Is America Really 'The Land of The Free'?

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  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,599
    Byrnzie wrote:
    JimmyV wrote:
    I guess my point is that when you read post after post from someone ripping on America or Americans

    Provide one example of someone 'ripping on America or Americans'.

    Don't have to look very far. What was the point of this particular thread that you created? Be honest.
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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    JimmyV wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    JimmyV wrote:
    I guess my point is that when you read post after post from someone ripping on America or Americans

    Provide one example of someone 'ripping on America or Americans'.

    Don't have to look very far. What was the point of this particular thread that you created? Be honest.

    What was the point of this thread? Did you even bother reading the article in the OP before you started frothing at the mouth? It deals with the U.S government infringing on the rights of American citizens.

    I'll ask you again: Provide one example of someone 'ripping on America or Americans'.
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,599
    Byrnzie wrote:

    What was the point of this thread? Did you even bother reading the article in the OP before you started frothing at the mouth? It deals with the U.S government infringing on the rights of American citizens.

    I'll ask you again: Provide one example of someone 'ripping on America or Americans'.

    No frothing here Byrnzie. This was just another post in a pattern that I have noticed.
    ___________________________________________

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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited May 2013
    JimmyV wrote:
    No frothing here Byrnzie. This was just another post in a pattern that I have noticed.

    A pattern of 'ripping on America or Americans', despite you being not able to provide even one example of anyone (me) 'ripping on America or Americans'.

    There's a difference between criticizing a government and it's policies, and criticizing an entire country and/or it's people. I suggest you take note of that difference.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,455
    anyone ANYWHERE on a digital device using cell service , wifi, or whatever kind of wireless communications delivery method is delusional if they believe there isnt a record of that communication held on a server somewhere and accesable to any goverment if that service wants to stay in business.
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  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,599
    Byrnzie wrote:
    JimmyV wrote:
    No frothing here Byrnzie. This was just another post in a pattern that I have noticed.

    A pattern of 'ripping on America or Americans', despite you being able to provide even one example of anyone (me) 'ripping on America or Americans'.

    There's a difference between criticizing a government and it's policies, and criticizing an entire country and/or it's people. I suggest you take note of that difference.

    There is, certainly. But there is also taking into consideration the source of said criticisms.
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  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,680
    It's all comparative. It's a helluva a lot more free than most places in the world, including all the places that the OP likes to pretend are more free, but not as much as Canada as far as I can tell, mostly thanks to the religious and race problem.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    JimmyV wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    There's a difference between criticizing a government and it's policies, and criticizing an entire country and/or it's people. I suggest you take note of that difference.

    There is, certainly. But there is also taking into consideration the source of said criticisms.

    but then you must also take into consideration the source of his criticisms. american government bullies the rest of the world, sticking its nose where it doesn't belong all over the place. people on here trumpet america as the bastion of freedom and glory, so you have to expect the opposite.

    why don't you see criticisms of the canadian conservative government on here? because they aren't out starting wars they have no business being in all in the name of false freedom, telling the rest of the world how they must live in order to be happy.

    they don't record the public's conversations.

    they recognize marriage equality.

    they don't have mass school shootings and/or a gun association telling them they aren't patriots if they don't own a gun in the wake of said shootings.

    I could go on.
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  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,599
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    JimmyV wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    There's a difference between criticizing a government and it's policies, and criticizing an entire country and/or it's people. I suggest you take note of that difference.

    There is, certainly. But there is also taking into consideration the source of said criticisms.

    but then you must also take into consideration the source of his criticisms. american government bullies the rest of the world, sticking its nose where it doesn't belong all over the place. people on here trumpet america as the bastion of freedom and glory, so you have to expect the opposite.

    why don't you see criticisms of the canadian conservative government on here? because they aren't out starting wars they have no business being in all in the name of false freedom, telling the rest of the world how they must live in order to be happy.

    they don't record the public's conversations.

    they recognize marriage equality.

    they don't have mass school shootings and/or a gun association telling them they aren't patriots if they don't own a gun in the wake of said shootings.

    I could go on.

    Go on. I am not saying anything you list is untrue or something that I am a fan of. What I am saying is that someone whose first response to a British soldier being hacked to death on a city street was
    Byrnzie wrote:
    They were a pair of attention seeking assholes, who wanted their five minutes of fame.

    They don't represent Islam any more than those American Apache helicopter pilots blasting away women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan don't represent Christianity.

    Next.

    then that person's criticisms of America should be taken with a grain of salt.

    America is far from perfect. We have many problems and many criticisms are valid. But when someone consistently demonizes America then in my mind they have no more credibility than a racist who demonizes blacks or a sexist who demonizes women or a homophobe who demonizes gays. That you don't harbor this hatred Hugh does not mean that others do not.
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  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    someone call!? ... :lol::lol:

    i'm pretty sure jimmy v is referring to at least me ... as much as i've tried to explain to him the differences - he's pretty much made up his mind ... which is fine ...

    americans are as nationalistic as they come ... it's beaten into them ... even the liberals here have an aversion to hearing what is wrong with the country ... they can't separate their defensive nature from the objective criticisms ...
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,599
    polaris_x wrote:
    someone call!? ... :lol::lol:

    i'm pretty sure jimmy v is referring to at least me ... as much as i've tried to explain to him the differences - he's pretty much made up his mind ... which is fine ...

    americans are as nationalistic as they come ... it's beaten into them ... even the liberals here have an aversion to hearing what is wrong with the country ... they can't separate their defensive nature from the objective criticisms ...

    I knew you'd be along soon enough. Thanks for chiming in with some broad generalities about Americans and helping to prove my point. :lol:
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,680
    polaris_x wrote:
    someone call!? ... :lol::lol:

    i'm pretty sure jimmy v is referring to at least me ... as much as i've tried to explain to him the differences - he's pretty much made up his mind ... which is fine ...

    americans are as nationalistic as they come ... it's beaten into them ... even the liberals here have an aversion to hearing what is wrong with the country ... they can't separate their defensive nature from the objective criticisms ...
    While it's true that a lot of Americans are VERY nationalistic (though not much more so that those from many other nations, such as France or Italy or Brazil), I have also noticed that a lot of Americans seem practically self-loathing to the point where I'm thinking "while America has negative points and a lot of room for improvement (to say the least), who the fuck brainwashed you into thinking America is THAT bad in the scheme of things?? Or are you just oblivious to the nature of the rest of the world by comparison?? Or just very susceptible to anti-American propaganda, and you have been made to feel guilty??." So I would agree that what you're saying here is a serious generalization.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    JimmyV wrote:
    I knew you'd be along soon enough. Thanks for chiming in with some broad generalities about Americans and helping to prove my point. :lol:

    thanks for reading that whole thing and misinterpreting as usual ... :lol::lol:
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    While it's true that a lot of Americans are VERY nationalistic (though not much more so that those from many other nations, such as France or Italy or Brazil), I have also noticed that a lot of Americans seem practically self-loathing to the point where I'm thinking "while America has negative points and a lot of room for improvement (to say the least), who the fuck brainwashed you into thinking America is THAT bad in the scheme of things?? Or are you just oblivious to the nature of the rest of the world by comparison?? Or just very susceptible to anti-American propaganda, and you have been made to feel guilty??." So I would agree that what you're saying here is a serious generalization.

    well ... this is all i can say ... i have traveled to every continent on this planet except antarctica ... my girlfriend lives in New York ... I have also traveled to over 42 states from the big cities to the tiniest towns ... but all that means nothing if one can't think critically ...

    do you understand the history of US foreign policy and its role in war, exploitation and suffering? ... what is your knowledge of US history to make you feel it's just another country? ... can you name another country that has had more of a negative impact on the world than the US with the exception of maybe the British Empire? ...
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,680
    polaris_x wrote:
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    While it's true that a lot of Americans are VERY nationalistic (though not much more so that those from many other nations, such as France or Italy or Brazil), I have also noticed that a lot of Americans seem practically self-loathing to the point where I'm thinking "while America has negative points and a lot of room for improvement (to say the least), who the fuck brainwashed you into thinking America is THAT bad in the scheme of things?? Or are you just oblivious to the nature of the rest of the world by comparison?? Or just very susceptible to anti-American propaganda, and you have been made to feel guilty??." So I would agree that what you're saying here is a serious generalization.

    well ... this is all i can say ... i have traveled to every continent on this planet except antarctica ... my girlfriend lives in New York ... I have also traveled to over 42 states from the big cities to the tiniest towns ... but all that means nothing if one can't think critically ...

    do you understand the history of US foreign policy and its role in war, exploitation and suffering? ... what is your knowledge of US history to make you feel it's just another country? ... can you name another country that has had more of a negative impact on the world than the US with the exception of maybe the British Empire? ...

    Yeah, I was going to say the British Empire. By far and away. But have you ever heard of the USSR??? How about Japan? Ask the Chinese how they feel about their history of foreign policy. It's all about perceptions really, and who you ask. And I will point out that American probably leads the way in terms of positive impact as well. Pretty sure they give by FAR the most in foreign aid as well, so really it's all about perspective. I think it's fairly ludicrous to basically label America as the nation that has the most negative impact in the world, since there is so much more to consider than what you are clearly considering, in a very biased manner at that. I'd definitely like to see some kind of methodical scientific study done to determine what nation, in all of history, has had the biggest negative impact in the world. I seriously doubt it would be the US, simply by virtue of 1) how young it is, and 2) the positive impact it also has to counter-balance.

    In any case, I never said that the US was "just another country", and was not making a pro-American foreign policy argument (yes, I know the impact it has on the world... I'm not sure you have a very clear view of it though, just because you are clearly very biased on the subject, whereas I feel quite objective). My point was that there are plenty of Americans who are not super nationalistic like you claim, and there are even self-loathing Americans. Not sure how you made this conversational leap.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,599
    polaris_x wrote:
    JimmyV wrote:
    I knew you'd be along soon enough. Thanks for chiming in with some broad generalities about Americans and helping to prove my point. :lol:

    thanks for reading that whole thing and misinterpreting as usual ... :lol::lol:

    And which part did I misinterpret?
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  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,664
    Re-reading parts of this thread , I'm reminded yet again how absurd political boundaries are. How often do we stop and reflect upon the idea- the fact, really- that we live in bioregions? If you live in Ely, Nevada you live in the bioregion generally referred to as The Great Basin. If you live where that excellent band Pearl Jam was formed you live in what is now referred to as The Pacific Northwest (which encompasses part of the political boundary of what is called "Canada"). Land of the free? If I thought of my land in political terms rather than bioregional, I would not feel free.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    Yeah, I was going to say the British Empire. By far and away. But have you ever heard of the USSR??? How about Japan? Ask the Chinese how they feel about their history of foreign policy. It's all about perceptions really, and who you ask. And I will point out that American probably leads the way in terms of positive impact as well. Pretty sure they give by FAR the most in foreign aid as well, so really it's all about perspective. I think it's fairly ludicrous to basically label America as the nation that has the most negative impact in the world, since there is so much more to consider than what you are clearly considering, in a very biased manner at that. I'd definitely like to see some kind of methodical scientific study done to determine what nation, in all of history, has had the biggest negative impact in the world. I seriously doubt it would be the US, simply by virtue of 1) how young it is, and 2) the positive impact it also has to counter-balance.

    In any case, I never said that the US was "just another country", and was not making a pro-American foreign policy argument (yes, I know the impact it has on the world... I'm not sure you have a very clear view of it though, just because you are clearly very biased on the subject, whereas I feel quite objective). My point was that there are plenty of Americans who are not super nationalistic like you claim, and there are even self-loathing Americans. Not sure how you made this conversational leap.

    uhh ... with all due respect ... i honestly don't think you understand the full scope of history here ... otherwise you wouldn't use Japan ... nor the USSR ... neither of those countries come close ... also, do you understand how foreign aid works!? ... the billions the US gives to israel in aid is in the form of military assistance ... war profiteering ... other aid packages come with conditions that infrastructure contracts go to american corporations ... so, in essence that aid ends up back in US corporations accounts ...

    the fact you have come to a conclusion that i am biased just goes to show that you aren't even objectively approaching it ... how can you come to the conclusion when you do not even know how i've come to that conclusion ... just because you haven't doesn't make it so ... have i ever written anything that was false or a lie about america? ... please show me that ... otherwise, i'm not sure how you can call me biased ...

    also - you do realize the purpose of generalizations correct? ... of course there are americans who aren't as nationalistic as others ... i'm not sure why i even have to point out that absurdity!? ... if we can't speak of generalizations ... what are we to do? ... you already said that the majority are nationalistic ... so, you've agreed with my assertation ...
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    JimmyV wrote:
    And which part did I misinterpret?

    the part where you take anything that can be mildly attributed as a criticism of americans and claim prejudice ... tell me ... are americans not nationalistic and proud people?
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,599
    polaris_x wrote:
    JimmyV wrote:
    And which part did I misinterpret?

    the part where you take anything that can be mildly attributed as a criticism of americans and claim prejudice ... tell me ... are americans not nationalistic and proud people?

    You wrote:
    americans are as nationalistic as they come ... it's beaten into them ... even the liberals here have an aversion to hearing what is wrong with the country ... they can't separate their defensive nature from the objective criticisms ...

    That statement is dripping with prejudice. You lump all Americans in together, then lump all American liberals in together. There is no objective criticism there.

    Are some American nationalistic and proud? Sure. So say some Americans. Don't paint us all with one brush and then claim to not have a bias.
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