sides can forget about the past and truly want peace, nothing will ever get accomplished.
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