Not Criminally Responsible

Hugh Freaking Dillon
Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
edited November 2013 in A Moving Train
http://www.cbc.ca/player/Shows/Shows/Doc+Zone/ID/2412726591/

Thirty Bills Unpaid and I have had many a discussion/argument about how people who are mentally ill and commit crimes should be treated after they are deemed "no longer a threat to themselves and society". I am on the fence about it sometimes, as with the Vince Li (Greyhound bus beheader/cannibal) case. On CBC recently (link above to video), a show called Doc Zone aired an episode called Not Criminally Responsible. It follows a man who randomly stabbed a woman six times outside of a Walmart in Cornwall, Ontario, not knowing her, not ever seeing her before in his life.

The devil told him to kill the prettiest girl in the mall.

He didn't even try to escape. He waited there and went with police without incident.

She survived, but upon watching this documentary, she is still very much in recovery. She can't speak about it without trembling and crying. The perpetrator has recently been released from his mental hospital, after undergoing 8 years of therapy and drug treatment. The staff at the hospital that were interviewed mentioned that they had never seen in all their years a man who was so far gone in his Obsessive Compulsive Disorder before, which didn't help his psychotic schizophrenia.

This guy, at this point in time, has accepted that he is sick, always will be sick, and knows he needs to take his meds to keep his wits about him. The victim says she wants him to be forever monitored to make sure he continues taking his medication so he never does anything like this again. I mean, really, what would be stopping him from one day deciding "I don't need these anymore". The nurses and experts agree that if he stopped taking them, he would return to his psychotic state in a very short time period; as much as 2 weeks, but likely a week or less.

I personally think that if he is to be released back into society, that even though he was not criminally responsible, we as a society have a responsibility to make sure he follows through with his requirements to stay mentally healthy and safe for the rest of the populace. I don't see any difference between probation for a released convict and probation for someone who is potentially murderous.

Should be allowed back into society, and if so, should he be monitored and tested regularly?

Thoughts?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    I watched the program.

    The man's illness is serious. It seemed to have gotten better with treatment, but without medication... this man poses a threat to society.

    The man had very disappointing experiences with women- mainly in the form of rejection- that contributed somewhat to his hostile disposition towards them and, ultimately, his random attack on one of them.

    A very serious crime was committed. Generally speaking, once someone has crossed that line, I'm not normally in favour of responding kindly to them regardless of 'motivating factors'. With regards to this individual case, I was not so readily eager to dismiss the factors contributing to the guy's breakdown and assault.

    The one 'troubling' component of the program was that he had sought help at the hospital just prior to the attack and they sent him along his way. He had recognized he was losing it, but medical staffers dismissed the plea for help.

    I don't understand mental illness well enough. I feel that in this case, there was a definitive mental illness. In many other cases, I have not been of the mindset to accept it as a defence because I didn't view it as legitimate from what I understood from the information I could access.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    i can't get the video to play
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,671
    I know (more like knew- no interest in keeping in touch) someone like that. This person seems and acts very normal when taking meds but when this person (see- I can't even say their gender- don't want him/her in my life) decides to get off meds they are dangerous. Often, people with mental disorders do not want to stay on meds- at least this is true with manic depressives (p.c. = bipolar) who miss the highs that are part of the disorder.

    So how do we know this guy will stay on his meds? How often must he be monitored? The question of how to care for someone like this is perplexing. It's not like they chose have a mental disorder anymore than someone chooses to have any other kind of illness and yet the safety of others needs to be considered.

    Quite a difficult conundrum, HFD.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    I watched the program.

    The man's illness is serious. It seemed to have gotten better with treatment, but without medication... this man poses a threat to society.

    The man had very disappointing experiences with women- mainly in the form of rejection- that contributed somewhat to his hostile disposition towards them and, ultimately, his random attack on one of them.

    A very serious crime was committed. Generally speaking, once someone has crossed that line, I'm not normally in favour of responding kindly to them regardless of 'motivating factors'. With regards to this individual case, I was not so readily eager to dismiss the factors contributing to the guy's breakdown and assault.

    The one 'troubling' component of the program was that he had sought help at the hospital just prior to the attack and they sent him along his way. He had recognized he was losing it, but medical staffers dismissed the plea for help.

    I don't understand mental illness well enough. I feel that in this case, there was a definitive mental illness. In many other cases, I have not been of the mindset to accept it as a defence because I didn't view it as legitimate from what I understood from the information I could access.

    my guess is that his mental illness/breakdown was not CAUSED by his repeated rejection from women, it was merely the way his illness acted when he could no longer control it. if you remember that his mother was, from what he described, incredibly mentally unstable and emotionally abusive to him and his brothers, it's hard not to sympathize with this guy's upbringing. I don't know if psychosis is a predetermined condition, or if it has mitigating factors (like life experiences) that bring it on. I'd have to look more into that.

    But do you think he should be set free and monitored? or should he be kept behind locked doors even though he can now function in society with the help of medication?
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    I watched the program.

    The man's illness is serious. It seemed to have gotten better with treatment, but without medication... this man poses a threat to society.

    The man had very disappointing experiences with women- mainly in the form of rejection- that contributed somewhat to his hostile disposition towards them and, ultimately, his random attack on one of them.

    A very serious crime was committed. Generally speaking, once someone has crossed that line, I'm not normally in favour of responding kindly to them regardless of 'motivating factors'. With regards to this individual case, I was not so readily eager to dismiss the factors contributing to the guy's breakdown and assault.

    The one 'troubling' component of the program was that he had sought help at the hospital just prior to the attack and they sent him along his way. He had recognized he was losing it, but medical staffers dismissed the plea for help.

    I don't understand mental illness well enough. I feel that in this case, there was a definitive mental illness. In many other cases, I have not been of the mindset to accept it as a defence because I didn't view it as legitimate from what I understood from the information I could access.

    my guess is that his mental illness/breakdown was not CAUSED by his repeated rejection from women, it was merely the way his illness acted when he could no longer control it. if you remember that his mother was, from what he described, incredibly mentally unstable and emotionally abusive to him and his brothers, it's hard not to sympathize with this guy's upbringing. I don't know if psychosis is a predetermined condition, or if it has mitigating factors (like life experiences) that bring it on. I'd have to look more into that.

    But do you think he should be set free and monitored? or should he be kept behind locked doors even though he can now function in society with the help of medication?

    I never said his breakdown was CAUSED by repeated rejection- I said it was a contributor to his hostility (he said so himself).

    Let me ask you: are you confident that this guy can manage the aspects of his life to be safe within society? If there is a shadow of doubt and somebody might get hurt or killed because he cannot function... then that is taking a pretty big risk.

    I guess I'm thinking of an environment almost like an old age home for people with potential for violence such as this. Comfort, but limited freedoms and supervision.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    So attmpted murder deserves no more than 8 years of incarceration?

    edit: I couldnt get the video to play either.
  • foodboy
    foodboy Posts: 988
    lock him up. too dangerous to be out again. at some point good possibility he will convince himself he doesn't need meds and will do something horrific again. there is no real lasting treatment at this time.
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

    I never said his breakdown was CAUSED by repeated rejection- I said it was a contributor to his hostility (he said so himself).

    Let me ask you: are you confident that this guy can manage the aspects of his life to be safe within society? If there is a shadow of doubt and somebody might get hurt or killed because he cannot function... then that is taking a pretty big risk.

    I guess I'm thinking of an environment almost like an old age home for people with potential for violence such as this. Comfort, but limited freedoms and supervision.

    fair enough. I misinterpreted what you meant.

    no, I'm not confident. I think he should be free, but still monitored and tested regularly to make sure he's still mentally sound. No different than a person who has liver/kidney issues to get dialysis daily. I don't see any other way around it. To me that's a requirement of their freedom. Same with Vince Li. If the guy has the CHOICE to make on his own to go off his meds, that's like giving the guy a gun and pointing out the target.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    Last-12-Exit wrote:
    So attmpted murder deserves no more than 8 years of incarceration?

    edit: I couldnt get the video to play either.

    not criminally responsible. had it been a person who could distinguish right from wrong, I would hope that would get more than that. But we're talking about Canada's penal system. He might be given a Burger King coupon and told "now, Jimmy, don't do that again".
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • 10ctoronto
    10ctoronto Posts: 49
    You can zombiefy him with anti-psychotic meds but you would have to monitor him 24/7 because these medications are not always effective and there is some trial and error and "pooping out" of these types of drugs. Might be safer to put him on an iceberg... he is conveniently located in Canada. lol.
  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478
    Sounds like the system is doing what it what designed to do, rehabilitate.
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    dignin wrote:
    Sounds like the system is doing what it what designed to do, rehabilitate.

    correct
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    dignin wrote:
    Sounds like the system is doing what it what designed to do, rehabilitate.

    correct

    To a point.

    In this particular case, we have managed to establish a sense of normalcy and hold the OCD and paranoia at bay. But there has been no 'cure' here... there has only been 'management'.

    With this said, I'm not sure granting portions of unsupervised freedom is wise. While it might work well for the mentally ill person, this comes at the risk of potentially placing innocent people in harm's way. This is not a gamble I'm in favour of. As I said before, I guess I would advocate for an institution much like a retirement home: comfort, assistance, and supervised outings.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,671
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    dignin wrote:
    Sounds like the system is doing what it what designed to do, rehabilitate.

    correct

    To a point.

    In this particular case, we have managed to establish a sense of normalcy and hold the OCD and paranoia at bay. But there has been no 'cure' here... there has only been 'management'.

    With this said, I'm not sure granting portions of unsupervised freedom is wise. While it might work well for the mentally ill person, this comes at the risk of potentially placing innocent people in harm's way. This is not a gamble I'm in favour of. As I said before, I guess I would advocate for an institution much like a retirement home: comfort, assistance, and supervised outings.

    ^^^ A very reasonable suggestion.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • lcusick
    lcusick Posts: 310
    The person should have to live in a group home where it is monitored daily that he is taking his meds. If he stops taking his meds, it should be reported a.s.a.p. If he goes off his meds, he may repeat the same crime and will be dangerous to others. He should not be released to manage his care on his own. I teach mentally ill children and repeatidly they stop taking their meds. They feel better and think they do not need them anymore, or they cannot stand the side affects of the meds and stop taking them, thinking they can manage the illness themselves. Two weeks ago, I was attacked by one of my students, (6' 2'" and I am 4' 11") because he stole an IPAD out of my classroom and I held him accountable for doing so. This provoked him and he attacked me. I took a two week paid leave of absence while the school removed him from my classroom. Turns out (he is 18) he stopped taking his meds six months ago. There is no cure for mental illness, it has to be managed daily, severe mental illness cannot be managed daily by the one person alone- they are too sick. In my 29 years of experience of working with serious mentally ill, I get extremely frustrated by the lack of resources for these people. You are s.o.l. if you do not have responsible family members willing to help you manage your illness. Money simply is not always there to keep someone in a group home etc. That is why there is a ton of homeless mentally ill people wandering the streets unmedicated. My opinion this person the OP is talking about most likely will go off his meds and be dangerous again.
  • even flow - question mark
    even flow - question mark Posts: 1,568
    If you need meds to help you cope with being a happy, productive person in society, they should just have an island or home for people like that, so I'm not having to deal with them on a daily basis.


    My friends and I laugh at the American feeds on t.v. and their commercials..."if your one set of meds have you down, (don't get off them and get a real life with real friends), just try this med, with the med you are already on and we have testimonials from some of the users...........cue in the side effects. NICE!

    The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08

  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    even flow - question mark wrote:
    If you need meds to help you cope with being a happy, productive person in society, they should just have an island or home for people like that, so I'm not having to deal with them on a daily basis.


    My friends and I laugh at the American feeds on t.v. and their commercials..."if your one set of meds have you down, (don't get off them and get a real life with real friends), just try this med, with the med you are already on and we have testimonials from some of the users...........cue in the side effects. NICE!

    We are a pill popping nation! :fp: And I love them :lol:
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,618
    even flow - question mark wrote:
    If you need meds to help you cope with being a happy, productive person in society, they should just have an island or home for people like that, so I'm not having to deal with them on a daily basis.


    My friends and I laugh at the American feeds on t.v. and their commercials..."if your one set of meds have you down, (don't get off them and get a real life with real friends), just try this med, with the med you are already on and we have testimonials from some of the users...........cue in the side effects. NICE!

    Maybe you were just in a cranky mood or being flippant when you wrote this, but the thread is about debilitating mental illness, not just someone who is "down". But if that is how you feel about people with mental illness, maybe you should be the one going to an island? Then you wouldn't have to deal with it.
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    badbrains wrote:
    even flow - question mark wrote:
    If you need meds to help you cope with being a happy, productive person in society, they should just have an island or home for people like that, so I'm not having to deal with them on a daily basis.


    My friends and I laugh at the American feeds on t.v. and their commercials..."if your one set of meds have you down, (don't get off them and get a real life with real friends), just try this med, with the med you are already on and we have testimonials from some of the users...........cue in the side effects. NICE!

    We are a pill popping nation! :fp: And I love them :lol:

    Have you ever listened to the scroll of potential side effects?

    Holy crap!
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • even flow - question mark
    even flow - question mark Posts: 1,568
    Go Beavers wrote:
    even flow - question mark wrote:
    If you need meds to help you cope with being a happy, productive person in society, they should just have an island or home for people like that, so I'm not having to deal with them on a daily basis.


    My friends and I laugh at the American feeds on t.v. and their commercials..."if your one set of meds have you down, (don't get off them and get a real life with real friends), just try this med, with the med you are already on and we have testimonials from some of the users...........cue in the side effects. NICE!

    Maybe you were just in a cranky mood or being flippant when you wrote this, but the thread is about debilitating mental illness, not just someone who is "down". But if that is how you feel about people with mental illness, maybe you should be the one going to an island? Then you wouldn't have to deal with it.


    Ooops, my bad. People who have mental illness and have voices telling them to kill, should not be in society. Cutting off a head of a sleeping passenger on a bus, the example from one story in this thread about the lady being stabbed.....just because. You may want them in your world, but not me. Meds or no meds.

    The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08

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