Are Women Happier Post-Sexual Revolution?

RW81233 wrote:

it's just kind of annoying that the OP whines for 20 posts* (edit) about not getting an answer to the article's thesis after most posters have all but decimated the article as lazy journalism at best. Especially when I actually take the time to explain why we really think the author missed the boat on this one, and have respondents pull a tiny bit out of my response, misrepresent it (I was actually using that number to demonstrate progress of some sort not be critical), and then completely disregard the fact that I gave the OP what he was asking for. Whatevs lazy articles lead to lazy debate I suppose.

thing is ... you are coming from this from an "intellectualized" stand point ... rooted in some social theory ... i can tell because i know many people who have studied this ... the whole issue goes beyond gender but encapsulates issues of race, religion, sexuality, etc ...

from my experience - i find that those concepts are very hard for many people to grasp because their perception of reality is based largely on social constructs and media biases ...

RW81233 wrote:

Blockhead wrote:

RW81233 wrote:

I was pointing out that women make more now than they did in the past even though it still isn't equal, what's annoying about that? And does incoherent mean that it's something you don't want to understand? I didn't think what I put out was either ranty or incoherent.

Because it is EQUAL...
Women do make the exact same as men, as long as they have the same exact job title and hours.
If this were not the case then I am pretty sure all business would hire JUST women in every position to save money, right?

you would think that would be the case but it isn't...and it isn't equal even in academia women chairs at my school make less than male chairs, women profs make less than male profs, and so on. you know how i know this is true state universities have to publish this stuff - go ahead check it out.

Do they work they same ammount of hours, do they have equal experience, do you know which ones have asked for a raise and which ones havent, whos taking how much sick time...
Just looking at raw numbers tell you nothing... Except you seem to see that these numbers mean women are not equal...Maybe do some research before you come to such a bold conclusion...

Blockhead wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Yes it is... you are welcome to provide any evidence showing that a woman and a man applying for the SAME job with the SAME hours would equal a different pay...

Dude. If all jobs were paid hourly or if all jobs were union and what not you'd be right. We're talking about salaried positions where the pay is negotiated like with high level admin positions. It is in these cases where women get paid less than men for the same level jobs. That 77% stat is an average. Where many jobs are equal pay, those jobs that aren't drag the number down to 77% average. Actually, the majority are equal pay. But not the HIGH PAYING JOBS, and that's where the discrepancy comes from (and is also a good sign of the deeper issues). This is a well-established statistic. There is no reason why any of us should be digging up the details to prove it to you just because you're deluded into thinking it's not true. It's like asking us to present all the facts to prove to you what the population of China is. There is no need for us to explain it to you. It's a fact.

PJ_Soul wrote:

Blockhead wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Yes it is... you are welcome to provide any evidence showing that a woman and a man applying for the SAME job with the SAME hours would equal a different pay...

Dude. If all jobs were paid hourly or if all jobs were union and what not you'd be right. We're talking about salaried positions where the pay is negotiated like with high level admin positions. It is in these cases where women get paid less than men for the same level jobs. That 77% stat is an average. Where many jobs are equal pay, those jobs that aren't drag the number down to 77% average. Actually, the majority are equal pay. But not the HIGH PAYING JOBS, and that's where the discrepancy comes from (and is also a good sign of the deeper issues). This is a well-established statistic. There is no reason why any of us should be digging up the details to prove it to you just because you're deluded into thinking it's not true. It's like asking us to present all the facts to prove to you what the population of China is. There is no need for us to explain it to you. It's a fact.

Really... Its FACT?
Why don't you take the time and read this http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d0435.pdf
"Womens Earnings" Work Patterns Explain the Differences between Men and Womens earnings.
IF you actually read this then you will see that if actually broken down per hour there is no noticeable pay gap.
You are welcome to post any sources to back your logic also...

when i was going to graduate school we hired three professors 2 male and 1 female. one of the men was a very prolific scholar, whereas the other was not. the female was a better teacher and nearly matched the former in scholarly productivity. as the school paper presented male professor #1 made 68k, male professor #2 made 66k, and the female professor made 60k. it was right there in everyone's face. same thing happened across the university in several areas. same thing happens at higher levels. as someone else posted, at lower levels the pay tends to be much more equal.

blockhead did you read the government report or did you have someone tell you what it said? within the report it says:
"When we account for differences between male and female work patterns as well as other key factors, women earned, on average, 80 percent of what men earned in 2000. While the difference fluctuated in each year we studied, there was a small but statistically significant decline in the earnings difference over the time period. (See table 2 in app. II.)"

"Even after accounting for key factors that affect earnings, our model could not explain all of the difference in earnings between men and women".


Potential Reasons for the Remaining
Earnings Difference
• Our model could not explain all of the earnings difference between men and women due to inherent limitations in the survey data and in statistical analysis
• Some experts and literature identified potential reasons for an earnings difference:
• some women trade off advancement or higher earnings for a job that offers flexibility to manage work and family responsibilities
• discrimination resulting from societal views about acceptable roles for men and women or views about
women in the workplace may affect women’s earnings

Discrimination May Also Affect Women’s
Earnings
• According to some experts and literature, those who work in traditionally female-dominated occupations generally receive less earnings
• Also, according to some experts, discrimination against women in the workplace negatively affects women’s job opportunities, advancement, and therefore, earnings

Concluding Observations
• While we could account for much of the earnings difference between men and women, we cannot explain all of the difference due to inherent limitations in the survey data and in statistical analysis
• It is difficult to evaluate the remaining difference without a full understanding of what contributes to the difference
• An earnings difference resulting from individual decisions about how to manage work and family may not be a
problem, unless the decisions are not freely made
• An earnings difference may result from workplace discrimination or subtler discrimination about job choices
women can make

RW81233 wrote:

Blockhead wrote:

RW81233 wrote:

when i was going to graduate school we hired three professors 2 male and 1 female. one of the men was a very prolific scholar, whereas the other was not. the female was a better teacher and nearly matched the former in scholarly productivity. as the school paper presented male professor #1 made 68k, male professor #2 made 66k, and the female professor made 60k. it was right there in everyone's face. same thing happened across the university in several areas. same thing happens at higher levels. as someone else posted, at lower levels the pay tends to be much more equal.

Where you there when they negoiated for their salaries? Maybe the woman didn't.
How do you qualify a "better Teacher"
What were there teaching experience? What does nearly match mean?
There are so many questions you can't answer, but again you look at the raw numbers and assume that because the person making less is a woman, the only reason is because she is a woman...

female had more teaching experience than both, and received higher peer and student teaching reviews than both. she was the most coveted female academic in the field with offers from 3 other Universities. she published 3 books, and 18 journal articles in 3 years, whereas the male counterpart published 2 books and 21 journal articles in the same amount of time. the other yokel published 1 book and 4 journal articles. she took no time off.

So did you sit in their interviews, do you know who negotiated for what?