MLB 2025 Season

i see what you are saying monster, but then when is getting a cadaver tendon put into your ankle so you can pitch exactly good for you? what about TJ surgery, or ACL repairs (I had mine done, then found out that most people who get the procedure develop arthritis), cortisone shots or stronger, headache medicine, hell prescription painkillers (a huge problem at my school), and all of that other shit people put in their bodies so they can play? if we are going to ban steroids for safety reasons (which is fair) then we gotta ban all the other shit too. when we pull that apart, that's when the cold war shit pops up, because we don't truly care about athlete safety - if we did none of the aforementioned would exist.

Cliffy6745 wrote:

RW81233 wrote:

i see what you are saying monster, but then when is getting a cadaver tendon put into your ankle so you can pitch exactly good for you? what about TJ surgery, or ACL repairs (I had mine done, then found out that most people who get the procedure develop arthritis), cortisone shots or stronger, headache medicine, hell prescription painkillers (a huge problem at my school), and all of that other shit people put in their bodies so they can play? if we are going to ban steroids for safety reasons (which is fair) then we gotta ban all the other shit too. when we pull that apart, that's when the cold war shit pops up, because we don't truly care about athlete safety - if we did none of the aforementioned would exist.

Nonsense, there is a huge difference between getting tommy john surgery and whatever the fuck schilling had done and taking a shot to gain 30 pounds of muscle mass in 3 months that makes you go limp and fucks with your mind.

then let's just start with prescription painkillers, and cortisone shots that allow you to play when the natural human body would not be able to.

RW81233 wrote:

then let's just start with prescription painkillers, and cortisone shots that allow you to play when the natural human body would not be able to.

i think that is a fair point ... and i would say that it's similar to concussions ... if an athlete is required to take painkillers or shots that have long-term health effects in order to play ... they should sit ... but sports is big business and the might dollar always wins ...

RW81233 wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

RW81233 wrote:

i see what you are saying monster, but then when is getting a cadaver tendon put into your ankle so you can pitch exactly good for you? what about TJ surgery, or ACL repairs (I had mine done, then found out that most people who get the procedure develop arthritis), cortisone shots or stronger, headache medicine, hell prescription painkillers (a huge problem at my school), and all of that other shit people put in their bodies so they can play? if we are going to ban steroids for safety reasons (which is fair) then we gotta ban all the other shit too. when we pull that apart, that's when the cold war shit pops up, because we don't truly care about athlete safety - if we did none of the aforementioned would exist.

Nonsense, there is a huge difference between getting tommy john surgery and whatever the fuck schilling had done and taking a shot to gain 30 pounds of muscle mass in 3 months that makes you go limp and fucks with your mind.

then let's just start with prescription painkillers, and cortisone shots that allow you to play when the natural human body would not be able to.

That is obviously a huge problem and I don't think athletes should be taking pain killers either. That stuff is basically heroin. The Times article on the Rangers enforcer who died said he was getting a different prescription for some serious shit from all 6 of the Rangers doctors. That shit is unacceptable.

I am not outraged by steroids at all, I have stated that many times and if I were a professional athelete and my salary depended on it I would definitely take them but I don't think they should be in professional sports.

imalive wrote:

this horse has just about been beat to death....

but I truly believe the "health issues" have been way over stated by people with much more of a political agenda than any agenda based in fact.

GWB State of the Union speech - "there are no short cuts to accomplishment" :roll:

i dunno about overstated ... if you look at pharmaceuticals ... they all come with a textbook of side effects and do not do this or use this if lists ... steroids are essentially the same thing ... artificial ... not meant for the human body ... frig ... even antibiotics are bad for people and they get prescribed every second ...

Monster Rain wrote:

Cortisone shots and painkillers are being used legally, being administered by licensed professionals, and don't have the same consequences. A baseball player doesn't take the field after taking a percocet, so any use of something that strong wouldn't be used to get a guy on the field. A cortisone shot is used when a guy has some pain but isn't putting his health in danger by playing. You won't see a guy with a ligament in his knee barely staying together playing after a cortisone injection. That guy's getting surgery and recovering before he plays again. If you apply your argument logically, then no prescription painkiller whould be legal at all in any situation. It's not any less of a risk for me to take them then a linebacker in the NFL. I can become addicted just as easily. Also, if a player is found to be using an illegal prescription he can be disciplined under MLB rules. The penalty isn't as harsh as it is for PEDs but there are rules governing drug use in general.

I diasgree with this. Painkillers are certainly not being use legally in professional sports and again, I point to that article about the Rangers player. And I have read in a number of places that Ryan Howards achilles would probably not have torn if it were not for the cortisone shot he took before the playoffs.

I do think there is a pain killer problem in sports, as there is in America in general right now. I think those are more on the level of steroids than the medical procedures that were mentioned before.

I don't understand what you are getting at, no one here ever said they hate steroids, most said quite the opposite. I just don't think they should be part of the game.

Bonds' hat size was not always the same. It was a pretty widely-reported aspect of his perjury trial that the Giants' clubhouse attendant needed to get him a bigger hat in 2002. He went from a size 7-1/4 to a size 7-3/8 even though he started shaving his head. His feet also got bigger and his girfriend during his steroids-using time testified that his testicles shriveled and he had trouble performing in bed. Yes, impotency can and does occur in cases that don't involve steroids, but when you have 2 MLB players using steroids and also having that issue, the link isnt' exactly far-fetched.

As for wrestlers, the example I cited wasn't some run-of-the-mill death. The guy had been using steroids (the Albany, NY DA's Office stated that he had purchased steroids and HGH online from a company in Florida) nad had a history of domestic voilence. "Roid Rage isn't a myth, so it's hard to deny that steroids played a role in that incident.

As for other wrestler deaths and NFL players dying at "about the same rate" you are totally wrong. Here's a brief list of wrestlers who have died over the past 10-15 years. Check out their ages and then try to find a comparable list of NFL players dying that young.

Lance Cade - 29 (heart failure)
Test - 33
Brian Pillman - 35 (heart attack)
The Wall - 35 (heart attack)
Umaga - 36 (heart attack)
Eddie Guerrero - 38 (heart attack)
Kronus - 38 (heart failure)
Davey Boy Smith - 39 (heart attack, autospsy specifically mentioned steroids' possible role)
Rick Rude - 40 (heart failure)
Big Boss Man - 42 (heart attack)
Brian Adams (Crush) - 43 (unknown causes, had received shipment of steroids prior to death)
Curt Hennig (Mr. Perfect) - 44

That list only has people I think most wrestling fans would know. Pretty much everyone on that list had used steroids. All but 2 or 3 of them died of heart troubles (and those 2 were known to use steroids and Curt Hennig's father blamed steroids for contributing to his death). Is there a similar number of NFL players dying between the ages of 29-44 from anything, let alone heart issues? If there is, it's news to me. Since the NFL tests for steroids, the use of any type of steroids is much less than it is in professional wrestling. The WWE tests for it now, but only after the Chris Benoit incident attracted so much negative attention for the company. All of the people listed above wrestled before the WWE tested its performers (and not all of them were WWE performers, anyway).

RW81233 wrote:

I was summarizing the 4 main opinions 2 are generally against steroids (not numbers of people on the board of course) and 2 that don't hate them but don't want them in baseball (as you pointed out more people feel that way). i used to think like you cliffy until i started to follow the bonds story and break down why i didn't like steroids, and every time i did the logic i used was always severely flawed. i think we've outlined those flaws all day, yet some people hold on to the belief in the face of logic for various reasons (nostalgia for some sort of "all natural" past, belief in the war on drugs, and so on).

further i find it funny that people causally attribute ill-health conditions to things like steroids. for example Palmeiro can't get it up so it "must be the steroids" (n/m that not getting it up can happen to anyone steroids or not), Bonds head grew (even though his hat size always remained the same) so it "must be the steroids", WWE Wrestlers die (even though they jump off shit into other ridiculously huge bodies 230 days a year) so it "must be the steroids", NFL Players die at about the same rate so it "must be the constant physical abuse that these players go through because they don't use steroids". it's like the fake war on obesity that suggests that fat people are causally unhealthy simply because they are fat even though a critical reading of the peer reviewed research on obesity would show that this causal connection is spurious at best. human bodies and conditions that shape them are far more complex than simple causal relationships.

Monster Rain wrote:

Bonds' hat size was not always the same. It was a pretty widely-reported aspect of his perjury trial that the Giants' clubhouse attendant needed to get him a bigger hat in 2002. He went from a size 7-1/4 to a size 7-3/8 even though he started shaving his head. His feet also got bigger and his girfriend during his steroids-using time testified that his testicles shriveled and he had trouble performing in bed. Yes, impotency can and does occur in cases that don't involve steroids, but when you have 2 MLB players using steroids and also having that issue, the link isnt' exactly far-fetched.

As for wrestlers, the example I cited wasn't some run-of-the-mill death. The guy had been using steroids (the Albany, NY DA's Office stated that he had purchased steroids and HGH online from a company in Florida) nad had a history of domestic voilence. "Roid Rage isn't a myth, so it's hard to deny that steroids played a role in that incident.

As for other wrestler deaths and NFL players dying at "about the same rate" you are totally wrong. Here's a brief list of wrestlers who have died over the past 10-15 years. Check out their ages and then try to find a comparable list of NFL players dying that young.

Lance Cade - 29 (heart failure)
Test - 33
Brian Pillman - 35 (heart attack)
The Wall - 35 (heart attack)
Umaga - 36 (heart attack)
Eddie Guerrero - 38 (heart attack)
Kronus - 38 (heart failure)
Davey Boy Smith - 39 (heart attack, autospsy specifically mentioned steroids' possible role)
Rick Rude - 40 (heart failure)
Big Boss Man - 42 (heart attack)
Brian Adams (Crush) - 43 (unknown causes, had received shipment of steroids prior to death)
Curt Hennig (Mr. Perfect) - 44

That list only has people I think most wrestling fans would know. Pretty much everyone on that list had used steroids. All but 2 or 3 of them died of heart troubles (and those 2 were known to use steroids and Curt Hennig's father blamed steroids for contributing to his death). Is there a similar number of NFL players dying between the ages of 29-44 from anything, let alone heart issues? If there is, it's news to me. Since the NFL tests for steroids, the use of any type of steroids is much less than it is in professional wrestling. The WWE tests for it now, but only after the Chris Benoit incident attracted so much negative attention for the company. All of the people listed above wrestled before the WWE tested its performers (and not all of them were WWE performers, anyway).

RW81233 wrote:

I was summarizing the 4 main opinions 2 are generally against steroids (not numbers of people on the board of course) and 2 that don't hate them but don't want them in baseball (as you pointed out more people feel that way). i used to think like you cliffy until i started to follow the bonds story and break down why i didn't like steroids, and every time i did the logic i used was always severely flawed. i think we've outlined those flaws all day, yet some people hold on to the belief in the face of logic for various reasons (nostalgia for some sort of "all natural" past, belief in the war on drugs, and so on).

further i find it funny that people causally attribute ill-health conditions to things like steroids. for example Palmeiro can't get it up so it "must be the steroids" (n/m that not getting it up can happen to anyone steroids or not), Bonds head grew (even though his hat size always remained the same) so it "must be the steroids", WWE Wrestlers die (even though they jump off shit into other ridiculously huge bodies 230 days a year) so it "must be the steroids", NFL Players die at about the same rate so it "must be the constant physical abuse that these players go through because they don't use steroids". it's like the fake war on obesity that suggests that fat people are causally unhealthy simply because they are fat even though a critical reading of the peer reviewed research on obesity would show that this causal connection is spurious at best. human bodies and conditions that shape them are far more complex than simple causal relationships.

i thought the hat size thing was a mythology...guess i could be wrong. NFL players and ex-footballers in general live approximately 20-30 years less than the average male (usually dying between 45-55). Those that live longer often suffer with disfigured body parts, or useless limbs, and are essentially left to die (see: Dave Duerson, Fridge Perry, Jim McMahon, and many, many more). These things have developed outside of the dangers of steroids (however true or untrue the dangers are), and, thus brings me back to the question why are we singling out steroids? IF we have already demonstrated that we could give two shits about athletes after their playing days are complete, THEN why are steroids deemed more unnatural, or cheating, etc. than other equally illegal uses of drugs? It's quite simple, since there was already a cultural hatred of steroids stemming from the cold war, a war on steroids makes for great PR. Because if we actually cared about our athletes I'd suggest that just about 0 of them should be on the NBA court right at this moment, that we'd need 200 man rosters for the NFL, 100+ for MLB, and so on.

RW81233 wrote:

http://www.newser.com/story/115668/nikolai-bonds-on-barry-bonds-steroid-use-the-bigger-hat-was-mine.html
(I suppose this is a grain of salt)

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninsca ... ds_and.php
(a little bit more interesting)

so fucking what if his head grew (I know you don't care RW). I'm guessing Bonds' health will be OK, long term. He did what he did, made a lot of dough, took the Giants to a world series, and really should be in the HOF. In fact, the HOF is a joke without him....but the high and mighty sportswriters will keep him out (the same sportswriters who, as someone said, were all over the mcgwire/sosa race even when they had to have known "something was up")