If you're muslim you can leave, dead if not

fuck wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

ajedigecko wrote:

Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."


Is this out of context?

No it's not ... any book that claims to be a holy book should not promote violence ... especially fairy tales. Are they not teaching these books to impressionable children? Are they left up to the instructor to interpret? for the instructor to teach? Yeah what can go wrong with that.

Like I have stated I have no interest in reading fairy tales from any religion ... because religion is bullshit!

"No it's not?" That's all you have to say? No need to take history into account, right? Judge lukin2006 has ruled.

If your kid asked you why countries go to war, what would you say? Would you say that war is never ok? I don't think you would--I think you'd talk about the horrors of war, I think you'd mention how it's an awful thing that sadly humans have resorted to since the beginning of time. But I think you'd also explain the many complexities. I think you'd say that sometimes people have to go to war for many different reasons: to prevent genocides, empires spreading, etc.

So if a religion sanctions war in very specific circumstances, is it just categorically wrong? Does that mean that one can explain to their child the various complexities of war, but a religion should just say "turn the other cheek ALWAYS?" Why do you get to make that call?

Why is it that things in Western culture are always analyzed through the lens of complexities, various circumstances and hypothetical scenarios, etc., but when it comes to Islam it's a monolithic approach: it says this, it can only mean this, and thus it is wrong and barbaric. Why don't we apply the various complexities that exist in ALL societies to Muslim ones as well?

I don't care if you think religion is bullshit, frankly. Believe whatever you want - I respect your right to do that. I respect the fact that you don't believe in God. I'm sure you've had an upbringing that shaped the way you think and why you think that way, and I don't think your disbelief in a god or religion hurts society or people. But I do think you speak with an extremely nasty and condescending tone, and you clearly do not respect people who do believe in religion: just look at the way you belittle them for believing in "fairy tales." If you think religion is untrue that's perfectly fine, but to belittle and condescend is not a way to have constructive dialogue about religion, it's just another way of saying my cock is bigger than yours.

I wonder if it really matters. Not everyone is some kind of theological scholar. Isn't what really matters who things appear to the masses rather than how things appear to those who spend years and years studying and deciphering the meanings of what is stated in the Quran? It is exactly the same with the Bible. That's fine and dandy that some theologian can discuss how this line and that line is metaphorical or apply historical context to it, but the greater impact comes with the joe-schmoe who believes that the Bible condemns gays because of that verse about man lying with man being an abomination.

even flow - question mark wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I wonder if it really matters. Not everyone is some kind of theological scholar. Isn't what really matters who things appear to the masses rather than how things appear to those who spend years and years studying and deciphering the meanings of what is stated in the Quran? It is exactly the same with the Bible. That's fine and dandy that some theologian can discuss how this line and that line is metaphorical or apply historical context to it, but the greater impact comes with the joe-schmoe who believes that the Bible condemns gays because of that verse about man lying with man being an abomination.

Can kill your brother and not be his keeper according to page 12 of the bible.

Well right. There is all kinds of shit in the Bible like that. Which is why anyone who tries to claim "oh, but that's not what that really means" kind of seems suspect. It says what it says.

badbrains wrote:

I'm sorry u feel that way pj soul, but you're wrong. Your view is that of an extremist view of Islam. Again, NO ONE BUT god judges who goes to heaven. That's it, plain and simple. Go to any true Muslim and he/she will have no problem stating what I said. My uncle practices the religion and he has NO PROBLEM with me having a "catholic" girl friend or even have a problem with me marrying her. I'm telling you, you're wrong. But it's ok, doesn't mean I wouldn't want to toke with ya!

There are certainly many quote from the Quran saying that women and men are equal as far as how they practice their faith goes, and it does say that killing infant daughters is a sin, and that men should be chaste like women... So there are some things about certain kinds of equality in that book. However, it also says things like:

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

And

"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."

And

"Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."

And

"O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things."

And

"Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise."

Yes, it is easy to find direct quotes from the Quran that show how Islam does not consider women equal to men. As a woman, I find it offensive when people try to claim that women are equal to men in Islam because it denies that there is a big problem in this regard both in the religion and in the culture.

Jason P wrote:

More stories of heroism. This of a Somali-born Muslim, Abdul Haji, helping women and children escape. Abdul grabbed his gun and rushed to the mall when he heard of the attack because his brother was there.

Pictures of the escape are included in the link:

http://www.businessinsider.com/abdul-haji-the-man-behind-westgate-photo-2013-9

Touching photo.