Is America Really 'The Land of The Free'?

PJ_Soul · May 2013

polaris_x wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Yeah, I was going to say the British Empire. By far and away. But have you ever heard of the USSR??? How about Japan? Ask the Chinese how they feel about their history of foreign policy. It's all about perceptions really, and who you ask. And I will point out that American probably leads the way in terms of positive impact as well. Pretty sure they give by FAR the most in foreign aid as well, so really it's all about perspective. I think it's fairly ludicrous to basically label America as the nation that has the most negative impact in the world, since there is so much more to consider than what you are clearly considering, in a very biased manner at that. I'd definitely like to see some kind of methodical scientific study done to determine what nation, in all of history, has had the biggest negative impact in the world. I seriously doubt it would be the US, simply by virtue of 1) how young it is, and 2) the positive impact it also has to counter-balance.

In any case, I never said that the US was "just another country", and was not making a pro-American foreign policy argument (yes, I know the impact it has on the world... I'm not sure you have a very clear view of it though, just because you are clearly very biased on the subject, whereas I feel quite objective). My point was that there are plenty of Americans who are not super nationalistic like you claim, and there are even self-loathing Americans. Not sure how you made this conversational leap.

uhh ... with all due respect ... i honestly don't think you understand the full scope of history here ... otherwise you wouldn't use Japan ... nor the USSR ... neither of those countries come close ... also, do you understand how foreign aid works!? ... the billions the US gives to israel in aid is in the form of military assistance ... war profiteering ... other aid packages come with conditions that infrastructure contracts go to american corporations ... so, in essence that aid ends up back in US corporations accounts ...

the fact you have come to a conclusion that i am biased just goes to show that you aren't even objectively approaching it ... how can you come to the conclusion when you do not even know how i've come to that conclusion ... just because you haven't doesn't make it so ... have i ever written anything that was false or a lie about america? ... please show me that ... otherwise, i'm not sure how you can call me biased ...

also - you do realize the purpose of generalizations correct? ... of course there are americans who aren't as nationalistic as others ... i'm not sure why i even have to point out that absurdity!? ... if we can't speak of generalizations ... what are we to do? ... you already said that the majority are nationalistic ... so, you've agreed with my assertation ...

I think you're missing my point. I mentioned the USSR (err, 10 million dead just within its borders during the Stalin years alone, their role in the Cold War, not to mention all the other shit), and Japan because I was pointing out that the most negative impact is determined by the perceptions of those who were harmed or helped by a nation's actions. I was not stating any kind of personal opinion. As I said, it is almost surely the British Empire that would win that race, but I don't think the USA would come in second, considering European history and the USA's positive impacts factored in.

I am in support of reasonable generalizations - otherwise we'd be qualifying shit forever. But your initial statement was too broad a generalization in my opinion, give how many Americans don't feel the way you said they do. I don't think the numbers justified your particular generalization, considering how many Americans are against US foreign policy... I think saying the MAJORITY of Americans are against it is a realistic estimate.

FYI, being biased does not mean that you have lied. It means that you ignore other relevant facts in order to bolster your opinion.

brianlux · May 2013

Come visit the Western Slope/Sacramento Valley Bioregion and be free!

lukin2006 · May 2013

I would say unless your independently wealthy or living off the land and totally off the grid ... then none of us are really free ... :( :(

PJ_Soul · May 2013

lukin2006 wrote:

I would say unless your independently wealthy or living off the land and totally off the grid ... then none of us are really free ... :( :(

I guess it's at this point when we need to explore definitions of freedom in the context of being human beings who live in organized societies. No need to go extremist on the subject IMHO. I personally feel pretty darned free, as someone who lives in Canada and isn't a prisoner of personal debt (remember, sometimes, we create our own lack of freedom too). I do wish pot was legal though. :think:

Hugh Freaking Dillon · May 2013

brianlux wrote:

Re-reading parts of this thread , I'm reminded yet again how absurd political boundaries are. How often do we stop and reflect upon the idea- the fact, really- that we live in bioregions? If you live in Ely, Nevada you live in the bioregion generally referred to as The Great Basin. If you live where that excellent band Pearl Jam was formed you live in what is now referred to as The Pacific Northwest (which encompasses part of the political boundary of what is called "Canada"). Land of the free? If I thought of my land in political terms rather than bioregional, I would not feel free.

I really wish more people thought like you/me. I really think the world would be a better place. I personally think imaginary borders and nations is utterly ludicrous. it is the practice of DIVISIVENESS. that is ALL it is. dividing people and cultures and land.

I'm proud to be Canadian to a point (of our positive stereotypical traits), but I'd rather be known as an Earthling. Me, you, everyone, and every thing.

Then there'd be nothing to fight over.

chadwick · May 2013

earthlings sounds good to me. the powers that be could not handle the free roaming & neither could many regular folks. besides all you fucking earthlings would be invading iowa by the fucking truck loads & i'll be damned if we turn our cornfields into housing developments & be forced into traffic jams like many of you frickin people have to deal with every moment of everyday. and thank goodness we aren't missourians up here.

PJ_Soul · May 2013

Yeah, that'd be great and I'd totally get on board, but as long as religion and the human desire for power exists, that's just not gonna happen, so I don't even bother wasting my time thinking about it. It's just fantasy.

lukin2006 · May 2013

So some of you want borders eliminated? good luck with that. Most countries have enough trouble operating now, It sure would be interesting without borders ...

PJ_Soul · May 2013

lukin2006 wrote:

So some of you want borders eliminated? good luck with that. Most countries have enough trouble operating now, It sure would be interesting without borders ...

It would be a mess.... and probably a nice little set up for some genocide in some places.

brianlux · May 2013

lukin2006 wrote:

So some of you want borders eliminated? good luck with that. Most countries have enough trouble operating now, It sure would be interesting without borders ...

The only way I can envision the elimination of artificial borders would be if society broke down or changed drastically such that people were to live in a truly sustainable manner according to their local bioregion. Do I think this will happen any time soon? Not likely. Do I think it will happen eventually? Yes (unless A.I. takes over and runs things at which point it all becomes moot). Do I think the idea- unlikely as it is to happen any time soon- is worth discussing? Yes, very much so and I say that because it seems very possible that civilization could collapse at any time. It will happen- maybe tomorrow- may a hundred years from now but it will happen.

The other way to look at it, lukin 2006, is to look at how we view the world around us. We can choose to look at the artificial borders around us (which, in a sense, imprison us) or we can look at the world around us in the real terms of niche, ecological community, geography, geology, and bioregionalism- to be aware of the landscape around us and our place in it, to know the flora and fauna, the land forms and the weather with which we live.* Those are real and that kind of view of the world around us is liberating- it leads to a kind of freedom. To me this is not some kind of esoteric bullshit. I really believe that kind of thinking sense.

*And by the way, you can live in a city and do this. For some good examples read the "Urban Living" section of the book At Home on Earth edited by David Landis Barnhill, particularly Peter Sauer's contribution regarding NYC and and Alan Thein Durning's on Seattle.

lukin2006 · May 2013

lukin2006 wrote:

So some of you want borders eliminated? good luck with that. Most countries have enough trouble operating now, It sure would be interesting without borders ...

I guess you'd have one central government for the entire world with a bunch of regional governments maybe...I don't know...the problem as you've said is people's quest for power and religion...just can't see it happening.

Unless people are looking to something similar to what they have in Europe...where (I believe in the European Union) people's are free to move about the countries free of passports. How does working European Union work?

Byrnzie · May 2013

JimmyV wrote:

when someone consistently demonizes America then in my mind they have no more credibility than a racist who demonizes blacks or a sexist who demonizes women or a homophobe who demonizes gays. That you don't harbor this hatred Hugh does not mean that others do not.

I don't demonize 'America', and I don't hate 'America'. And none of my comments on this message board suggest as much. This is just a convenient fantasy you've concocted in your head so as to allow you to dismiss my comments wholesale without having to confront their content.

Byrnzie · May 2013

lukin2006 wrote:

I would say unless your independently wealthy or living off the land and totally off the grid ... then none of us are really free ... :( :(

Thank you.

Byrnzie · May 2013

Nobody have anything to say about the OP? Nobody concerned that the government maybe keeping a record of every single telephone conversation and e-mail you've ever made? Nobody concerned about the FBI seizing the phone records of the Associated Press?

lukin2006 · May 2013

Not in the least bit concerned that the government might be tracking me ... I lead a regular and probably by some standards boring ... And about the the only thing the government would find out about me is that I don't trust them, politicians are corrupt and government is corrupt...but I suspect they already know the vast majority of citizens feel the same way ...

lukin2006 · May 2013

Byrnzie wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

I would say unless your independently wealthy or living off the land and totally off the grid ... then none of us are really free ... :( :(

Thank you.

Guessing by the sarcasm you must have been where I read it ... I know I read or heard it before ... And happened to agree ... So please accept my apology :oops: :oops:.

Hugh Freaking Dillon · May 2013

lukin2006 wrote:

So some of you want borders eliminated? good luck with that. Most countries have enough trouble operating now, It sure would be interesting without borders ...

it obviously won't happen. I'm not suggesting as such. you only see that in apocalyptic movies. I have no issue with people identifying with their culture. I just don't get identifying with borders. it's man made. it's dumb. to be frank, in the western white world, there's really no such thing as original culture except for natives. we're the cultural mutts of the world. I'm Scottish, Irish, English, and who knows what the fuck else.

it obviously is-as someone tried to insult us by saying it is-a fantasy, and of course it is. everyone dreams to an extent. that would be my lottery, to not pay taxes, to live with my wife and kids and family off the land and worry about ourselves, our food, etc.

then again I also enjoy the socialist environment of health care, and every other service I receive from paying taxes. so there's no real perfect way to live. much like, as I said, others dreams of winning the lottery. it's not what you think it is.

brianlux · May 2013

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

So some of you want borders eliminated? good luck with that. Most countries have enough trouble operating now, It sure would be interesting without borders ...

it obviously won't happen. I'm not suggesting as such. you only see that in apocalyptic movies. I have no issue with people identifying with their culture. I just don't get identifying with borders. it's man made. it's dumb. to be frank, in the western white world, there's really no such thing as original culture except for natives. we're the cultural mutts of the world. I'm Scottish, Irish, English, and who knows what the fuck else.

it obviously is-as someone tried to insult us by saying it is-a fantasy, and of course it is. everyone dreams to an extent. that would be my lottery, to not pay taxes, to live with my wife and kids and family off the land and worry about ourselves, our food, etc.

then again I also enjoy the socialist environment of health care, and every other service I receive from paying taxes. so there's no real perfect way to live. much like, as I said, others dreams of winning the lottery. it's not what you think it is.

Hugh, either you and I have it figured out or we are a lot like our distinctive signatures.

lukin2006 · May 2013

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

So some of you want borders eliminated? good luck with that. Most countries have enough trouble operating now, It sure would be interesting without borders ...

it obviously won't happen. I'm not suggesting as such. you only see that in apocalyptic movies. I have no issue with people identifying with their culture. I just don't get identifying with borders. it's man made. it's dumb. to be frank, in the western white world, there's really no such thing as original culture except for natives. we're the cultural mutts of the world. I'm Scottish, Irish, English, and who knows what the fuck else.

it obviously is-as someone tried to insult us by saying it is-a fantasy, and of course it is. everyone dreams to an extent. that would be my lottery, to not pay taxes, to live with my wife and kids and family off the land and worry about ourselves, our food, etc.

then again I also enjoy the socialist environment of health care, and every other service I receive from paying taxes. so there's no real perfect way to live. much like, as I said, others dreams of winning the lottery. it's not what you think it is.

I'm not necessarily opposed ... But I have to agree with PJ Soul that as long as religion and people's quest for power exist it'll be tough.

As for your dream ... That's a lot of people dream and a good dream to have.

Hugh Freaking Dillon · May 2013

lukin2006 wrote:

as long as.....people's quest for power exist it'll be tough.

being that is part of man's nature, there is no way it will ever happen.

Is America Really 'The Land of The Free'?

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