Why are the last notes of the album delivered by BoB? I'd rather hear Mike's guitar, or Eddie's voice. I do love the album, was just turned off by hearing that terrible outro by someone not even in the band.
Love the album, but yeah, that REALLY is a terrible fucking outro. It was awful at Wrigley, and it sucks on the album too. Why not at least just use a real piano????
The only thing I didn't like about the outro was the fade out. I love the keys, and I don't care "who gets the play the last note" on the album.
But the song was strong enough that it didn't need a fade, just play the last note and end it.
But again....this is coming from someone who loves FD.
I actually just think this "hater" label is really misguided and unfair. So some people think, for various reasons, that the band needs a change from BoB. All of a sudden they are all full of hate??? I just think it's a legitimate opinion. I don't think hate even comes into it. I mean come on.
I think it's only a legitimate opinion if they know exactly what he is and isn't responsible for.
I guess, but I think plenty of people DO have a pretty good idea of what he is or isn't responsible for. It's not like it's an unanswerable riddle.... I.e. it's pretty easy to know if you like or dislike the way the album is mastered and mixed, pretty easy to recognize a pattern in his work, and pretty easy to listen to or read interviews where BoB's influence is made fairly clear.
You can make assumptions about what he's to blame for, but it's still only guesses and they have to have discussion about how they want their albums to unravel before they work on them.
What else has been brought up besides him urging them to include SBM? Still, he's only making recommendations and the band has the final stamp.
If you don't think LB is mixed really well, I don't know what to tell you. You can hear each instrument clearly and I'm not hearing any harshness that was present in S/T and Backspacer. And this is all from a crummy stream. This album should sound amazing when we get physical copies and lossless formats.
I don't think anybody would be complaining about who plays the last note, if the last song was quality. Much like the way I don't think people would be complaining about BOb if they dig the album as a whole. I'm glad they tried to change up FD and not end this album with a song quite a bit like the closer from the last album, but the execution is pretty weak. Better off closing with Yellow Moon, imo, or moving Pendulum to the closing spot.
Yeah, not crazy about it (his production). As a whole I think the album is better than Backspacer on first listen, but there is definitely too much of BoB around it. The schmaltz of Sirens, the schmaltz of Future Days, the Train-esque breakdown/rearrangement of Sleeping By Myself (which is one of the, if not the, favorite song of mine from Uke Songs), and the whee-oo-whee-oooh-whee space sounds on Lightning Bolt... that's a good song, I don't know why someone thought it needed cheesy synth sounds on it for no reason. Would have been fine without them.
I agree with many of the criticisms you have written, but I disagree with the Lightning Bolt synth criticism. Lightning Bolt (the song) sounds very "Who-ish" to me and I feel the synth sound they have on that prechorus part goes really well with it. Pete Townshend embraced synths and I feel that if they're done right they can contribute something cool. The synth part on the studio version was one of the things that made me like the song (I wasn't too impressed by the live version).
I agree with that. And I think the live performance of LB at Wrigley was just them playing it for the first time - hadn't worked the kinks out yet. I think it will be awesome live once they're more used to playing it.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think it's only a legitimate opinion if they know exactly what he is and isn't responsible for.
I guess, but I think plenty of people DO have a pretty good idea of what he is or isn't responsible for. It's not like it's an unanswerable riddle.... I.e. it's pretty easy to know if you like or dislike the way the album is mastered and mixed, pretty easy to recognize a pattern in his work, and pretty easy to listen to or read interviews where BoB's influence is made fairly clear.
You can make assumptions about what he's to blame for, but it's still only guesses and they have to have discussion about how they want their albums to unravel before they work on them.
What else has been brought up besides him urging them to include SBM? Still, he's only making recommendations and the band has the final stamp.
If you don't think LB is mixed really well, I don't know what to tell you. You can hear each instrument clearly and I'm not hearing any harshness that was present in S/T and Backspacer. And this is all from a crummy stream. This album should sound amazing when we get physical copies and lossless formats.
I don't think anybody would be complaining about who plays the last note, if the last song was quality. Much like the way I don't think people would be complaining about BOb if they dig the album as a whole. I'm glad they tried to change up FD and not end this album with a song quite a bit like the closer from the last album, but the execution is pretty weak. Better off closing with Yellow Moon, imo, or moving Pendulum to the closing spot.
Well I REALLY dig the album as a whole (but am not a fan of the keyboard outro), do think that LB is mixed and mastered well (not amazing, but good) - I am just not ready to let Backspacer drop - it was a fucking DISASTER - and SBM and Future Days are pretty bad. So I don't think I should be expected to just forget about that. I hope that PJ goes with a different producer next album. They just need to switch things up, even though I love LB. Nothing wrong or hateful about that.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
After 5 or 6 listens this album is a solid B+ for me. Was expecting less so I'm happy. With that said BOB is a big reason why this is not a truly great album. SBM has no business here. Of the Earth leading into Yellow Moon as the closer would have been epic and fit the albums rough theme a lot better. Sorry but Future Days is awful, I'd have to put a large amount of that on Brendan since he plays on the song more than any other member. Lighting Bolt the song never takes off at the end like I was hoping for. Don't know if that was BOB but it's a bummer. Other than that the album is solid but could have been great with a few tweaks.
I don't like SBM (on this album) or FD, but I'm totally okay with that. Even on No Code, arguably my favorite PJ album, there is a song that I pretty much can't stand and feel like I have to suffer through it (I'm Open), but I still give the album an A++. One or two songs that I don't really go for is basically nothing to me, especially when they are the last two of the album, so don't interfere with everything that I love. Would it be even better if they were replaced by songs that I love? Of course. And that's why BoB should be replaced.... anything that's wrong with LB seems to largely be accredited to his influence.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't like SBM (on this album) or FD, but I'm totally okay with that. Even on No Code, arguably my favorite PJ album, there is a song that I pretty much can't stand and feel like I have to suffer through it (I'm Open), but I still give the album an A++. One or two songs that aren't good is basically nothing to me, especially when they are the last two of the album, so don't interfere with everything that I love. Would it be even better if they were replaced by songs that I love? Of course. But whatever. S'alright. :P
I pretty much agree with this. Well, not your dislike of FD. I think SBM sounds just slightly out of place here. That said...I really like the full band version. I don't see myself skipping it. I DO see myself skipping Let the Records play on occasion....but then again....I see myself seeking it out too.
As for I'm Open...I love that song, but I get what you are saying. Sometimes you just want a "flow" of particular songs.
An album should be a representation of what they did during those sessions, tho. Some will be good, some will be bad. They cant have 12 versions of MYM and make a complete album. They need a mix of songs, and not every person will feel every song every single time.
I don't have time to thumb through this whole thread right now but for my two cents everything that Last-12-exit, Hugh Freaking Dillon and october22 said on page one is correct. I agree with that.
I didn't even know that there were Brendan O'brien haters
Still don't understand all the fuss,..
If he works so much with Pearl Jam it must mean that they like him, and trust him.
He was part of the albuns he worked on.. any doubt on that? He is a Producer and, in my humble opinion, a good one.
But you have all the right not too like him.
It's just that, in my opinion, you can't hate his choices alone.. becouse it's everyone's choice: Eddie, Matt, Jeff, Stone, Brendan, Mike, sound engineers., mixing engineers, mastering engineers, etc...
If you don't like a particular album or a song it's not fair to blame one man alobe, or is it? Specially in Pearl Jam...
I was just listening to Stone Temple Pilots' No.4. Brilliant album. Produced by Brenda O'Brien. Good for him. Then I started to flip through the cd booklet.
He inserted himself on nearly every fucking track, playing keys, percussion, singing BACK UP. Jesus, this guy needs to start his own band for shit's sake. I've never heard of any producer putting themselves on the finished product. NEVER.
it's just such an odd thing to do. and I can only surmise that it's ego-driven.
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I was just listening to Stone Temple Pilots' No.4. Brilliant album. Produced by Brenda O'Brien. Good for him. Then I started to flip through the cd booklet.
He inserted himself on nearly every fucking track, playing keys, percussion, singing BACK UP. Jesus, this guy needs to start his own band for shit's sake. I've never heard of any producer putting themselves on the finished product. NEVER.
it's just such an odd thing to do. and I can only surmise that it's ego-driven.
Im guessing he doesn't insert himself. STP doesn't have a keyboard player, their drummer is nothing special or maybe they wanted to do a live take.
I don't know of a ton of producers that are really great at playing multiple instruments, but it's happened a gob throughout the history of rock.
Dudes an ace guitar/keys player and has played bass on albums, why not use him in a pinch?
All this bullshit from one comment taken out of context.
. I've never heard of any producer putting themselves on the finished product. NEVER.
it's just such an odd thing to do. and I can only surmise that it's ego-driven.
Sorry, but you are just way wrong there.
Let's start with the most famous rock band of all time. Beatles. George Martin played Piano on several tracks, and that was in a band with 2 very competent keyboard players.
There are 80 bajillion other records where the producer played some, a couple, or all of the instruments.
Hell go back to Ten. Listen to Black. There is very noticeable piano. who played it? the producer. and that was Rick Parashar, pre- B O'B.
It's the way it's done, quite often. Not always. But often. It's part of a collaborative process, which can be a beautiful thing by the way.
Some producers can't play anything. Some can do elaborate orchestra scores. Some can just freaking play everything.
All this bullshit from one comment taken out of context.
If only it were this. People have been griping about the O'Brien effect on Pearl Jam's music for a long time. As a quick example, here's post of mine back from April of 2012 pasted below. It simply isn't about a quote taken out of context or anything. It's about hearing foreign elements in a band's music, a heavy handed producer and what many view as a negative impact on the music of our favorite band.I could go into my post history or others' and dig up more and older O'Brien criticism, but the point is that it's a fact that this isn't about a quote and people had their grievances for quite some time.
Re: Do You Still Listen To Backspacer?
Postby Soulfire42 » 23 Apr 2012 23:03
No, I don't. I just don't really feel any big inclination to ever play the songs from that album, especially when I have so many other (and to my ears, mind and heart) superior options to choose from when it comes to Pearl Jam's catalog. Way too much Brendan O'Brien audible on Backspacer.
I was just listening to Stone Temple Pilots' No.4. Brilliant album. Produced by Brenda O'Brien. Good for him. Then I started to flip through the cd booklet.
He inserted himself on nearly every fucking track, playing keys, percussion, singing BACK UP. Jesus, this guy needs to start his own band for shit's sake. I've never heard of any producer putting themselves on the finished product. NEVER.
it's just such an odd thing to do. and I can only surmise that it's ego-driven.
Im guessing he doesn't insert himself. STP doesn't have a keyboard player, their drummer is nothing special or maybe they wanted to do a live take.
I don't know of a ton of producers that are really great at playing multiple instruments, but it's happened a gob throughout the history of rock.
Dudes an ace guitar/keys player and has played bass on albums, why not use him in a pinch?
All this bullshit from one comment taken out of context.
well, I am a big physical media person. I read though all the liner notes of all my cd's. I have never noticed any other producer being involved in the playing of instruments. maybe it's not publicized, maybe I've just never noticed it. But I still find it odd.
what comment? I don't even know how this started.
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All this bullshit from one comment taken out of context.
If only it were this. People have been griping about the O'Brien effect on Pearl Jam's music for a long time. As a quick example, here's post of mine back from April of 2012 pasted below. It simply isn't about a quote taken out of context or anything. It's about hearing foreign elements in a band's music, a heavy handed producer and what many view as a negative impact on the music of our favorite band.I could go into my post history or others' and dig up more and older O'Brien criticism, but the point is that it's a fact that this isn't about a quote and people had their grievances for quite some time.
Re: Do You Still Listen To Backspacer?
Postby Soulfire42 » 23 Apr 2012 23:03
No, I don't. I just don't really feel any big inclination to ever play the songs from that album, especially when I have so many other (and to my ears, mind and heart) superior options to choose from when it comes to Pearl Jam's catalog. Way too much Brendan O'Brien audible on Backspacer.
I was mostly referring the the ego stuff with that comment.
There may be a few BS tracks that have out of the ordinary for PJ additions from BOb, but for the most part, it's a weak album b/c the songs are weak and the arrangements aren't interesting.
I never heard many complaints at all about Obrien until a few interviews popped up here recently. Not saying no one complained before, but there's definitely been a surge lately. Before BS, it was "we gotta get Obrien back so they can kick ass again" seemingly across the board. When we found out he was heading up affairs, a large portion of the fanbase was ecstatic.
I'd be all for them going a different route for the producer. There were several producers in a thread recently that I could totally get behind. I always thought it was cool that Zeppelin would change producers so people knew that they were responsible for sounding so kickass from album to album. If that ever happened, imo, it would show how in control they are of their music.
Bottom line, he wouldn't play on the albums if they didn't want him playing on the albums.
Producers frequently play on albums, the most famous of which are probably Brian Eno and Daniel Lanois on U2 albums.
That's said, "Lightning Bolt" is over-produced.
My Pearl Jam Road: 10/22/90 Seattle | 12/22/90 Seattle, Moore Theater | 9/29/92 Seattle, Magnusson Park, Drop in the Park | 9/5/93 The Gorge, with Neil Young and Blind Melon | 7/20/06 Portland, Arlene Schnitzer Concert Hall with Sleater-Kinney | 7/22/06 The Gorge, 10/21/06 Mountain View, Shoreline Ampitheatre, Bridge School Benefit | 9/21/09 Seattle | 9/22/09 Seattle | 9/26/09 Portland, OR | 7/14/2011 Eddie Vedder, Portland, OR | 11/29/13 Portland, OR
I was never a BOB hater, I love the production on Vs and Vitalogy, maybe my favorite two albums production-wise out there. He has a way of making every instrument important. Jeff Ament has a sound when produced by BOB unlike any other. The production on Lightning Bolt is definitely more produced sounding but it really sounds great. Like I said, no complaints here.
As I've written elsewhere in thread that always end up getting locked, I think that the band has developed a very bad relationship with O'Brien in a similar way to Bob Rock and Metallica. I'm not saying that Pearl Jam is fighting with O'Brien or anything of the sort. If anything, I'd say the opposite... that the relationship has grown far too comfortable and he is increasingly viewing himself as a member of the band. This has reached the point that he's closing out their albums, performing on stage with them (yes, I'm aware of past history), adding effects to their music that MANY people are finding "cheezy" and much more. When a producer starts behaving more and more as if they are the missing piece of a band's music and/or performances, I consider it a problematic relationship. I'm a little startled that more people aren't up in arms that Pearl Jam's latest album's song is literally started and the entire album is closed out by a person who is not a member of the actual band. That's weird and it's an unhealthy thing for the band if you ask me.
The stuff I am hating about Pearl Jam's latest offerings tend (not 100% exclusive) to involve things that seem to trace back to O'Brien. Whether it's a crippling song inclusion, a cheezy additional layer added into a song needlessly, or guitars lacking grit on some songs, it usually seems to trace back to this guy.
Has O'Brien always been a problem? Probably not. As the band and he grew more and more familiar and comfortable, I think the musically detrimental relationship evolved. It's reached the breaking point with fans like me though. In fact, I reached it on Backspacer. I held out hope after hearing Mind Your Manners and I had that hoped crushed under O'Brien's heel when he walked out on stage for Future Days and hammed it up with his cheez whiz.
The songs I'm liking from Pearl Jam these days are the ones that aren't blatantly plagued by O'Brien. That's not just me seeking reasons to dislike O'Brien or his additions or style. It's also not me just not liking soft songs or anything. It's me feeling audibly "raped" by a person who isn't in the band yet is contributing more to their albums than another guy (Boom) who actually tours with them and is often in publicity photos, etc. To be honest, I'd be fine if they let both Boom and O'Brien go.
At the very least I hope the band reflects on the fact that songs are getting chosen for their album by somebody who isn't in the band and he's also finishing out their albums with his own little solos. Something is wrong and I'm hoping they'll choose to work with another producer for their next album.
This record has me realizing that my favorite band is still in there somewhere and quite capable and I honestly wasn't sure of that anymore after Backspacer. Nonetheless, I also think this album has many crippling flaws that were blatantly the result of a producer with too much influence.
Just going to throw my two cents into the mix. I can see the problem with BoB after listening to the last gaslight anthem album. Handwritten was a decent album but over all felt way to polish, not the gritty hard rocking albums from the first three records, although American Slang was pushing closer to that radio sound. Anyway, feel the same about the last two PJ albums, a few touches and flourishes too many. At the end of the day it should be guitars, vocals, bass, drums. Period. I'm surprised they never tried Rick Rubin, that guy knows how to simplify and get to the bands soul. IMO
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Getaway - I like that I don't notice O'Brien. I like that he didn't fade the end of Getaway. I still hold a grudge about Life Wasted. I like how upfront Jeff's bass is in the mix.
Mind Your Manners - I like that the only thing that I notice about O'Brien's touch on this one is that the guitars lack some grit for the style of song it is. I again like hearing Jeff's bass in the mix.
My Father's Son - I'm annoyed that as a producer he didn't have them do something about the "island music" wtf moment in the song. I like what's going on with Jeff's bass yet again in the mix. This song isn't the only injection of some weird island music vibe in the midst of a song that seems out of place. My complaints about the first three songs are pretty minimal regarding O'Brien.
Sirens - ...and then Sirens. I'll start by saying that I like what comes across from Ed in this one from a vocal standpoint. The piano additions in this one are mostly tastefully done to me. I think it was made with an eye toward forcing it to be usable in soundtracks, etc. However, I'm bored of this song already and I think part of that is just the song itself but part of it is just how it's been polished into something meant to be so vanilla. O'Brien's cheez is present in this song, but it isn't as vulgar here as I find it elsewhere on this album.
Lightning Bolt - O'Brien starts to get pretty egregious here. O'Brien's contributions on the front end of the song give it some sort of Rocky or Eye of the Tiger vibe... basically like it's the intro to a soundtrack. I don't think it would have this same vibe at all in the beginning if it did not have O'Brien's cheezy playing. Then we get some silly Dr. Who woo-ooo sounds starting about 38 seconds into the song that have been added after the fact. I actually like the driving maracas or whatever that start at about 55 seconds in. I don't like the layer of solid tone guitar or whatever that is put atop the first little solo. I hate the tinkling keys O'Brien adds around 1:40 into the song. They greatly "wussify" the song. This is the sort of shit I think of when I see others saying things like "adult contemporary." These sorts of additions are bad news for Pearl Jam's music and sound. And as the song progresses we get another big stupid helping of Dr. Who woo-ooo sounds. I think this song starts getting crowded due to O'Brien's additions and I find myself losing Jeff in the mix as things go along. O'Brien fills in space in this song that doesn't need filled or that needs to be filled by the actual members of the band. Trust me, they're capable of it and the song wouldn't sound as "old" (as in adult contemporary) if O'Brien wasn't so busy trying to squeeze himself and little sounds into every nook of this song. I also don't think that the banging trashcan sound is very necessary at the end, but that's probably a Matt choice. Then with all this build... we get a fade out? Grrr.
Infallible - This one is a bit of an oddity overall. There's some added sounds in here that I think would be better replaced by other things the band can do. Again, we get some of that island music vibe coming in at 3:05 into the song that seems rather odd. There's also background vocal things going on that don't seem like Pearl Jam to me. They seem like they were coached a little too hard to do something like that, but I'm only speculating. There's a few too many pops and clicks as we head into the fade too.
Pendulum - I like that this song was allowed breathing room and that it has tons of atmosphere. The guitars haven't been cleaned to utter perfection and they sound better for it. Around 1:43 when Eddie sings "agoooooooooo" it sounds like something went wrong in the production phase on his voice. Absolutely love the acoustic guitar brought to the foreground as the "Ah ah ah" bit starts. Jeff's bass lines are allowed to weave through this song perfectly. This song is allowed by O'Brien to have more space and layers that don't have to always be colliding or running over other ones like they do on songs like Lightning Bolt.
Swallowed Whole - Too many colliding layers in this one on the production end of things. The xylophones or whatever it is around 1:01 are unnecessary and clutter things up. We'll never hear them again besides on this album too. The "d-d-drown" around 1:13 sounds digitally fake. Even if it isn't, it needs another take of it. There are times in this song when stuff just gets too piled up. We get another strange musical moment in this one at around 2:21 where O'Brien's additions on the keys almost add a country atmosphere to the song for a moment before the song is reclaimed by the band. This one needed a couple layers peeled back off of it and less small flourishes by O'Brien.
Let the Records Play - A horrible thing happens in this song around 36 seconds in. As we get past the half way mark on this album it increasingly seems that O'Brien can't stand not hearing himself on a song after about 30 seconds and makes sure he's on it one way another. The song goes from full swagger to neutered sitcom music in a flash and O'Brien's contributions coincide with that moment again. Then we get back to the swagger for awhile before we cheez the fuck out again. Oh what could have been... instead I find myself needing to swallow some of my puke as O'Brien's cheez manifests. Thankfully the song closes out strong, but it also gets faded to try and make way for another lame idea of O'Brien's.
Sleeping By Myself - ...yep, Sleeping By Myself. It wreaks of that dreaded "adult contemporary" label. Not only that, it's a solo song contorted to be on this album because O'Brien wanted it. It sounds like a commercial jingle that you'd hear around Christmas time other than the lyrics. This is another stinker that wreaks of O'Brien and we have to also realize that it knocked off some other potential new track. Fuck you, O'Brien.
Yellow Moon - A hint of that weird island music returns on this one... like Jimmy Buffett was walking around the studio and I honestly don't know where it is coming from. I'd not be the least bit surprised to read that either one of the band members had been delving into that genre or O'Brien's screwed with it in his past and introduced it into Lightning Bolt, but it's strangely present in a few spots on this album. Overall, I'm okay with this song as far as O'Brien's concerned. He's there, but not vulgar on the song.
Future Days - And then we get O'Brien at his most vulgar and egregious on this album. To close out a Pearl Jam album with its final song we get an O'Brien intro. It's not brilliant and it's not necessary. Then we get the funky island music shit reintroduced again into this song around 56 seconds in. I'm inclined to think this is O'Brien's influence, but I honestly don't have a good sense of where it is coming from. Then we get a weird transition from that island music vibe into a country or folk music vibe around 1:14. It's that weepy kind of music that seems at odds to the trembling island sound just seconds earlier. 1:38 that light island music style guitar creeps back. What the hell is going on? Then we get the organ sound, trembling island music sound, keys, then some strings before looping around, etc.... in other words, this song is a bit of a clusterfuck. Especially on this particular album. Oh but wait, then we get the last finale of the album and guess who is missing from it? That's right... Pearl Jam is missing from it. Instead we get an O'Brien outro to the album from 3:58 - 4:22 on the final song of the album. I don't understand how anyone could think this was a good thing or that there isn't a problem that has developed with having O'Brien as Pearl Jam's producer. This song is the most obvious example of Eddie and the O'Briens making a song rather than Pearl Jam making a song.
Now on a more macro level... this album doesn't flow very well after the first few songs. The transition from My Father's Son into Sirens is brutal. The end of the album is a bit tough to sit through and is rather flat or dead on arrival. The final three songs limp toward the conclusion and two of three are dripping with O'Brien's cheez. I like Yellow Moon well enough, but it's placement is bad between the songs where it is located. I think O'Brien's done some good work getting everyone's instruments and Eddie's voice sounding clear. I think O'Brien's done a particularly good job with Jeff's sound on this album. Where this album falters most is when O'Brien wants the spotlight and where there are cheezy bits either thrown into the middle of songs or layered over the top of them.
I think I've pointed out plenty of reasons why I think it is way past time for Pearl Jam to look for a new producer they are not so familiar with and comfortable with. They need to be challenged in some new ways and need to be working with somebody who doesn't even remotely view himself as their missing band member... ever.
So I see this is an "Island record." Cant wait to throw this thing on at the beach! :P
Go listen to the points where I make such comments and I think you'll find my comments oddly accurate. Does the album as a whole sound like island music? Not remotely. But seriously go have a listen at the times I indicate and I think you'll get it.
So I see this is an "Island record." Cant wait to throw this thing on at the beach! :P
Go listen to the points where I make such comments and I think you'll find my comments oddly accurate. Does the album as a whole sound like island music? Not remotely. But seriously go have a listen at the times I indicate and I think you'll get it.
I was just messing with ya...I havent even heard it yet.
I do love the steel drums though. :P
Comments
The only thing I didn't like about the outro was the fade out. I love the keys, and I don't care "who gets the play the last note" on the album.
But the song was strong enough that it didn't need a fade, just play the last note and end it.
But again....this is coming from someone who loves FD.
Nuclear fission
You can make assumptions about what he's to blame for, but it's still only guesses and they have to have discussion about how they want their albums to unravel before they work on them.
What else has been brought up besides him urging them to include SBM? Still, he's only making recommendations and the band has the final stamp.
If you don't think LB is mixed really well, I don't know what to tell you. You can hear each instrument clearly and I'm not hearing any harshness that was present in S/T and Backspacer. And this is all from a crummy stream. This album should sound amazing when we get physical copies and lossless formats.
I don't think anybody would be complaining about who plays the last note, if the last song was quality. Much like the way I don't think people would be complaining about BOb if they dig the album as a whole. I'm glad they tried to change up FD and not end this album with a song quite a bit like the closer from the last album, but the execution is pretty weak. Better off closing with Yellow Moon, imo, or moving Pendulum to the closing spot.
I pretty much agree with this. Well, not your dislike of FD. I think SBM sounds just slightly out of place here. That said...I really like the full band version. I don't see myself skipping it. I DO see myself skipping Let the Records play on occasion....but then again....I see myself seeking it out too.
As for I'm Open...I love that song, but I get what you are saying. Sometimes you just want a "flow" of particular songs.
An album should be a representation of what they did during those sessions, tho. Some will be good, some will be bad. They cant have 12 versions of MYM and make a complete album. They need a mix of songs, and not every person will feel every song every single time.
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Wind this thing up.
Exactly.
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I hated the Wrigley version, but am still split on the album version.
He inserted himself on nearly every fucking track, playing keys, percussion, singing BACK UP. Jesus, this guy needs to start his own band for shit's sake. I've never heard of any producer putting themselves on the finished product. NEVER.
it's just such an odd thing to do. and I can only surmise that it's ego-driven.
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Im guessing he doesn't insert himself. STP doesn't have a keyboard player, their drummer is nothing special or maybe they wanted to do a live take.
I don't know of a ton of producers that are really great at playing multiple instruments, but it's happened a gob throughout the history of rock.
Dudes an ace guitar/keys player and has played bass on albums, why not use him in a pinch?
All this bullshit from one comment taken out of context.
Sorry, but you are just way wrong there.
Let's start with the most famous rock band of all time. Beatles. George Martin played Piano on several tracks, and that was in a band with 2 very competent keyboard players.
There are 80 bajillion other records where the producer played some, a couple, or all of the instruments.
Hell go back to Ten. Listen to Black. There is very noticeable piano. who played it? the producer. and that was Rick Parashar, pre- B O'B.
It's the way it's done, quite often. Not always. But often. It's part of a collaborative process, which can be a beautiful thing by the way.
Some producers can't play anything. Some can do elaborate orchestra scores. Some can just freaking play everything.
cheers
If only it were this. People have been griping about the O'Brien effect on Pearl Jam's music for a long time. As a quick example, here's post of mine back from April of 2012 pasted below. It simply isn't about a quote taken out of context or anything. It's about hearing foreign elements in a band's music, a heavy handed producer and what many view as a negative impact on the music of our favorite band.I could go into my post history or others' and dig up more and older O'Brien criticism, but the point is that it's a fact that this isn't about a quote and people had their grievances for quite some time.
Re: Do You Still Listen To Backspacer?
Postby Soulfire42 » 23 Apr 2012 23:03
No, I don't. I just don't really feel any big inclination to ever play the songs from that album, especially when I have so many other (and to my ears, mind and heart) superior options to choose from when it comes to Pearl Jam's catalog. Way too much Brendan O'Brien audible on Backspacer.
well, I am a big physical media person. I read though all the liner notes of all my cd's. I have never noticed any other producer being involved in the playing of instruments. maybe it's not publicized, maybe I've just never noticed it. But I still find it odd.
what comment? I don't even know how this started.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I was mostly referring the the ego stuff with that comment.
There may be a few BS tracks that have out of the ordinary for PJ additions from BOb, but for the most part, it's a weak album b/c the songs are weak and the arrangements aren't interesting.
I never heard many complaints at all about Obrien until a few interviews popped up here recently. Not saying no one complained before, but there's definitely been a surge lately. Before BS, it was "we gotta get Obrien back so they can kick ass again" seemingly across the board. When we found out he was heading up affairs, a large portion of the fanbase was ecstatic.
I'd be all for them going a different route for the producer. There were several producers in a thread recently that I could totally get behind. I always thought it was cool that Zeppelin would change producers so people knew that they were responsible for sounding so kickass from album to album. If that ever happened, imo, it would show how in control they are of their music.
Bottom line, he wouldn't play on the albums if they didn't want him playing on the albums.
That's said, "Lightning Bolt" is over-produced.
Curious...Which other albums do you think are over-produced?
The stuff I am hating about Pearl Jam's latest offerings tend (not 100% exclusive) to involve things that seem to trace back to O'Brien. Whether it's a crippling song inclusion, a cheezy additional layer added into a song needlessly, or guitars lacking grit on some songs, it usually seems to trace back to this guy.
Has O'Brien always been a problem? Probably not. As the band and he grew more and more familiar and comfortable, I think the musically detrimental relationship evolved. It's reached the breaking point with fans like me though. In fact, I reached it on Backspacer. I held out hope after hearing Mind Your Manners and I had that hoped crushed under O'Brien's heel when he walked out on stage for Future Days and hammed it up with his cheez whiz.
The songs I'm liking from Pearl Jam these days are the ones that aren't blatantly plagued by O'Brien. That's not just me seeking reasons to dislike O'Brien or his additions or style. It's also not me just not liking soft songs or anything. It's me feeling audibly "raped" by a person who isn't in the band yet is contributing more to their albums than another guy (Boom) who actually tours with them and is often in publicity photos, etc. To be honest, I'd be fine if they let both Boom and O'Brien go.
At the very least I hope the band reflects on the fact that songs are getting chosen for their album by somebody who isn't in the band and he's also finishing out their albums with his own little solos. Something is wrong and I'm hoping they'll choose to work with another producer for their next album.
This record has me realizing that my favorite band is still in there somewhere and quite capable and I honestly wasn't sure of that anymore after Backspacer. Nonetheless, I also think this album has many crippling flaws that were blatantly the result of a producer with too much influence.
Mind Your Manners - I like that the only thing that I notice about O'Brien's touch on this one is that the guitars lack some grit for the style of song it is. I again like hearing Jeff's bass in the mix.
My Father's Son - I'm annoyed that as a producer he didn't have them do something about the "island music" wtf moment in the song. I like what's going on with Jeff's bass yet again in the mix. This song isn't the only injection of some weird island music vibe in the midst of a song that seems out of place. My complaints about the first three songs are pretty minimal regarding O'Brien.
Sirens - ...and then Sirens. I'll start by saying that I like what comes across from Ed in this one from a vocal standpoint. The piano additions in this one are mostly tastefully done to me. I think it was made with an eye toward forcing it to be usable in soundtracks, etc. However, I'm bored of this song already and I think part of that is just the song itself but part of it is just how it's been polished into something meant to be so vanilla. O'Brien's cheez is present in this song, but it isn't as vulgar here as I find it elsewhere on this album.
Lightning Bolt - O'Brien starts to get pretty egregious here. O'Brien's contributions on the front end of the song give it some sort of Rocky or Eye of the Tiger vibe... basically like it's the intro to a soundtrack. I don't think it would have this same vibe at all in the beginning if it did not have O'Brien's cheezy playing. Then we get some silly Dr. Who woo-ooo sounds starting about 38 seconds into the song that have been added after the fact. I actually like the driving maracas or whatever that start at about 55 seconds in. I don't like the layer of solid tone guitar or whatever that is put atop the first little solo. I hate the tinkling keys O'Brien adds around 1:40 into the song. They greatly "wussify" the song. This is the sort of shit I think of when I see others saying things like "adult contemporary." These sorts of additions are bad news for Pearl Jam's music and sound. And as the song progresses we get another big stupid helping of Dr. Who woo-ooo sounds. I think this song starts getting crowded due to O'Brien's additions and I find myself losing Jeff in the mix as things go along. O'Brien fills in space in this song that doesn't need filled or that needs to be filled by the actual members of the band. Trust me, they're capable of it and the song wouldn't sound as "old" (as in adult contemporary) if O'Brien wasn't so busy trying to squeeze himself and little sounds into every nook of this song. I also don't think that the banging trashcan sound is very necessary at the end, but that's probably a Matt choice. Then with all this build... we get a fade out? Grrr.
Infallible - This one is a bit of an oddity overall. There's some added sounds in here that I think would be better replaced by other things the band can do. Again, we get some of that island music vibe coming in at 3:05 into the song that seems rather odd. There's also background vocal things going on that don't seem like Pearl Jam to me. They seem like they were coached a little too hard to do something like that, but I'm only speculating. There's a few too many pops and clicks as we head into the fade too.
Pendulum - I like that this song was allowed breathing room and that it has tons of atmosphere. The guitars haven't been cleaned to utter perfection and they sound better for it. Around 1:43 when Eddie sings "agoooooooooo" it sounds like something went wrong in the production phase on his voice. Absolutely love the acoustic guitar brought to the foreground as the "Ah ah ah" bit starts. Jeff's bass lines are allowed to weave through this song perfectly. This song is allowed by O'Brien to have more space and layers that don't have to always be colliding or running over other ones like they do on songs like Lightning Bolt.
Swallowed Whole - Too many colliding layers in this one on the production end of things. The xylophones or whatever it is around 1:01 are unnecessary and clutter things up. We'll never hear them again besides on this album too. The "d-d-drown" around 1:13 sounds digitally fake. Even if it isn't, it needs another take of it. There are times in this song when stuff just gets too piled up. We get another strange musical moment in this one at around 2:21 where O'Brien's additions on the keys almost add a country atmosphere to the song for a moment before the song is reclaimed by the band. This one needed a couple layers peeled back off of it and less small flourishes by O'Brien.
Let the Records Play - A horrible thing happens in this song around 36 seconds in. As we get past the half way mark on this album it increasingly seems that O'Brien can't stand not hearing himself on a song after about 30 seconds and makes sure he's on it one way another. The song goes from full swagger to neutered sitcom music in a flash and O'Brien's contributions coincide with that moment again. Then we get back to the swagger for awhile before we cheez the fuck out again. Oh what could have been... instead I find myself needing to swallow some of my puke as O'Brien's cheez manifests. Thankfully the song closes out strong, but it also gets faded to try and make way for another lame idea of O'Brien's.
Sleeping By Myself - ...yep, Sleeping By Myself. It wreaks of that dreaded "adult contemporary" label. Not only that, it's a solo song contorted to be on this album because O'Brien wanted it. It sounds like a commercial jingle that you'd hear around Christmas time other than the lyrics. This is another stinker that wreaks of O'Brien and we have to also realize that it knocked off some other potential new track. Fuck you, O'Brien.
Yellow Moon - A hint of that weird island music returns on this one... like Jimmy Buffett was walking around the studio and I honestly don't know where it is coming from. I'd not be the least bit surprised to read that either one of the band members had been delving into that genre or O'Brien's screwed with it in his past and introduced it into Lightning Bolt, but it's strangely present in a few spots on this album. Overall, I'm okay with this song as far as O'Brien's concerned. He's there, but not vulgar on the song.
Future Days - And then we get O'Brien at his most vulgar and egregious on this album. To close out a Pearl Jam album with its final song we get an O'Brien intro. It's not brilliant and it's not necessary. Then we get the funky island music shit reintroduced again into this song around 56 seconds in. I'm inclined to think this is O'Brien's influence, but I honestly don't have a good sense of where it is coming from. Then we get a weird transition from that island music vibe into a country or folk music vibe around 1:14. It's that weepy kind of music that seems at odds to the trembling island sound just seconds earlier. 1:38 that light island music style guitar creeps back. What the hell is going on? Then we get the organ sound, trembling island music sound, keys, then some strings before looping around, etc.... in other words, this song is a bit of a clusterfuck. Especially on this particular album. Oh but wait, then we get the last finale of the album and guess who is missing from it? That's right... Pearl Jam is missing from it. Instead we get an O'Brien outro to the album from 3:58 - 4:22 on the final song of the album. I don't understand how anyone could think this was a good thing or that there isn't a problem that has developed with having O'Brien as Pearl Jam's producer. This song is the most obvious example of Eddie and the O'Briens making a song rather than Pearl Jam making a song.
Now on a more macro level... this album doesn't flow very well after the first few songs. The transition from My Father's Son into Sirens is brutal. The end of the album is a bit tough to sit through and is rather flat or dead on arrival. The final three songs limp toward the conclusion and two of three are dripping with O'Brien's cheez. I like Yellow Moon well enough, but it's placement is bad between the songs where it is located. I think O'Brien's done some good work getting everyone's instruments and Eddie's voice sounding clear. I think O'Brien's done a particularly good job with Jeff's sound on this album. Where this album falters most is when O'Brien wants the spotlight and where there are cheezy bits either thrown into the middle of songs or layered over the top of them.
I think I've pointed out plenty of reasons why I think it is way past time for Pearl Jam to look for a new producer they are not so familiar with and comfortable with. They need to be challenged in some new ways and need to be working with somebody who doesn't even remotely view himself as their missing band member... ever.
MYM sounds awesome...
Future Days sounds like Bryan Adams...
Go listen to the points where I make such comments and I think you'll find my comments oddly accurate. Does the album as a whole sound like island music? Not remotely. But seriously go have a listen at the times I indicate and I think you'll get it.
I was just messing with ya...I havent even heard it yet.
I do love the steel drums though. :P
These songs are gonna sound epic live with only guitars, bass, drums and vocals.
And as an atheist, I say, "Amen, brother!" Haha
Get over it and don't listen to it if you don't like it. It's that simple.
http://www.last.fm/user/olivavu