Israel Approves More Illegal Settlements
Comments
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Byrnzie wrote:PhillyCrownOfThorns wrote:That being said, you are undeniably the most vocal poster on this subject. I find it interesting that you have gained your experience from cyber-stine.
That, and reading books, and watching documentaries, and talking with people, attending demonstrations, and corresponding on the subject with my local MP in England.
Out of curiosity, how many of those books, documentaries, people spoken with, demonstrations, etc. held roughly the views on Israel that you currently hold?you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0 -
yosi wrote:Byrnzie wrote:PhillyCrownOfThorns wrote:That being said, you are undeniably the most vocal poster on this subject. I find it interesting that you have gained your experience from cyber-stine.
That, and reading books, and watching documentaries, and talking with people, attending demonstrations, and corresponding on the subject with my local MP in England.
Out of curiosity, how many of those books, documentaries, people spoken with, demonstrations, etc. held roughly the views on Israel that you currently hold?
Most of what I've read have been reports by organizations such as Amnesty, the U.N, Human Rights Watch, and B'tselem. Strangely, they mostly all hold the same views on Israel as me - that the occupation is illegal and that Israel wantonly and consistently commits crimes against humanity.
Maybe you think I should read the words of Jeffrey Goldberg, Allan Dershowitz, and IDF spokesperson Mark Regev instead? A bunch of lying, self-serving weasels.0 -
I think that when you live inside an echo chamber you can't really claim to have perspective on an issue. I also think it's interesting how you characterize people who hold opinions that differ from your own. You seem very open-minded.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0
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yosi wrote:I think that when you live inside an echo chamber you can't really claim to have perspective on an issue. I also think it's interesting how you characterize people who hold opinions that differ from your own. You seem very open-minded.
Pot - kettle - black
I seem to remember numerous occasions where you've dismissed Norman Finkelstein (just yesterday, in fact), and have attempted to paint Michael Neumann as a racist anti-Semite. And of course the International Court of Justice just 'got it wrong'.
Really, the irony here is off the scale.0 -
I've definitely never called Michael Neumann a racist or an anti-semite. I know you think all of us who disagree with you on Israel like to fling around that accusation with careless abandon, but you know for a fact that I'm a bit more careful when it comes to that particular accusation.
I fail to see the irony here. Yes, there are people I disagree with. There are even people I disagree with so much that I resist giving their opinions a fair shake, which I admit is a minor fault. I'm not saying that you can't disagree with people. I'm just saying that someone who labels everyone who disagrees with them "a bunch of lying, self-serving weasels" is probably not a paragon of objectivity or open-mindedness.
As for pot-kettle-black, I don't think the author of "lying, self-serving weasels" should be accusing others of objectionably dismissing others' opinions.
Also, you still haven't really answered my question.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0 -
yosi wrote:I've definitely never called Michael Neumann a racist or an anti-semite.
Fair enough, it was another poster: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=185395&p=4308806&hilit=Michael+Neumann#p43088060 -
Interesting to see how John Kerry will respond to this latest Israeli rejection of a peaceful settlement. I expect full U.S acquiescence as per usual.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... n-hopeless
Palestinian hopes for two states 'not possible', says Israeli minister Bennett
Israeli trade minister Naftali Bennett dismisses two-state solution as 'hopeless' and urges swift annexation of West Bank's Area C
Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem
guardian.co.uk, Monday 17 June 2013
'...Naftali Bennett, who was appointed Israel's economics and trade minister following a strong showing in January's election, told a conference of settlers in Jerusalem that Israel should urgently annex large tracts of the West Bank currently under its control.
Referring to the idea of a Palestinian state, Bennett said: "Never have so many people invested so much energy in something that is hopeless."
The challenge, he added, was "how do we move forward from here, knowing that a Palestinian state within Israel is not possible ... We have to move from solving the problem to living with the problem." Annexation of "Area C", the 62% of the West Bank under total Israeli control, should proceed "as quickly as possible".
Bennett said: "The most important thing in the land of Israel is to build, build, build. It's important that there will be an Israeli presence everywhere.
"This land has been ours for 3,000 years. There was never a Palestinian state here and we were never occupiers. The house is ours and we are residents here, not the occupiers."0 -
so continuing the settlement expansion will damage the relationship between the netherlands and israel, yet sanctions to prevent such settlement expansion are off the table....what the fuck???
The Netherlands will veto EU sanctions over Israeli settlements: minister
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... o_eu_s.php
Wednesday 19 June 2013
The Netherlands will veto any moves by the European Union to impose sanctions if Israel presses ahead with building settlements on disputed territory east of Jerusalem, foreign minister Frans Timmermans is quoted as saying by news agency ANP.
Timmermans said sanctions are not 'currently on the agenda'. The minister met with Israeli and Palestinian representatives over the past two days as part of a visit to the Middle East.
The imposition of sanctions would hinder efforts to restart the peace talks and that should be prevented, Timmermans said, adding that it is of great importance to get US secretary of state John Kerry round the table with Israeli and Palestinian leaders.
'President Obama's initiative is not only the best, but the only option to get the peace process moving again,' he said in a briefing on Wednesday.
Nevertheless, building on the territory, known as E1, would negatively influence the bilateral relationship between the Netherlands and Israel, the minister said."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
About time. Hopefully they'll also go ahead with labelling all goods originating from the Occupied Territories so that people can choose to stop indirectly giving money to the thieving, racist bastards.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... ion-clause
EU takes tougher stance on Israeli settlements
'Earthquake' directive will prohibit EU states from signing deals with Israel unless settlement exclusion clause is included
Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 16 July 2013
The European Union has banned its 28 member states from signing agreements with Israel without an explicit exclusion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank or East Jerusalem, in a directive described by an Israeli official as an "earthquake".
The EU guidelines, adopted on 30 June, will prohibit the issuing of grants, funding, prizes or scholarships unless a settlement exclusion clause is included. Israeli institutions and bodies situated across the pre-1967 Green Line will be automatically ineligible.
The Israeli government will be required to state in any future agreements with the EU that settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are outside the state of Israel.
The binding directive, part of the 2014-20 financial framework, covers all areas of co-operation between the EU and Israel, including economics, science, culture, sports and academia. It does not cover trade, such as produce and goods originating in settlements.
An EU statement said the guidelines "set out the territorial limitations under which the commission will award EU support to Israeli entities … Concern has been expressed in Europe that Israeli entities in the occupied territories could benefit from EU support. The purpose of these guidelines is to make a distinction between the state of Israel and the occupied territories when it comes to EU support."
The move follows a decision by EU foreign ministers last December that "all agreements between the state of Israel and the EU must unequivocally and explicitly indicate their inapplicability to the territories occupied by Israel in 1967". All Israeli settlements are illegal under international law.
"The EU is trying to force Israel to adopt its position on settlements," said an Israeli official. "Israel will have to explicitly express in writing the EU's position. We don't believe the EU's position should be forced down our throats like geese." He said it was impossible for Israel to agree to such a demand.
The directive would affect "all realms of co-operation", he added, and would result in "rising tension and increased friction" and "create a lot of bad blood".
Another Israeli official told Haaretz, which disclosed the new guidelines, the move was an "earthquake" which unprecedentedly turns "understandings and quiet agreements that the [EU] does not work beyond the Green Line" into "formal, binding policy".
...Israel has become increasingly concerned about the EU adopting a more robust stance against settlements. Some member states are pressing for an EU-wide policy of labelling produce and goods originating in settlements to allow consumers to make informed choices on purchases.
[..]minister, Silvan Shalom, said: "Once again, Europe has demonstrated just how detached it is, how it can't really be a full partner to the negotiations."0 -
Byrnzie wrote:About time. Hopefully they'll also go ahead with labelling all goods originating from the Occupied Territories so that people can choose to stop indirectly giving money to the thieving, racist bastards.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... ion-clause
EU takes tougher stance on Israeli settlements
'Earthquake' directive will prohibit EU states from signing deals with Israel unless settlement exclusion clause is included
Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 16 July 2013
The European Union has banned its 28 member states from signing agreements with Israel without an explicit exclusion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank or East Jerusalem, in a directive described by an Israeli official as an "earthquake".
The EU guidelines, adopted on 30 June, will prohibit the issuing of grants, funding, prizes or scholarships unless a settlement exclusion clause is included. Israeli institutions and bodies situated across the pre-1967 Green Line will be automatically ineligible.
The Israeli government will be required to state in any future agreements with the EU that settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are outside the state of Israel.
The binding directive, part of the 2014-20 financial framework, covers all areas of co-operation between the EU and Israel, including economics, science, culture, sports and academia. It does not cover trade, such as produce and goods originating in settlements.
An EU statement said the guidelines "set out the territorial limitations under which the commission will award EU support to Israeli entities … Concern has been expressed in Europe that Israeli entities in the occupied territories could benefit from EU support. The purpose of these guidelines is to make a distinction between the state of Israel and the occupied territories when it comes to EU support."
The move follows a decision by EU foreign ministers last December that "all agreements between the state of Israel and the EU must unequivocally and explicitly indicate their inapplicability to the territories occupied by Israel in 1967". All Israeli settlements are illegal under international law.
"The EU is trying to force Israel to adopt its position on settlements," said an Israeli official. "Israel will have to explicitly express in writing the EU's position. We don't believe the EU's position should be forced down our throats like geese." He said it was impossible for Israel to agree to such a demand.
The directive would affect "all realms of co-operation", he added, and would result in "rising tension and increased friction" and "create a lot of bad blood".
Another Israeli official told Haaretz, which disclosed the new guidelines, the move was an "earthquake" which unprecedentedly turns "understandings and quiet agreements that the [EU] does not work beyond the Green Line" into "formal, binding policy".
...Israel has become increasingly concerned about the EU adopting a more robust stance against settlements. Some member states are pressing for an EU-wide policy of labelling produce and goods originating in settlements to allow consumers to make informed choices on purchases.
[..]minister, Silvan Shalom, said: "Once again, Europe has demonstrated just how detached it is, how it can't really be a full partner to the negotiations."
It is about time. Great news.0 -
Business as usual then for Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign. Why would a precondition of these so-called 'peace-talks' be that they last for a year? If that's not a giveaway as to the true purpose of these so-called 'peace-talks' then I don't know what is.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... alks-doubt
'...Israel's former foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman, wrote on Facebook that there was "no solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, at least not in the coming years, and what's possible and important to do is conflict-management".
Naftali Bennett, economics minister, insisted construction on Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem would continue, regardless of talks.
...Israel is pushing for negotiations to last up to a year, fuelling concern among critics who believe Netanyahu is seeking to give the appearance of diplomatic co-operation while stalling for as long as possible on any outcome.0 -
Israel announces the construction of 1,200 new settler homes, three days before the so-called 'peace-talks' are due to begin.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/a ... eace-talks
'...Eight hundred of the new homes will be built in colonies across the pre-1967 Green Line in Jerusalem – the part of the city the Palestinians want as the capital of their future state. Construction could take two years. All settlements in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem are illegal under international law.
"No country receives orders about where it can and cannot build from other countries," said Ariel, a former head of the settlers' council, Yesha, But in an indication of bitter divisions within the Israeli cabinet, finance minister Yair Lapid described the move as a "big mistake" and said it was "not conducive for the peace process".
Palestinian leaders warned that continued settlement expansion could scupper the talks. Negotiator Mohammad Shtayyeh said it was "clear that the Israeli government is deliberately attempting to sabotage US and international efforts to resume negotiations by approving more settlement units three days before the first Palestinian-Israeli meeting". He added: "Israel continues to use peace negotiations as a smokescreen for more settlement construction."0 -
Byrnzie wrote:Israel announces the construction of 1,200 new settler homes, three days before the so-called 'peace-talks' are due to begin.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/a ... eace-talks
'...Eight hundred of the new homes will be built in colonies across the pre-1967 Green Line in Jerusalem – the part of the city the Palestinians want as the capital of their future state. Construction could take two years. All settlements in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem are illegal under international law.
"No country receives orders about where it can and cannot build from other countries," said Ariel, a former head of the settlers' council, Yesha, But in an indication of bitter divisions within the Israeli cabinet, finance minister Yair Lapid described the move as a "big mistake" and said it was "not conducive for the peace process".
Palestinian leaders warned that continued settlement expansion could scupper the talks. Negotiator Mohammad Shtayyeh said it was "clear that the Israeli government is deliberately attempting to sabotage US and international efforts to resume negotiations by approving more settlement units three days before the first Palestinian-Israeli meeting". He added: "Israel continues to use peace negotiations as a smokescreen for more settlement construction."
I swear its fucken ground hog day with Israel every time talks are about to start. And as usual, nothing ever comes from these talks.0 -
badbrains wrote:I swear its fucken ground hog day with Israel every time talks are about to start. And as usual, nothing ever comes from these talks.
And now you're a prophet? You already know the outcome of talks that haven't even really begun yet? How about some optimism. The fact that they're even going to get back to talking to each other is a step in the right direction all by itself.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0 -
well well well, what do ya know?
israel deliberately inflames tensions in attempt to sabotage the peace talks.
again.
i guess they did it this time so they can blame the certain failure on the palestinians when they pull out of the talks as a direct result of the settlement expansion.
always have to find a way to play the victim.
it is fucking groundhog day."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
yosi wrote:badbrains wrote:I swear its fucken ground hog day with Israel every time talks are about to start. And as usual, nothing ever comes from these talks.
And now you're a prophet? You already know the outcome of talks that haven't even really begun yet? How about some optimism. The fact that they're even going to get back to talking to each other is a step in the right direction all by itself.
Ya I do and so do you. EVERYONE already knows ZERO is gonna come from these talks. Don't fool yourself into believing anything will come from them. As for optimism, I ran out of it after the hundredth so-called talks took place.0 -
Hundreds of talks? By my count this will be only the third time the two sides have actually sat down to try to negotiate a final status agreement (the first two were Camp David/Taba and the talks between Abbas and Olmert in '08-'09).
As for intentionally undermining the talks before they begin...I agree that this latest settlement announcement is counterproductive, but I'm curious how you explain Israel's agreeing to release 100+ prisoners considered to be terrorists by Israelis despite the widespread unpopularity of doing so among the Israeli public?you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0 -
yosi wrote:Hundreds of talks? By my count this will be only the third time the two sides have actually sat down to try to negotiate a final status agreement (the first two were Camp David/Taba and the talks between Abbas and Olmert in '08-'09).
As for intentionally undermining the talks before they begin...I agree that this latest settlement announcement is counterproductive, but I'm curious how you explain Israel's agreeing to release 100+ prisoners considered to be terrorists by Israelis despite the widespread unpopularity of doing so among the Israeli public?
A-To me, it seems like hundreds of talks. I was being sarcastic and
B-You know for sure that if these 100+ "prisoners" were actually "terrorists" Israel WOULDN'T be releasing them. Lets be real here.0 -
You're right, "terrorist" couldn't possibly describe any of these guys. :roll: From today's Haaretz:
Israel has published the names of 26 Palestinian prisoners who are to be released later this week as part of a U.S.-brokered deal that led to a resumption of Mideast negotiations.
Twenty-one in the group were convicted of killing Israelis or suspected Palestinian collaborators, while others were involved in attempted murder or kidnapping. Most have already served 20 years.
Among the 26 prisoners Israel will release on Tuesday are three members of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, two from Hamas and one from the Islamic Jihad. Fifteen are residents of the Gaza Strip and will be released there; four come from Nablus, another four from Jenin, one from Bethlehem and one from Hebron.
Some of the convicted killers on the list are Salah Ahmed Ibrahim Mughdad who in the 1990s murdered 70-year-old Israel Tenenbaum; Samir Abdel Na'anish, convicted for the 1989 murder of Israeli soldier Benyamin Meisner in Nablus; Mahmoud Bad Almagid Saulha and Fauza Ahmed Husseini Saulha from Nablus who as minors stabbed to death teenager Baruch Heizler at a bus station.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0 -
The NY Times reports:
Israel’s Supreme Court heard petitions on Sunday by families of some of the victims who opposed the release of convicted Palestinians. Outside the courthouse, relatives of the victims held a small, quiet vigil.
One of them was Gila Molcho, the sister of Ian Feinberg, an Israeli lawyer who was bludgeoned to death by a Palestinian man wielding an ax in Gaza in 1993 while he was working on a project there. Ms. Molcho held a framed portrait of her brother, who was 30.
“Don’t let them come home as heroes,” she said of the prisoners to be released. “We will be left holding the pictures.” Weeping, she added, “They are terrorists, not soldiers.”
Abdel Aal Said Ouda Yusef, jailed since 1994 for throwing explosives and being an accessory to the killing of Mr. Feinberg and another man, appeared on the list of those to be released this week.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0
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