German exchange student killed in Montana's Castle Doctrine case

backseatLover12
backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
edited May 2014 in A Moving Train


The father of a German exchange student shot dead in Montana after he trespassed in a man's garage has said the US cannot continue to "play cowboy" with firearms.

Markus Kaarma has been charged with deliberate murder in the Sunday killing of Diren Dede, 17, of Hamburg.

But he says Montana's self-defence law allowed him to shoot the boy.



Full story at http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-27243115
Post edited by backseatLover12 on
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Comments

  • g under p
    g under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,254
    That's just another sad gun story in which there's far too many in this country. I gather we here like to shoot first then ask questions later, in between someone usually dies.

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  • elvistheking44
    elvistheking44 Posts: 4,553
    I like the part that says "it's unclear why the teenager was in the garage". Pretty sure it was to steal the purse they baited him with. Hmmm.....
  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    elvistheking44 said:

    I like the part that says "it's unclear why the teenager was in the garage". Pretty sure it was to steal the purse they baited him with. Hmmm.....

    Me too. Which means the whole thing was entrapment in order to use the self-defense excuse...
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,615
    As always there are too many guns in this country. Castle doctrine or not, you should lose any such protection if you have lured someone into your home.

    Conversely, an open garage door is not an invitation. This kid had no business entering the garage. If he did not trespass he would still be alive.
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  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,436
    JimmyV said:

    As always there are too many guns in this country. Castle doctrine or not, you should lose any such protection if you have lured someone into your home.

    Conversely, an open garage door is not an invitation. This kid had no business entering the garage. If he did not trespass he would still be alive.

    He set bait. Much like setting up an auto deer feed station and sitting in a tree and shooting a deer. Humans ... the ultimate prey.
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  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    not saying this is the case but what if the kid saw that the purse was just sitting there and was planning to hide it so no one would take it? ... in any case - how can people support a culture that believes death is a reasonable response to break ins?
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    i have less of a problem with guns being out there than i have with laws like this being on the books out there. These "stand your ground", "castle doctrine" type laws literally make the unintelligent think they can get away with murder and sometimes they are right. So sad to live in a land where a thing is equal to a life.
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  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    edited May 2014
    Montana's so-called "castle doctrine" law was amended in 2009 to allow deadly force if a homeowner "reasonably believes" an intruder is trying to harm him or her.

    I'm not sure how these idiots felt they were in danger of being harmed. This guy is a firefighter. He's supposed to have a mentality that is in the interest of preserving life.

    I don't think the kid was there for any good reasons, but what might be the case, Polaris, is a weak moment for the kid as he saw an opportunity.

    This is murder- pure and simple... but again, don't mess with people in the US. They have guns and some seem very eager to use them. You never know who you are dealing with: if a 29 year old firefighter will shoot down a teenager in their garage... it's safe to say there are others with itchy trigger fingers and less patience that would shoot you for less.
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  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    and they do. Hence my position humans can't handle the power of a gun.
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  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,615
    Jason P said:

    JimmyV said:

    As always there are too many guns in this country. Castle doctrine or not, you should lose any such protection if you have lured someone into your home.

    Conversely, an open garage door is not an invitation. This kid had no business entering the garage. If he did not trespass he would still be alive.

    He set bait. Much like setting up an auto deer feed station and sitting in a tree and shooting a deer. Humans ... the ultimate prey.
    And this kid had just about as much chance to defend himself as would a deer.

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  • Leezestarr313
    Leezestarr313 Temple of the cat Posts: 14,457
    If you didn't grow up in a country that is so gun crazy, you might not even have the mind set to think that a situation like this could be that dangerous. I am German and rather new to the States and I still have knowledge and experience gaps that could potentially put me in danger. Sometimes it is hard to not get overly paranoid... I used to be enjoying city life in Germany, over here I want to be as far away from crowds and people as possible. Weird, huh.
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  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,615
    Leezestarr313 said:

    If you didn't grow up in a country that is so gun crazy, you might not even have the mind set to think that a situation like this could be that dangerous. I am German and rather new to the States and I still have knowledge and experience gaps that could potentially put me in danger. Sometimes it is hard to not get overly paranoid... I used to be enjoying city life in Germany, over here I want to be as far away from crowds and people as possible. Weird, huh.

    You might not think it could be so dangerous but at the same time would you think that strolling into someone else's garage uninvited was inappropriate and a bad idea?
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  • Leezestarr313
    Leezestarr313 Temple of the cat Posts: 14,457
    edited May 2014
    I definitely think it was a bad idea. What I meant was that as a non-American you don't grow up with the thought of normal people having guns and being ready to shoot in your head. Even though the exchange organisations provide lots of info to prepare people. If he was there to steal something, he definitely knew he was doing something wrong, but maybe he didn't think that there was the possibility of being shot to death. This topic is being discussed in German newspapers as well, of course. And Germans' minds are boggled when they hear that the fellow pupils of the boy are defending the shooter. An American boy or girl maybe would not have tried to attempt something like this, knowing that there are laws like the Castle doctrine.
    Post edited by Leezestarr313 on
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  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,615
    I hear you. It is an awful story. I can't speak for all Americans but I myself am just beginning to understand laws like this even exist. I don't believe we have an equivalent law here in Massachusetts.
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  • BinFrog
    BinFrog MA Posts: 7,314
    Sad story, and the shooter deserves some sort of jail time.

    But baited or not: why the hell was the kid (German or not, who cares) going into the garage? Being German doesn't mean you are somehow immune from making stupid decisions. I'm pretty sure in Germany there are laws against trespassing and theft.
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  • Leezestarr313
    Leezestarr313 Temple of the cat Posts: 14,457
    Yeah, of course. I don't get it either. Also, if this kid was in the US as an exchange student, he was not coming from a poor family. I don't get it. Maybe it was some sort of dare game? Maybe he was just being stupid and immature? We might never know.
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  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    can we all agree tho that whatever his intention that night - that death is not a suitable consequence!?
  • Leezestarr313
    Leezestarr313 Temple of the cat Posts: 14,457
    edited May 2014
    Agreed, polaris_x.

    So a homeowner is allowed to use deadly force upon an intruder if they "reasonably believe" an intruder is trying to harm him or her. Just for understanding, is "harm" further defined in that law? There is so much room for interpretation right there.
    Post edited by Leezestarr313 on
    Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue! http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/148993/please-pearl-jam-consider-a-vinyl-benaroya-hall-re-issue


  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Do you need a gun to over power or scare away a 17? Real manly.
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  • BinFrog
    BinFrog MA Posts: 7,314
    A) No, you shouldn't need a gun to do either
    B) In that situation, how do you know the 17 year old doesn't have a gun?
    C) Does a 17 year old really need to go into a stranger's garage because he sees a purse left out in the open?
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