German exchange student killed in Montana's Castle Doctrine case

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  • BinFrog
    BinFrog MA Posts: 7,314
    polaris_x said:

    can we all agree tho that whatever his intention that night - that death is not a suitable consequence!?

    Absolutely.
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  • Leezestarr313
    Leezestarr313 Temple of the cat Posts: 14,457
    BinFrog said:

    A) No, you shouldn't need a gun to do either
    B) In that situation, how do you know the 17 year old doesn't have a gun?
    C) Does a 17 year old really need to go into a stranger's garage because he sees a purse left out in the open?

    From what I read the guy went in there on the search for drinks. (No, I am not defending the intrusion of a property to take something away that is not yours) Also, I read that the shooter himself couldn't see anything because they had switched off the lights in the garage. How was the intruder supposed to see the purse there? I see the point that the intruder might have had a gun. Still, from what I understand shooting would be a means of defense when the homeowner feels threatened for their life. And even then, wouldn't you try to immobilise the intruder instead of killing them?
    And why didn't the wife call the police while they were at it?
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  • vant0037
    vant0037 Posts: 6,170
    This is why giving statements to police is usually unhelpful for you (you end up incriminating the shit out of yourself):

    "Mr Kaarma, a 29-year-old firefighter, has told investigators his home had twice been hit by burglars, and he told a hair stylist he had waited up at night to shoot intruders, prosecutors said.

    On the night of the shooting, Mr Kaarma and his partner Janelle Pflager left their garage door open, and Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police."

    ...and this guy's attorney is not doing his client any favors:

    "Mr Kaarma's lawyer said his client planned to plead not guilty.

    The state allows residents to protect their homes with deadly force when they believe they are going to be harmed, said his lawyer, Paul Ryan.

    "We know with no question the individual entered the garage," Mr Ryan said. "Kaarma didn't know who he was, his intent or whether he was armed."

    He said that there had been a spate of break-ins in the neighbourhood and Mr Kaarma did not think the police were doing anything about them."

    Sheesh. Hard to argue self-defense because you're afraid of being harmed if you admit you have no idea who the person is, what his intent was, or whether he was armed...
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  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    vant0037 said:

    This is why giving statements to police is usually unhelpful for you (you end up incriminating the shit out of yourself):

    "Mr Kaarma, a 29-year-old firefighter, has told investigators his home had twice been hit by burglars, and he told a hair stylist he had waited up at night to shoot intruders, prosecutors said.

    On the night of the shooting, Mr Kaarma and his partner Janelle Pflager left their garage door open, and Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police."

    ...and this guy's attorney is not doing his client any favors:

    "Mr Kaarma's lawyer said his client planned to plead not guilty.

    The state allows residents to protect their homes with deadly force when they believe they are going to be harmed, said his lawyer, Paul Ryan.

    "We know with no question the individual entered the garage," Mr Ryan said. "Kaarma didn't know who he was, his intent or whether he was armed."

    He said that there had been a spate of break-ins in the neighbourhood and Mr Kaarma did not think the police were doing anything about them."

    Sheesh. Hard to argue self-defense because you're afraid of being harmed if you admit you have no idea who the person is, what his intent was, or whether he was armed...

    In short... a moron. We're dealing with a moron.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    My take...
    "Basic Rule of Thumb: No. 57" should kick in... "When in Montana (or Idaho or Wyoming) expect that everyone has a gun trained on you at all times, Therefore, do not go into places you know you should not go into... such as Montana, Idaho or Wyoming."
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  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    Dogs. They protect your home better than any alarm. Also, if you trespass in my house my dogs will stop you and if you cause harm to my dogs I now have the impetus I need to declare you a threat and act accordingly...I couldn't just shoot someone, but if they hurt my buddyboys I'll bet I wouldn't hesitate. It seems painfully simple to me, but then I have zero desire to put a bullet in someone and many, if not most, dream of just such a chance.
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  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    edited May 2014
    Not to mention, what happened to the art of actually speaking to said intruder before firing upon him? Because the Castle Doctrine law doesn't specify that one should?
  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    Leezestarr313 said:

    I definitely think it was a bad idea. What I meant was that as a non-American you don't grow up with the thought of normal people having guns and being ready to shoot in your head. Even though the exchange organisations provide lots of info to prepare people. If he was there to steal something, he definitely knew he was doing something wrong, but maybe he didn't think that there was the possibility of being shot to death. This topic is being discussed in German newspapers as well, of course. And Germans' minds are boggled when they hear that the fellow pupils of the boy are defending the shooter. An American boy or girl maybe would not have tried to attempt something like this, knowing that there are laws like the Castle doctrine.

    I'm sorry to hear that the classmates are defending an asshole with a gun. But not surprised. 'mericans love their killing machines! :(
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 51,032
    I think that firing a shotgun blindly into a room when you don't know who or what you're shooting at - and actually putting BAIT in that room to lure a petty thief who has never threatened his personal safety before shooting blindly - is a criminal act, and this idiot ought to go to prison for a long time so that the rest of us are protected from him. He clearly thought this was a reasonable plan of action, that shooting into a room when he had no idea who was even in there was a good way to go about things, and that belief is a very real danger to society IMO. He thinks that death is a good punishment for petty theft. What the fucking fuck?

    That dumbass teenager shouldn't have been in there, but no one should be shot to death because they are sneaking into garages and taking a few things.
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  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Cosmo said:

    My take...
    "Basic Rule of Thumb: No. 57" should kick in... "When in Montana (or Idaho or Wyoming) expect that everyone has a gun trained on you at all times, Therefore, do not go into places you know you should not go into... such as Montana, Idaho or Wyoming."

    Okay... so if I'm getting this straight...

    1. Precaution number one: never go into Montana, Idaho, or Wyoming.

    2. Precaution number two: failing precaution one... realizing you are in Montana, Idaho, or Wyoming... get the hell out of Montana, Idaho, or Wyoming.

    3. Precaution number three: failing precaution number one or two... stay the hell away from people because they have their guns trained on you.

    Did I get this right?


    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 51,032
    ^^^ LOL.
    Well I absolutely loved Missoula when I went for the show in 2012. Beautiful little town with gorgeous surroundings, and the people were great. I hope this moron who kills people for stealing his socket wrench doesn't make anyone stay away from that nice town.
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  • josevolution
    josevolution Posts: 32,367
    So now it's just shoot & ask ???s later , this country is totally fucked up with this Cowboy mentality note to all foreigners this country is full of people with guns that have no problem shooting you ....
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  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    edited May 2014
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Cosmo said:

    My take...
    "Basic Rule of Thumb: No. 57" should kick in... "When in Montana (or Idaho or Wyoming) expect that everyone has a gun trained on you at all times, Therefore, do not go into places you know you should not go into... such as Montana, Idaho or Wyoming."

    Okay... so if I'm getting this straight...

    1. Precaution number one: never go into Montana, Idaho, or Wyoming.

    2. Precaution number two: failing precaution one... realizing you are in Montana, Idaho, or Wyoming... get the hell out of Montana, Idaho, or Wyoming.

    3. Precaution number three: failing precaution number one or two... stay the hell away from people because they have their guns trained on you.

    Did I get this right?
    ...
    In a nutshell... yup.
    The thing being, if you are prone to wandering into other people's homes or garages... be sure which homes and garages you wander into... which is addressed in "Basic Rule Of Thumb: No. 5" "Avoid wandering into other people's homes and garages".

    Post edited by Cosmo on
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  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Cosmo said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Cosmo said:

    My take...
    "Basic Rule of Thumb: No. 57" should kick in... "When in Montana (or Idaho or Wyoming) expect that everyone has a gun trained on you at all times, Therefore, do not go into places you know you should not go into... such as Montana, Idaho or Wyoming."

    Okay... so if I'm getting this straight...

    1. Precaution number one: never go into Montana, Idaho, or Wyoming.

    2. Precaution number two: failing precaution one... realizing you are in Montana, Idaho, or Wyoming... get the hell out of Montana, Idaho, or Wyoming.

    3. Precaution number three: failing precaution number one or two... stay the hell away from people because they have their guns trained on you.

    Did I get this right?
    ...
    In a nutshell... yup.
    The thing being, if you are prone to wandering into other people's homes or garages... be sure which homes and garages you wander into... which is addressed in "Basic Rule Of Thumb: No. 5" "Avoid wandering into other people's homes and garages".

    Geez... good point.

    Wanderers have staved off extinction to this point because the typical defence mechanism people use against their wandering is usually: "Get the fuck outta here!" followed by a 'bluff charge' (very effective by the way!).

    Wanderers need to realize it's a damn turkey shoot in other places. They ain't playing the wandering game.

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  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    "what the fucking fuck"
    i enjoy your posts PJsoul. Passionate and unequivocating, the world needs less politcal correctness and more bold EV-like statements!!
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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 43,469
    Bump
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