If you're muslim you can leave, dead if not

Godfather. · September 2013

mickeyrat wrote:

The world would be so much better off without PEOPLE to continue to fuck shit up, believers or not.

:thumbup:

Godfather.

Hugh Freaking Dillon · September 2013

lukin2006 wrote:

Really ... Well I've already explained why because I think it's bullshit, it's scam ... Like most scams how many billions does it take in yearly and there is 0 proof of a God and so far all the EDUCATED people apparently can't deliver proof either ... Just what's in some book to keep the scam going.

As for understanding why people believe, again I've stated it's a comfort thing, we are likely the one species who imagines their own death and believing in a mystical place is a far more comforting thought than worm food.

I'm atheist. But I don't shove it down people's throats disrespectfully. Just something to think about.

PJ_Soul · September 2013

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

Really ... Well I've already explained why because I think it's bullshit, it's scam ... Like most scams how many billions does it take in yearly and there is 0 proof of a God and so far all the EDUCATED people apparently can't deliver proof either ... Just what's in some book to keep the scam going.

As for understanding why people believe, again I've stated it's a comfort thing, we are likely the one species who imagines their own death and believing in a mystical place is a far more comforting thought than worm food.

I'm atheist. But I don't shove it down people's throats disrespectfully. Just something to think about.

I feel that Atheists are stuck in a world where religion is a dominant factor. They are subjected to this religious world. So I can't say I blame some Atheists for feeling frustrated and shoving back a little. I feel that Atheists have religion shoved down their throats on a fairly regular basis and live in a world pretty much BUILT on religion, and watch actual POLITICIANS try and rule people WITH religion around the world (even in America!), and Atheists generally take it pretty fucking well, all things considered. A little disrespect might be warranted. Nobody's perfect, and I think it's reasonable that Atheists feel a level of frustration sometimes and express the frustration, maybe even lash out once in a while.... with words. Plus, so the fuck what if people are offended???? Does that even mean anything at all?? I don't really think so.

Hugh Freaking Dillon · September 2013

PJ_Soul wrote:

I feel that Atheists are stuck in a world where religion is a dominant factor. They are subjected to this religious world. So I can't say I blame some Atheists for feeling frustrated and shoving back a little. I feel that Atheists have religion shoved down their throats on a fairly regular basis and live in a world pretty much BUILT on religion, and watch actual POLITICIANS try and rule people WITH religion around the world (even in America!), and Atheists generally take it pretty fucking well, all things considered. A little disrespect might be warranted. Nobody's perfect, and I think it's reasonable that Atheists feel a level of frustration sometimes and express the frustration, maybe even lash out once in a while.... with words. Plus, so the fuck what if people are offended???? Does that even mean anything at all?? I don't really think so.

a little disrespect is never warranted. people are brought up with religion, this is how they are taught, and they are taught it as if it's fact, not a possibility. just ask my brother; born again baptist, who I just had an argument of "fact vs faith" a few days ago. I posted something on my facebook page from the God facebook page (fucking funny) and he got all offended, saying it was "twisting the facts". I said "no facts in religion, bro, sorry, that's what the word faith means".

if you wish to be respected, then you must also treat others with respect. Have I ever been a dick to a christian for shoving their beliefs down my throat? just ask my wife, who is catholic. but I've learned the best way to deal with that is to just say "not for me" or fuck with them and say "I'm a Satanist" or some shit. But there's no real reason to be calling people names for their belief system.

I personally don't think atheists are oppressed or anything, not unless they allow themselves to be. I don't even really identify as an atheist anymore, as I realized a while back that identifying as something I'm NOT doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. that's like someone asking me what I do for a living and answering with "not a doctor".

PJ_Soul · September 2013

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I feel that Atheists are stuck in a world where religion is a dominant factor. They are subjected to this religious world. So I can't say I blame some Atheists for feeling frustrated and shoving back a little. I feel that Atheists have religion shoved down their throats on a fairly regular basis and live in a world pretty much BUILT on religion, and watch actual POLITICIANS try and rule people WITH religion around the world (even in America!), and Atheists generally take it pretty fucking well, all things considered. A little disrespect might be warranted. Nobody's perfect, and I think it's reasonable that Atheists feel a level of frustration sometimes and express the frustration, maybe even lash out once in a while.... with words. Plus, so the fuck what if people are offended???? Does that even mean anything at all?? I don't really think so.

a little disrespect is never warranted. people are brought up with religion, this is how they are taught, and they are taught it as if it's fact, not a possibility. just ask my brother; born again baptist, who I just had an argument of "fact vs faith" a few days ago. I posted something on my facebook page from the God facebook page (fucking funny) and he got all offended, saying it was "twisting the facts". I said "no facts in religion, bro, sorry, that's what the word faith means".

if you wish to be respected, then you must also treat others with respect. Have I ever been a dick to a christian for shoving their beliefs down my throat? just ask my wife, who is catholic. but I've learned the best way to deal with that is to just say "not for me" or fuck with them and say "I'm a Satanist" or some shit. But there's no real reason to be calling people names for their belief system.

I personally don't think atheists are oppressed or anything, not unless they allow themselves to be. I don't even really identify as an atheist anymore, as I realized a while back that identifying as something I'm NOT doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. that's like someone asking me what I do for a living and answering with "not a doctor".

I've never been a dick to someone for being religious either, but having an opinion that entails not respecting religion is not the same a disrespecting a person. I mean, if Lukin2006 thinks that people who believe in God are idiot, I think he has a right to that opinion. It's not like he's saying "you are a fucking idiot" so some religious person's face, or anyone in particular. But if he feels that organized religions are bullshit scams, then that seems like an honest opinion to me, and if it happens to offend people, that is their problem, not his.

PJ_Soul · September 2013

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I feel that Atheists are stuck in a world where religion is a dominant factor. They are subjected to this religious world. So I can't say I blame some Atheists for feeling frustrated and shoving back a little. I feel that Atheists have religion shoved down their throats on a fairly regular basis and live in a world pretty much BUILT on religion, and watch actual POLITICIANS try and rule people WITH religion around the world (even in America!), and Atheists generally take it pretty fucking well, all things considered. A little disrespect might be warranted. Nobody's perfect, and I think it's reasonable that Atheists feel a level of frustration sometimes and express the frustration, maybe even lash out once in a while.... with words. Plus, so the fuck what if people are offended???? Does that even mean anything at all?? I don't really think so.

a little disrespect is never warranted. people are brought up with religion, this is how they are taught, and they are taught it as if it's fact, not a possibility. just ask my brother; born again baptist, who I just had an argument of "fact vs faith" a few days ago. I posted something on my facebook page from the God facebook page (fucking funny) and he got all offended, saying it was "twisting the facts". I said "no facts in religion, bro, sorry, that's what the word faith means".

if you wish to be respected, then you must also treat others with respect. Have I ever been a dick to a christian for shoving their beliefs down my throat? just ask my wife, who is catholic. but I've learned the best way to deal with that is to just say "not for me" or fuck with them and say "I'm a Satanist" or some shit. But there's no real reason to be calling people names for their belief system.

I personally don't think atheists are oppressed or anything, not unless they allow themselves to be. I don't even really identify as an atheist anymore, as I realized a while back that identifying as something I'm NOT doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. that's like someone asking me what I do for a living and answering with "not a doctor".

Oh, and as for your last comment.... Atheism is something, not NOT something. I would say that Atheism is a religion, just not an organized one. Do Atheists have proof that there is NOT a God? I don't think so. Therefore, Atheists need to have faith that there is NOT a God. That sounds like a belief system to me - one requiring faith - not just some void where something simply is not.

brianlux · September 2013

PJ_Soul wrote:

Oh, and as for your last comment.... Atheism is something, not NOT something. I would say that Atheism is a religion, just not an organized one. Do Atheists have proof that there is NOT a God? I don't think so. Therefore, Atheists need to have faith that there is NOT a God. That sounds like a belief system to me - one requiring faith - not just some void where something simply is not.

Interesting thought, PJ_Soul! I'm wracking my brain for who it was I read recently who used the term "non-theist". Hmmm- mighta been Henry Rollins. Anyway, the way it was worded it was like a non-theist needs no belief system or faith and yet there was certainly no lack of compassion in what they were saying. Damn! If I could just remember who said that I could find the quote. Maybe it was Jim Jarmusch.

Taken a little further, the idea appeals to me- that is, with enough "faith" in concrete things like the balance of nature or intangibles like love, one can get by quite well without a Faith. Lou Reed once said, "You need a busload of faith to get by," and I think this is what he was getting at there as well.

Hugh Freaking Dillon · September 2013

PJ_Soul wrote:

Oh, and as for your last comment.... Atheism is something, not NOT something. I would say that Atheism is a religion, just not an organized one. Do Atheists have proof that there is NOT a God? I don't think so. Therefore, Atheists need to have faith that there is NOT a God. That sounds like a belief system to me - one requiring faith - not just some void where something simply is not.

so the belief that a certain belief system is not for them is a belief system in itself? that sounds kinda stupid. I'd rather believe in something rather than believe in something I don't believe in.

so, if' I'm an accountant, am I an accountant, or a non-doctor?

PJ_Soul · September 2013

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Oh, and as for your last comment.... Atheism is something, not NOT something. I would say that Atheism is a religion, just not an organized one. Do Atheists have proof that there is NOT a God? I don't think so. Therefore, Atheists need to have faith that there is NOT a God. That sounds like a belief system to me - one requiring faith - not just some void where something simply is not.

so the belief that a certain belief system is not for them is a belief system in itself? that sounds kinda stupid. I'd rather believe in something rather than believe in something I don't believe in.

so, if' I'm an accountant, am I an accountant, or a non-doctor?

Atheists maintain faith that God doesn't exist in the face of an entire world's population that insists that he does. Those who believe in God maintain faith that God exists in the face of science and logic. The entire concept of religion relies on the fact that it is based on faith. That's what it's all about, really. How come faith is something to be admired in those who believe in God, but it's stupid for those who don't? Also, there are Atheists who are passive and Atheists who have more complex belief systems. Some are basically indifferent, some feel invested in their beliefs and weigh them against other beliefs. Sounds just like those who are religious to me. Atheism shapes people's world views (and even matters of the after life) just like non-Atheists' religions do.... I don't think that Atheism should be blown off like you are doing. As a practicing Atheist, I actually find it very dismissive.

lukin2006 · September 2013

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

Really ... Well I've already explained why because I think it's bullshit, it's scam ... Like most scams how many billions does it take in yearly and there is 0 proof of a God and so far all the EDUCATED people apparently can't deliver proof either ... Just what's in some book to keep the scam going.

As for understanding why people believe, again I've stated it's a comfort thing, we are likely the one species who imagines their own death and believing in a mystical place is a far more comforting thought than worm food.

I'm atheist. But I don't shove it down people's throats disrespectfully. Just something to think about.

and that's fine ... I don't like scams ... and I'm not shoving nothing down anyone's throat. But seriously most of us are introduced to religion when where young and impressionable ... why is that? easier to hook us and reel us in maybe. Some of us escape and realize that we are being sold bullshit. It's just a scam and like most scam's it involves money.

lukin2006 · September 2013

PJ_Soul wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I feel that Atheists are stuck in a world where religion is a dominant factor. They are subjected to this religious world. So I can't say I blame some Atheists for feeling frustrated and shoving back a little. I feel that Atheists have religion shoved down their throats on a fairly regular basis and live in a world pretty much BUILT on religion, and watch actual POLITICIANS try and rule people WITH religion around the world (even in America!), and Atheists generally take it pretty fucking well, all things considered. A little disrespect might be warranted. Nobody's perfect, and I think it's reasonable that Atheists feel a level of frustration sometimes and express the frustration, maybe even lash out once in a while.... with words. Plus, so the fuck what if people are offended???? Does that even mean anything at all?? I don't really think so.

a little disrespect is never warranted. people are brought up with religion, this is how they are taught, and they are taught it as if it's fact, not a possibility. just ask my brother; born again baptist, who I just had an argument of "fact vs faith" a few days ago. I posted something on my facebook page from the God facebook page (fucking funny) and he got all offended, saying it was "twisting the facts". I said "no facts in religion, bro, sorry, that's what the word faith means".

if you wish to be respected, then you must also treat others with respect. Have I ever been a dick to a christian for shoving their beliefs down my throat? just ask my wife, who is catholic. but I've learned the best way to deal with that is to just say "not for me" or fuck with them and say "I'm a Satanist" or some shit. But there's no real reason to be calling people names for their belief system.

I personally don't think atheists are oppressed or anything, not unless they allow themselves to be. I don't even really identify as an atheist anymore, as I realized a while back that identifying as something I'm NOT doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. that's like someone asking me what I do for a living and answering with "not a doctor".

I've never been a dick to someone for being religious either, but having an opinion that entails not respecting religion is not the same a disrespecting a person. I mean, if Lukin2006 thinks that people who believe in God are idiot, I think he has a right to that opinion. It's not like he's saying "you are a fucking idiot" so some religious person's face, or anyone in particular. But if he feels that organized religions are bullshit scams, then that seems like an honest opinion to me, and if it happens to offend people, that is their problem, not his.

Thank you ...

lukin2006 · September 2013

PJ_Soul wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I feel that Atheists are stuck in a world where religion is a dominant factor. They are subjected to this religious world. So I can't say I blame some Atheists for feeling frustrated and shoving back a little. I feel that Atheists have religion shoved down their throats on a fairly regular basis and live in a world pretty much BUILT on religion, and watch actual POLITICIANS try and rule people WITH religion around the world (even in America!), and Atheists generally take it pretty fucking well, all things considered. A little disrespect might be warranted. Nobody's perfect, and I think it's reasonable that Atheists feel a level of frustration sometimes and express the frustration, maybe even lash out once in a while.... with words. Plus, so the fuck what if people are offended???? Does that even mean anything at all?? I don't really think so.

a little disrespect is never warranted. people are brought up with religion, this is how they are taught, and they are taught it as if it's fact, not a possibility. just ask my brother; born again baptist, who I just had an argument of "fact vs faith" a few days ago. I posted something on my facebook page from the God facebook page (fucking funny) and he got all offended, saying it was "twisting the facts". I said "no facts in religion, bro, sorry, that's what the word faith means".

if you wish to be respected, then you must also treat others with respect. Have I ever been a dick to a christian for shoving their beliefs down my throat? just ask my wife, who is catholic. but I've learned the best way to deal with that is to just say "not for me" or fuck with them and say "I'm a Satanist" or some shit. But there's no real reason to be calling people names for their belief system.

I personally don't think atheists are oppressed or anything, not unless they allow themselves to be. I don't even really identify as an atheist anymore, as I realized a while back that identifying as something I'm NOT doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. that's like someone asking me what I do for a living and answering with "not a doctor".

Oh, and as for your last comment.... Atheism is something, not NOT something. I would say that Atheism is a religion, just not an organized one. Do Atheists have proof that there is NOT a God? I don't think so. Therefore, Atheists need to have faith that there is NOT a God. That sounds like a belief system to me - one requiring faith - not just some void where something simply is not.

Very well said. I don't think atheist have an official book? we need a book!!

PJ_Soul · September 2013

lukin2006 wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

a little disrespect is never warranted. people are brought up with religion, this is how they are taught, and they are taught it as if it's fact, not a possibility. just ask my brother; born again baptist, who I just had an argument of "fact vs faith" a few days ago. I posted something on my facebook page from the God facebook page (fucking funny) and he got all offended, saying it was "twisting the facts". I said "no facts in religion, bro, sorry, that's what the word faith means".

if you wish to be respected, then you must also treat others with respect. Have I ever been a dick to a christian for shoving their beliefs down my throat? just ask my wife, who is catholic. but I've learned the best way to deal with that is to just say "not for me" or fuck with them and say "I'm a Satanist" or some shit. But there's no real reason to be calling people names for their belief system.

I personally don't think atheists are oppressed or anything, not unless they allow themselves to be. I don't even really identify as an atheist anymore, as I realized a while back that identifying as something I'm NOT doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. that's like someone asking me what I do for a living and answering with "not a doctor".

Oh, and as for your last comment.... Atheism is something, not NOT something. I would say that Atheism is a religion, just not an organized one. Do Atheists have proof that there is NOT a God? I don't think so. Therefore, Atheists need to have faith that there is NOT a God. That sounds like a belief system to me - one requiring faith - not just some void where something simply is not.

Very well said. I don't think atheist have an official book? we need a book!!

Yikes, that would mean getting organized. The last thing the world needs is another organized religion!!

But there are plenty of books about the philosophy of Atheism. One title that comes to mind, which I found in Value Village, is "Atheism: The (A?) Case Against God". But I read it years ago - I can't remember how good it was. I do remember thinking that it made a lot of good points logically ... I don't think it addressed anything like the affects of Atheism on one's world view or faith, etc, but I could be forgetting things. It's more like a text one might use in a Philosophy of Religion course that has a unit on Atheism vs. belief in God.

Pingfah · September 2013

I am an Atheist (non-theist? whatever, i just don't believe in god), and I completely disagree with both of you

As far as I am concerned, the burden of proof is upon those making the positive claim. I don't need proof that there is no god any more than I need proof that there are no Fairies. There is no scientific evidence that there is a God, therefore there is no need to prove that there isn't one. There is no evidence to dispute! Lots of other people believing in it is not evidence. Historically people have believed in all sorts of crazy nonsense, having lots of believers does not lend a notion credence in itself.

So no, I dispute that I need faith, faith is religious terminology, I don't view the world through that lense. Nobody has ever given me a reason to believe in god, I don't need faith to simply not believe in something for which there is no evidence.

And I wouldn't want a book either. It would be a very short book for me, it would just say "I don't believe in God, the end."

PJ_Soul · September 2013

Pingfah wrote:

I am an Atheist (non-theist? whatever, i just don't believe in god), and I completely disagree with both of you

As far as I am concerned, the burden of proof is upon those making the positive claim. I don't need proof that there is no god any more than I need proof that there are no Fairies. There is no scientific evidence that there is a God, therefore there is no need to prove that there isn't one. There is no evidence to dispute! Lots of other people believing in it is not evidence. Historically people have believed in all sorts of crazy nonsense, having lots of believers does not lend a notion credence in itself.

So no, I dispute that I need faith, faith is religious terminology, I don't view the world through that lense. Nobody has ever given me a reason to believe in god, I don't need faith to simply not believe in something for which there is no evidence.

And I wouldn't want a book either. It would be a very short book for me, it would just say "I don't believe in God, the end."

That means you are more of a passive Atheist. I'm not.

I agree with you about the BURDEN of proof being upon believers assuming we want someone to prove something and we are debating the issue ... but that does not mean that there is proof that God does not exist, which does mean we need faith to believe it (granted, we don't need nearly as much faith

).

It can also be thought of in this sense: what about Buddhists? Isn't that considered a religion? They don't believe in God. Instead they just have a philosophy. A belief system that does not involve God, but rather a connection between all things. How are Atheists any different? It's safe to assume that just about every Atheist believes in Nature/Science and that Nature/Science is a power greater than themselves (albeit not conscious).

I dunno. Obviously I see a lot more going on with Atheism that you folks.

Pingfah · September 2013

Science isn't the exclusive domain of the atheistic though, everybody believes in science to some extent. Even the religious. Two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom make water. That's indisputable whatever religion you are.

I'm not going to take science and call it the belief system of the non religious, that's enormously insulting to most of the population of the world.

It's not up to science to prove there is no god, it's up to science to prove there is a god, and it can't.

PJ_Soul · September 2013

Pingfah wrote:

Science isn't the exclusive domain of the atheistic though, everybody believes in science to some extent. Even the religious. Two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom make water. That's indisputable whatever religion you are.

I'm not going to take science and call it the belief system of the non religious, that's enormously insulting to most of the population of the world.

It's not up to science to prove there is no god, it's up to science to prove there is a god, and it can't.

I am not saying that religious people don't believe in science of course.

Science is not a living being. It's the study of natural processes. Science can't prove shit. People do that. And people form a world view based on what science reveals as well as what they view as the fact of no God in a world where most people believe in one.

I'm getting the impression that you guys just don't understand what I am saying. I'll assume it must be my fault in that I'm not explaining it very well. Although there is a possibility that you also have kind of a restricted idea of what belief and faith is?? Maybe it's all the god-based religion in the world skewing the outlook. :think:

Pingfah · September 2013

When I refer to science, I am talking about people employing the scientific method of course, I thought that would go without saying...

And no, I get what you are saying, I just think the amount of faith required to not believe in something which has no evidence is so negligible as to be not worth discussing. Certainly it is for me.

PJ_Soul · September 2013

Pingfah wrote:

When I refer to science, I am talking about people employing the scientific method of course, I thought that would go without saying...

And no, I get what you are saying, I just think the amount of faith required to not believe in something which has no evidence is so negligible as to be not worth discussing. Certainly it is for me.

.... Definitely not for me or a lot of other Atheists, because as I said before, Atheism is not simply about not believing in God. Atheism requires a fairly complex belief system in this world. It may not feel complex because it's a part of us, but it is not a simple matter in a world of religion IMO..

Pingfah · September 2013

PJ_Soul wrote:

.... Definitely not for me or a lot of other Atheists, because as I said before, Atheism is not simply about not believing in God. Atheism requires a fairly complex belief system in this world. It may not feel complex because it's a part of us, but it is not a simple matter in a world of religion IMO..

See this is why I don't think a book would help, it would be very different for every atheist I think! I respect how you feel, but I just don't feel like that myself.

Perhaps it is the country I live in? Religion is not in your face here, I don't get looked at funny if I say I am atheist, my sister is the only religious person I know! She's the one who gets looked at funny

It's not a complicated matter for me, it just isn't something I even think about from day to day.

Each to their own though

If you're muslim you can leave, dead if not

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