Syria - where's the outrage on the train!!!
Comments
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Byrnzie wrote:Sorry, I must have missed all of the threads you created calling for discussion of the crimes of Syria and other countries.
I'll have a look on page two and see if I can find them.
Or was your real motivation for creating this thread just another attempt to exonerate Israel?
Drowned Out...I did mention it, but only as an example of an issue that is constantly discussed on the board, not because I want to have a discussion about it here. I'm interested in having a broad discussion of why certain international issues are so widely discussed here, while other issues, that are arguably just as important and that involve very similar elements, are totally ignored. I don't want B to turn the whole thread into a discussion of Israel, or to evade issues by constantly playing the "Israel Card."
B, you didn't miss any threads. Don't bother yourself looking. But I did post this thread...so that's apparently 1 more than anyone else. As for intentions, no, my intent is not to exonerate Israel (or America - funny how you keep focusing so intently on Israel in a discussion of Syria). Like I said, criticism of Israel is (sadly) justified much of the time. What I find curious, again, is why certain issues elicit outrage while others do not.
You (and others) say that it's just a matter of what you perceive to be done in your name, by your country, etc. That just seems rather shallow/self-centered to me. It's as if you're saying that you don't really care about injustice, or brutality, or human rights unless it makes you feel bad about your own identity as an American/Brit/etc. It's as if you're saying that it isn't that Palestinians are dying as such that offends you, but that you are offended because US tax dollars may play a role, and that implicates your own self-rightous sense of moral cleanliness. But if it's genocide in Sudan or Rwanda, and your own moral hygiene isn't implicated then who cares. Sorry, that just doesn't work for me.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0 -
Idris, I totally agree that many/most of the region's troubles are rooted in the history of imperialism/colonialims (i'd argue that Britain is probably more to blame than the US, which came to the game rather late in the day). I also agree that we need to elect better leaders. What I don't buy is an argument that says that the only issues we should really care about are those in which we are involved, or that we should disentangle ourselves from all of our involvements, focus solely on our own house, and let whatever happens happen. Clearly, mistakes have been made when it comes to US foreign policy, but that doesn't mean that US involvement abroad, including military involvement, can't be a force for good. I'd argue that the intervention in Kosovo was absolutely the right thing to do. I'd argue that the failure to intervene in Rwanda is a massive stain on the Clinton presidency.
There seems to be this Ron Paul fueled isolationism that people are buying into, which I just don't get. People say that the US shouldn't be the world's policeman. I absolutely disagree. Policeman are necessary. Without them you end up with gangsters running around doing whatever they please. The US is the only superpower standing (though it might soon have some company) and it therefore has a responsibility, in my opinion, to hold things together. Empires have their faults (I actually don't think the US is an empire in the classical sense, certainly not in the same way that Britain was an empire) but they also have their virtues. The people living under the Pax Romana were, for example, arguably better off than their descendants living after the fall of Rome, precisely because the Roman legions were the world's policemen, and kept the peace. Should the US run around the world like a trigger-happy idiot shooting its way into any country it wishes (as was the case under Bush)? No. But does that mean that intervention is not sometimes justified and necessary? Also no.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0 -
yosi wrote:B, you didn't miss any threads. Don't bother yourself looking. But I did post this thread...so that's apparently 1 more than anyone else. As for intentions, no, my intent is not to exonerate Israel (or America - funny how you keep focusing so intently on Israel in a discussion of Syria). Like I said, criticism of Israel is (sadly) justified much of the time. What I find curious, again, is why certain issues elicit outrage while others do not.
You (and others) say that it's just a matter of what you perceive to be done in your name, by your country, etc. That just seems rather shallow/self-centered to me. It's as if you're saying that you don't really care about injustice, or brutality, or human rights unless it makes you feel bad about your own identity as an American/Brit/etc. It's as if you're saying that it isn't that Palestinians are dying as such that offends you, but that you are offended because US tax dollars may play a role, and that implicates your own self-rightous sense of moral cleanliness. But if it's genocide in Sudan or Rwanda, and your own moral hygiene isn't implicated then who cares. Sorry, that just doesn't work for me.
So now you're going to pretend that I could care less about what happened in Rwanda? When was that? 1994? I didn't start posting on this board until 2006. Though I did write to my local paper and my local MP regarding Rwanda at the time. Western countries had a direct hand in influencing what happened down there.
As for Sudan, I accept that I'm probably just as guilty as many millions of other people in not taking enough of an interest in that episode. But you really shouldn't go and use that to add to your many futile attempts to claim that I'm anti-semitic.
If you paid any attention then you'd see that I take an interest in many issues on this board, not just the Israeli occupation.Post edited by Byrnzie on0 -
But it's not shallow or self centererd for you to not want to criticize Israel here because it might help the other side in an argument?yosi wrote:
You (and others) say that it's just a matter of what you perceive to be done in your name, by your country, etc. That just seems rather shallow/self-centered to me. It's as if you're saying that you don't really care about injustice, or brutality, or human rights unless it makes you feel bad about your own identity as an American/Brit/etc. It's as if you're saying that it isn't that Palestinians are dying as such that offends you, but that you are offended because US tax dollars may play a role, and that implicates your own self-rightous sense of moral cleanliness. But if it's genocide in Sudan or Rwanda, and your own moral hygiene isn't implicated then who cares. Sorry, that just doesn't work for me.
I can admit that I haven't posted anything about Syria, first, because I don't start many threads to begin with....but also because I am not very familiar with their history, nor have I taken the time to look beyond the msm reporting of the situation; I refuse to give any opinion on how best to resolve the situation (other than the obvious condemnation of a govt killing its' people) based on msm-only coverage. So personally, my silence on Syria is rooted in ignorance. I can admit that.
On the flip side, your educated, willfull refusal to criticize Israel's settlement expansion is then....what? Deceitful? Borderline malevolent?0 -
B, I really don't want to get into this anti-semitism thing. I didn't bring it up. I'm not bringing it up. Please don't derail this thread.
Drowned...if you don't feel that you know enough about the issue then I of course wouldn't expect you to comment on it. But that just begs the same question driving this thread, only applied to what issues people commenting here choose to learn about.
As for condemnation of settlements, I kinda feel like you and B are Fox Newsing me here. I've repeatedly stated in other threads in no uncertain terms that I do not support the settlements at all, so for you two to claim otherwise here is simply disingenuous.
I don't think it's self-serving for me to choose not to voice my outrage at Israeli actions on this particular forum. In my opinion this forum lacks balance on that issue, so, given what I find to often be an overstatement of the charge against Israel I try to counter what I feel are unjustified criticisms. If I found a discussion of that topic here that I felt was actually balanced and reasonable I would have no issues whatsoever in voicing my own very strong criticisms.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0 -
For example, I have very strong criticisms of Obama, but if I was part of a thread with a bunch of people spewing Fox News rhetoric I'd be arguing with them, not throwing in my own criticisms.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0
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Byrnzie wrote:yosi wrote:given what I find to often be an overstatement of the charge against Israel I try to counter what I feel are unjustified criticisms.
Yeah, right!
Come on. Now you're just being snotty. I'm happy to discuss Israel privately with you, but I don't want to derail this thread with that discussion.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0 -
yosi wrote:Idris, I totally agree that many/most of the region's troubles are rooted in the history of imperialism/colonialims (i'd argue that Britain is probably more to blame than the US, which came to the game rather late in the day). I also agree that we need to elect better leaders. What I don't buy is an argument that says that the only issues we should really care about are those in which we are involved, or that we should disentangle ourselves from all of our involvements, focus solely on our own house, and let whatever happens happen. Clearly, mistakes have been made when it comes to US foreign policy, but that doesn't mean that US involvement abroad, including military involvement, can't be a force for good. I'd argue that the intervention in Kosovo was absolutely the right thing to do. I'd argue that the failure to intervene in Rwanda is a massive stain on the Clinton presidency.
There seems to be this Ron Paul fueled isolationism that people are buying into, which I just don't get. People say that the US shouldn't be the world's policeman. I absolutely disagree. Policeman are necessary. Without them you end up with gangsters running around doing whatever they please. The US is the only superpower standing (though it might soon have some company) and it therefore has a responsibility, in my opinion, to hold things together. Empires have their faults (I actually don't think the US is an empire in the classical sense, certainly not in the same way that Britain was an empire) but they also have their virtues. The people living under the Pax Romana were, for example, arguably better off than their descendants living after the fall of Rome, precisely because the Roman legions were the world's policemen, and kept the peace. Should the US run around the world like a trigger-happy idiot shooting its way into any country it wishes (as was the case under Bush)? No. But does that mean that intervention is not sometimes justified and necessary? Also no.
That's not my argument.
--
and The major difference between the American Empire and the ones that have left the face of the planet is this, Americas ability to manipulate the reality. Almost perfected it, turned it into an art.
So in this way, you are absolutely correct America is not an empire in the classical sense.
As far as being a "force for good", well again, elect the right leaders. Proper actions etc.0 -
'where is my clapping smiley. '
Right on.
The ability to manipulate reality to their own selfish means.
You hit the nail right on the head.0 -
7RayZ wrote:'where is my clapping smiley. '
Right on.
The ability to manipulate reality to their own selfish means.
You hit the nail right on the head.
here it is....>>> :clap:hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say0 -
Fox newsing you? Them's fightin' words!yosi wrote:B, I really don't want to get into this anti-semitism thing. I didn't bring it up. I'm not bringing it up. Please don't derail this thread.
Drowned...if you don't feel that you know enough about the issue then I of course wouldn't expect you to comment on it. But that just begs the same question driving this thread, only applied to what issues people commenting here choose to learn about.
As for condemnation of settlements, I kinda feel like you and B are Fox Newsing me here. I've repeatedly stated in other threads in no uncertain terms that I do not support the settlements at all, so for you two to claim otherwise here is simply disingenuous.
I don't think it's self-serving for me to choose not to voice my outrage at Israeli actions on this particular forum. In my opinion this forum lacks balance on that issue, so, given what I find to often be an overstatement of the charge against Israel I try to counter what I feel are unjustified criticisms. If I found a discussion of that topic here that I felt was actually balanced and reasonable I would have no issues whatsoever in voicing my own very strong criticisms.
Im not really calling on you to denounce the settlement expansion, I've seen you state that you're against them in the past.
It's just a double standard from my perspective:...you called those of us who criticize Israel morally selfish for not criticizing Syria. Then you turn around and say 'it's not self-serving' to criticize Israel. That's twice. I understand WHY, but think you're doing the same thing you accuse us of.
And again, in regards to 'what's driving this thread'....a double standard in that you don't want to turn this into a discussion of Israel when we use it to defend ourselves from your accusations, yet you repeatedly bring up the occupation/conflict as an example of us focusing too much on self-centric topics.
...to which I have to agree with what Idris has been saying: we tend to be more involved in issues we are directly involved in. And it's not just our tax dollars, it's having our governments steered by a foreign interest. Taking an interest in that is common sense, not selfishness. Toss in a massive disinformation campaign in regards to Israel/Palestine that is nearly impossible to ignore, and needs to be countered....and the micro/macro symbolism (esp in Muslim countries) of the occupation of Palestine/the middle east, and I don't think it's inappropriate for us to focus a great deal of energy on peace between Israel, and a sovereign Palestinian state. 0 -
No need to turn the Syrian uprising into a Israel/US debate. The Syrians are not demonstrating against the US and they are not demonstrating against Israel. They are demonstrating for freedom and democracy. The death toll from the violence in Syria has surpassed 5,000, while thousands more Syrians have been detained or are unaccounted for.
Tell the world Bashar is without legitimacy and let the Syrians know you stand with them against the brutal regime of Assad.0 -
Drowned, I don't think it's inappropriate to focus attention on Israel/Palestine, Iraq (perhaps less so now, we'll see), Afghanistan, etc. It's certainly appropriate to focus attention there. My discomfort is with the fact that those issues seem to monopolize attention, and my question is aimed at the possibility that the reason for that monopolization is a preoccupation with the actions of western countries/a strain of third-worldism. I think that the responses of many people here actually tend to prove my point.
Now, that in itself isn't really problematic for me. I recognize, of course, that people will have a greater concern for their own county and its actions. That's fine. If discussions tended to be something along the lines of "I'm American-I don't like what's going on in Iraq-I'm angry that my tax dollars are being used this way-let's all help inform each other about this issue" then I'd have no problem.
But I often find myself feeling that certain issues get a more negative sort of attention, where the dynamic is more rigidly ideological, and the underlying narrative is "western countries are inherently evil, the third-world is inherently good, and to the extent that anyone in the third-world does anything wrong it's really the fault of some western country." This sort of thing really bothers me, especially because the arguments are often made using extremely moralistic language, in the name of human rights, and international law, etc. etc. etc....Excuse me, but how is it not hypocritical to be constantly preaching about universal human rights and international law while having absolute tunnel vision that excludes mention of all atrocities not committed by a western country?!
If you talk the talk you should walk the walk (or in this case talk the talk more extensively ). If your thing is international law, then it's really inexcusable to ignore what's going on in Syria. The argument that you care more about your own country is fine, but then don't get all preachy about international law, cause that's obviously not really your concern.
I guess the reason that I don't think I'm imposing a double standard is as follows. I really have one primary issue on this board, which is Israel. In discussing that issue I believe that I've made clear that I share many of the criticisms voiced by others on the board, but I tend to argue what you might call the "pro-Israel" side rather than give full voice to my own criticisms for reasons I explained above. I generally act responsively and tend not to start threads where I'm flinging around criticisms of one country or another. In the meantime I see a lot of people doing exactly that; starting threads to bash this country or that, often invoking very high minded concepts of universal justice to do so. And yet those threads seem to always target the same very narrow set of actors. I'm simply pointing that out and asking why that is. Since I don't think I'm in the category of people starting these attacks I fail to see how I'm doing what I accuse others of.
I don't know...maybe I just need a better perspective on myself. :?you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0 -
MookiesLaw wrote:No need to turn the Syrian uprising into a Israel/US debate. The Syrians are not demonstrating against the US and they are not demonstrating against Israel. They are demonstrating for freedom and democracy. The death toll from the violence in Syria has surpassed 5,000, while thousands more Syrians have been detained or are unaccounted for.
Tell the world Bashar is without legitimacy and let the Syrians know you stand with them against the brutal regime of Assad.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
And,its not our sandbox.
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Halifax2TheMax wrote:MookiesLaw wrote:No need to turn the Syrian uprising into a Israel/US debate. The Syrians are not demonstrating against the US and they are not demonstrating against Israel. They are demonstrating for freedom and democracy. The death toll from the violence in Syria has surpassed 5,000, while thousands more Syrians have been detained or are unaccounted for.
Tell the world Bashar is without legitimacy and let the Syrians know you stand with them against the brutal regime of Assad.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
And,its not our sandbox.
Peace.
+1you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0 -
yosi wrote:If you talk the talk you should walk the walk (or in this case talk the talk more extensively ). If your thing is international law, then it's really inexcusable to ignore what's going on in Syria. The argument that you care more about your own country is fine, but then don't get all preachy about international law, cause that's obviously not really your concern.
Really? Really? Where have you been for the 8 years of the Bush Administration? International law? We don't need no stinking Inter-national Law. Dick Cheney sold our nation's soul to the devil. International law? Ha! What a concept. League of Nations anyone? Seriously? Ask any citizen of a nation downtrodden by the "benevolence" of the USA and see what they say. Chile? Paraguay? Phillipines? El Salvador? Nicarauga? Vietnam? Cambodia? Laos? Panama? Argentina? Iran? Iraq? Mexico? Turkey? Greece? Old Europe? Lebanon? Seriously? The last time the USA had "moral clarity" was WW2, when doing the "right" thing was about moral fiber and not "economic opportunity." If Syria had oil, we'd be there by now. Hence, why not the outrage from the Republifucks on not supporting "democracy" in Syria. And hence, when Obama supported the overthrow of Ghaddify, it was criticism? Why? We Americans are only "benevolent" or interested in freedom or democracy when there is a "business" interest. As for Israel, time to man up and start solving their own problems. And Syria is not "our" problem. Oh, and maybe WAR fatigue has set in and we're sick and tired and out of money and see what is happening to our people and our democracy that we just frankly, don't give a shit. Tough. Figure it out. Pull yourself up by your boot straps and deal. Stand up, solve it yourself. You don't need nor want the US involved. Again, not our sandbox. Nothing personal but move to Israel, join the army and fight. Or send your dollars to support their government. But please stop asking me to defend and pay for a corrupt regime. On both sides, Syria and Israel.
Peace.09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR; 05/03/2025, New Orleans, LA;
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MookiesLaw, this thread started out with a dual character.
This thread is not simply about the 'Syrian uprising', so it did not turn into anything MookiesLaw, rather remained on the exact course Yosi initially put it towards. I mean it's all in the thread title 'Syria-where's the outrage on the train!!!' So Yosi is asking and wondering about the physiological aspect of the M Train and it's focuses pertaining to issues that obviously to an extent Yosi in on slight opposites of.
and Yosi you said,
"But I often find myself feeling that certain issues get a more negative sort of attention, where the dynamic is more rigidly ideological, and the underlying narrative is "western countries are inherently evil, the third-world is inherently good, and to the extent that anyone in the third-world does anything wrong it's really the fault of some western country." This sort of thing really bothers me, especially because the arguments are often made using extremely moralistic language, in the name of human rights, and international law, etc. etc. etc...."
For that Yosi, perhaps it's better to provide more examples.
Like I'm really curious about this,0 -
It's a feeling developed over a bunch of years, so I don't have an precise example that jumps to mind, but I'll go searching and let you know...it's also not really expressed quite so blatantly. I think it's more of a world-view that seeps through.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0
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