Grief to be labeled as mental disorder

13

Comments

  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    Everybody wants the meds.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,975
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:

    not everything is a big money stealing conspiracy.


    Oh the irony, I'm gonna keep this. ;)


    You know this really just seems to come down to a difference of opinion by the experts. Some think that by doing this, people will get help sooner in the process and that more people will be helped. The others feel that we will be over prescribing medications to people that just need to go through the normal process of grieving.

    Not being a doctor it all seems a little silly to me. Why don't we just leave it up to the individual treating physician to determine what level of care their patient needs for whatever they are dealing with? This is the problem with writing a "bible" of something. It is good for reference, but it most certainly doesn't apply to all. But maybe I'm missing the point here.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    I guess laws are meant to be broken ...

    Kickbacks to Providers from Pharmaceutical Companies Still Going Strong
    by NOLAN AND AUERBACH on NOVEMBER 18, 2011
    Kickbacks from pharmaceutical companies cloud the medical judgment of health care providers and run afoul of federal and state anti-kickback laws. Most prominently, the federal Anti-kickback Act (AKS) was specifically designed to ensure that physicians prescribe drugs based on patient need, not personal greed.

    In recent years, however, pharma companies have become increasingly clever in disguising illegal kickbacks. Most prominent are massive speaker bureaus, speaker programs, and advisory boards, all in an attempt to disguise excessive payments as fees for “speaking engagements,” “consulting services” or “training sessions.” Typically, instead of recruiting speakers and consultants based on their experience or credentials, dishonest companies will target physicians based on their potential prescription-writing volume. Furthermore, once physicians are accepted into their programs, the companies will unofficially require speakers to meet minimum prescription levels. Payment for “Research” and the collection of data are other techniques still used by wayward pharmaceutical companies.

    The AKA is violated when a person or entity makes or accepts payment for referring, recommending or arranging for federally-funded medical items or services, including items or services provided under the Medicare, Medicaid, and TRICARE programs. Violations of the AKA are per se violations of the federal False Claims Act, the government’s primary pharmaceutical fraud-fighting weapon.

    Pharmaceutical companies conduct extensive return-on-investment analysis in devising and implementing sophisticated marketing schemes and programs. Dishonest pharmaceutical companies will skirt the AKA, knowing their bribes will influence prescribing habits and, in turn, result in the provision of goods and services that are more expensive and/or medically unnecessary or even harmful to a vulnerable patient population. Over the last fifteen years, dozens of pharmaceutical companies have shelled out multimillion dollar settlement checks to quiet allegations that they showered doctors with illegal kickbacks. Up to several years ago many kickbacks were blatant bribes, including outright “grants,” tickets to sporting events, and other gifts and benefits.

    Most illegal kickbacks to doctors are thinly-veiled incentives for off-label prescriptions, for uses that do not work. These business practices cause federal and state government health care programs to pay millions of dollars for prescriptions which are ineligible for payment. Notably, while a physician may prescribe a drug off-label, the law prohibits the provider from inking a kickback-tainted prescription for a Government Health Care Program beneficiary.

    The government simply doesn’t have the resources to unravel these schemes, unless pharmaceutical employees and health care providers courageously provide the necessary inside information. For those who do take this stand, the rewards are potentially worth millions.

    For more information about qui tam law and pharmaceutical fraud, contact Nolan and Auerbach, P.A.
    i would be interested to see some actual numbers of doctors on this. there are very few medical doctors that are out and out whores...

    any doctor, particularly a surgeon here that gives any sort of speaking engagement has to disclose any financial relationship with any drug or product company. this the the very first thing they talk about in their presentations. immediately following them introducing themselves they disclose any arrangements with outside companies that they might have....most of the ones here are affiliated with surgical tool or implant companies because they are doing research and using those products to compare them to other ones to publish their research. also, some of these surgeons design tools or implants and are affiliated with a company that will manufacture what they design.

    not everything is a big money stealing conspiracy.
    too true... not everything or everybody, not always either
    but big money is terribly attractive if not corrupting
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    know1 wrote:
    Everybody wants the meds.
    Well, I don't and I am refusing medication.

    I feel people are told they need medication when they do not
    and the first meds lead to another to correct side effects from the first
    then another and another
    so by the time one is leaving this world they are on 12 prescription drugs
    maybe more, this extending life a matter of 5 to 10 years,
    without the quality of life.

    A comic line always come to mind

    " what they don't tell ya it is the five years that you are peeing your pants
    and forgetting your name"

    not funny the older I am getting but a great point.

    When its time to go it's time, its like any relationship, if the quality of the love is not there,
    why stay? this applies to life at least for me, in my opinion.

    I just believe this grief is a mental disorder is again glorifying the use of drugs
    it sends the message that drugs can mask all
    when some things are meant to be felt and worked through by one's self.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Go Beavers wrote:
    Sorry to hear about you and redrock's viewpoint. There are thousands of professionals in the field that are dedicated to their client's well-being and don't support the medical model stance of taking a pill to make it go away. A lot of people are working with societal throwaways, victims of trauma, and people experiencing the whole range of emotional problems. Now, if society would only do a better job to improve access to mental health treatment. That's a different story than the DSM.

    I completely agree with you that there are numerous 'good people' working as it should with people with problems. Unfortunately, there are also a number that, due to lack of funding, time, etc., will go the 'easy' route. But then again, we digress from the OP which speaks about the DSM which is just a classification of symptoms and has nothing to do with suggesting treatment. What is would concern me is how insurance companies, etc. use this info.....
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 25,076
    pandora wrote:
    know1 wrote:
    Everybody wants the meds.
    Well, I don't and I am refusing medication.

    I feel people are told they need medication when they do not
    and the first meds lead to another to correct side effects from the first
    then another and another
    so by the time one is leaving this world they are on 12 prescription drugs
    maybe more, this extending life a matter of 5 to 10 years,
    without the quality of life.

    A comic line always come to mind

    " what they don't tell ya it is the five years that you are peeing your pants
    and forgetting your name"

    not funny the older I am getting but a great point.

    When its time to go it's time, its like any relationship, if the quality of the love is not there,
    why stay? this applies to life at least for me, in my opinion.

    I just believe this grief is a mental disorder is again glorifying the use of drugs
    it sends the message that drugs can mask all
    when some things are meant to be felt and worked through by one's self.
    grief is a physiological process that alters brain chemistry. it is a very time consuming process to fix it. some people need medication to restore the chemical balance. some don't and they heal on their own. most times grief is associated with anxiety, and if one of those two conditions is not treated with meds, the patient does not get better, rather they deteriorate and they become suicidal or their body shuts down on them.

    "dying from a broken heart" is a real thing.

    if given the choice, knowing what i know now, i would take the medication. from a personal and a scientific standpoint there is no reason for me not to. my struggle with depression has been well documented on this forum. i got better and recoverred, and i credit the meds, among a couple of other things, with saving my life.

    i am speaking from my experience. but how many out there do not seek help and end up dead?
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • EmBleve
    EmBleve Posts: 3,019
    pandora wrote:
    Well, I don't and I am refusing medication.

    I feel people are told they need medication when they do not
    and the first meds lead to another to correct side effects from the first
    then another and another
    so by the time one is leaving this world they are on 12 prescription drugs
    maybe more, this extending life a matter of 5 to 10 years,
    without the quality of life.

    A comic line always come to mind

    " what they don't tell ya it is the five years that you are peeing your pants
    and forgetting your name"

    not funny the older I am getting but a great point.

    When its time to go it's time, its like any relationship, if the quality of the love is not there,
    why stay? this applies to life at least for me, in my opinion.

    I just believe this grief is a mental disorder is again glorifying the use of drugs
    it sends the message that drugs can mask all
    when some things are meant to be felt and worked through by one's self.
    Some of what you're saying here may be true, but I wouldn't refuse meds, nor am I a 'drug seeker' which is different than a person who is taking medication as properly prescribed for necessary reasons. If I am having a nervous breakdown after the death of one of my parents, I really hope that a therapist would prescribe me medication temporarily otherwise I will end up under 72 hour observation on a mental ward.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    There are some wonderful options available that get one through the hardest things we face in life
    and none of them are chemicals :D
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    if given the choice, knowing what i know now, i would take the medication. from a personal and a scientific standpoint there is no reason for me not to. my struggle with depression has been well documented on this forum. i got better and recoverred, and i credit the meds, among a couple of other things, with saving my life.

    Couldn't agree more. Appropriate meds combined with other suitable therapies can greatly help with healing and full recovery.

    I tend to believe that depression is depression, whether one goes through a 'natural process' or not. Grieving for a loss is a natural process but is not feeling down and lost after losing a job, separation, etc also a natural process? It would seem that having a clinical classification of depression following those kinds of events is OK but not for grieving (which can be so much worse).
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,844
    I'm not against pharmaceuticals, just very wary of pharmaceutical companies. Serzone (a medication which has been discontinued) greatly helped me through a very difficult time. I would never dream of putting someone down for opting to take anti-depressants if that's what they need to get through a difficult time. At the same time, I think meds are pushed too much through advertising. They have drawbacks and there are other options that should be explored as well.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • EmBleve
    EmBleve Posts: 3,019
    pandora wrote:
    There are some wonderful options available that get one through the hardest things we face in life
    and none of them are chemicals :D
    Sometimes that doesn't work for everybody all the time Pandora. If it does for you, then great. ;)
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,702
    cincybearcat wrote:
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:

    not everything is a big money stealing conspiracy.


    Oh the irony, I'm gonna keep this. ;)


    You know this really just seems to come down to a difference of opinion by the experts. Some think that by doing this, people will get help sooner in the process and that more people will be helped. The others feel that we will be over prescribing medications to people that just need to go through the normal process of grieving.

    Not being a doctor it all seems a little silly to me. Why don't we just leave it up to the individual treating physician to determine what level of care their patient needs for whatever they are dealing with? This is the problem with writing a "bible" of something. It is good for reference, but it most certainly doesn't apply to all. But maybe I'm missing the point here.

    The problem is with how diagnosis and the DSM can be used or misused. The OP is misguided in that it says that the DSM itself is a problem. Diagnosing someone should never be taken lightly. You see individual physicians doing a good job, and you see others not doing a good job. The recommendation is that meds be prescribed in conjunction with therapy, but that doesn't always happen which contributes to the problem of over-medicating people.
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,702
    Jeanwah wrote:
    Go Beavers wrote:
    My question is about the writers of the DSM being swayed by drug companies.

    Are they? Because that's what the public generally thinks of when they read articles like the one in the OP or the video I posted.

    People generally think that, but I would say it's less likely and I would be surprised to hear actual evidence supporting the claim. In this thread, people are making assumptions and running with them.
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 25,076
    pandora wrote:
    There are some wonderful options available that get one through the hardest things we face in life
    and none of them are chemicals :D
    i'm sorry, but not everyone believes in whatever spirituality you subscribe to. so please stop trying to talk it up as if it holds up scientifically with the known research that has been done on these medications. if you don't like them then don't use them. there is nothing wrong with prescription medications that do the things that they claim to do... they helped me when god didn't..
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    edited January 2012
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    There are some wonderful options available that get one through the hardest things we face in life
    and none of them are chemicals :D
    i'm sorry, but not everyone believes in whatever spirituality you subscribe to. so please stop trying to talk it up as if it holds up scientifically with the known research that has been done on these medications. if you don't like them then don't use them. there is nothing wrong with prescription medications that do the things that they claim to do... they helped me when god didn't..
    Did I say anything about God or spirituality ... please don't assume

    I was speaking of meditation, healthy habits, writing has helped me immensely
    through the losses, etc etc.. there are many options that are non intrusive to the body,
    chemicals can have long lasting, perhaps life long, life changing, side effects.

    Look at the birth defects from Zanex that no one knew about ...just horrible
    Post edited by pandora on
  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,361
    I understand when meds are necessary or wanted to help with depression, anxiety etc. But what I'm concerned about is that grief, in and alone what one feels after losing a loved one, should not be listed as a mental disorder. And that's the first feeling I get from reading this article or watching the video I posted. I just feel that it's quite a normal trait that everyone feels at one time or another; whether one feels more help is necessary is highly individualized.

    I tend to go to meds as a last resort, and try to use meditation and yoga ( and the natural herb) to help with life's stressers before going for the chemicals. But I have been on anxiety meds when I was hospitalized and they were very much necessary.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    EmBleve wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    There are some wonderful options available that get one through the hardest things we face in life
    and none of them are chemicals :D
    Sometimes that doesn't work for everybody all the time Pandora. If it does for you, then great. ;)
    Yes not for everyone of course and I know too much about mental health issues...
    bi polar and schizophrenia is in our family and I know the need for meds

    but we are speaking of grief a very normal needed process to grow past
    the loss of a loved one and become whole again to realize the love remains after the loss

    in my opinion it sends the wrong message one we are hearing an awful lot these days...

    make it go away with a pill
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Jeanwah wrote:
    I understand when meds are necessary or wanted to help with depression, anxiety etc. But what I'm concerned about is that grief, in and alone what one feels after losing a loved one, should not be listed as a mental disorder.

    Though grief can be a trigger for mega depression, suicide, causes anxiety, panic attacks, etc. If this can make the medical profession be more aware of the 'signs', helping with early diagnosis and not just shrug off people with grief going deeper than 'normal'. All kinds of conditions (whether mental or physical) which are 'normal' and 'part of life' are aided if needed (childbirth, for example), why not a very difficult process that not all can get through easily?

    My concern is not so much grieving being included in 'depression' but how these classifications are being used by those that have access to this (along with other info), eg insurance companies, hospitals, etc.
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,702
    Jeanwah wrote:
    I understand when meds are necessary or wanted to help with depression, anxiety etc. But what I'm concerned about is that grief, in and alone what one feels after losing a loved one, should not be listed as a mental disorder. And that's the first feeling I get from reading this article or watching the video I posted. I just feel that it's quite a normal trait that everyone feels at one time or another; whether one feels more help is necessary is highly individualized.

    I tend to go to meds as a last resort, and try to use meditation and yoga ( and the natural herb) to help with life's stressers before going for the chemicals. But I have been on anxiety meds when I was hospitalized and they were very much necessary.

    Having bereavement in the DSM isn't saying that it"s not normal. It's just categorizing a particular emotional experience. In a sense, it's even giving more validity to it, not less.

    The DSM doesn't drive medications. Over medicating/inappropriate medicating comes from dynamics between particular M.D.s, insurance companies, and pharmaceutical companies.
  • ledvedderman
    ledvedderman Posts: 7,762
    First off, grief is not a mental disorder. It's part of a healthy process after a tragedy.

    I've been diagnosed as bi-polar for quite some time, and I will say for a fact that the medication does help. Sure, getting the right balance of medications is absolutely pure hell. Once I was able to get the right balance though, the difference was night and day. We're talking about a time length of about 10 years before I came to the realization that something had to be done. My Dr. suggested seeing a psychiatrist way back then, but I refused because I didn't want the bi-polar stigma. I finally caved and the difference is amazing.
    E8toX.gif

    http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm

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