Blast rocks central Oslo, Norway PM's office

cincybearcat wrote:

Look. I agree with you about gun control. But trying to compare a country that had a population of 296 million in 2005 to one that has a population of 4.6 million in 2005 is fairly absurd. No doubt the US per capita numbers are not good, but there is no way you can compare.

So, no matter what Norway does and works (or doesn't) for them, the US needs to find it's own solution to this issue. It is far more complex here.

i'll agree ... gun control isn't the answer in the US ... it's really societal and cultural ...

usamamasan1 wrote:

Rubbish

Ever think if some of the victims had a piece this would not have gone so far?

you know, after re-reading this post, this sounds like a job for Captain Hindsight, A former news reporter that has gained the power of extraordinary hindsight through a freak accident involving a retroactive spider, and his sidekicks, Shoulda, Woulda, and Coulda...

i need to mention,that i admire the people of Norway,how proud are and how this make them become one..
thats how Democracy must be..respect...

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Look. I agree with you about gun control. But trying to compare a country that had a population of 296 million in 2005 to one that has a population of 4.6 million in 2005 is fairly absurd. No doubt the US per capita numbers are not good, but there is no way you can compare.

So, no matter what Norway does and works (or doesn't) for them, the US needs to find it's own solution to this issue. It is far more complex here.

the numbers do generalize. you have to take the percentages of gun deaths per population. and i am sure that the united states would have a higher gun murder rate per capita. or let's make it easier. we have more gun murders per 100,000.

Right, as I said, the US per capita numbers are not good.

But my other point was the difference between a 300 million and a 5 million population country is not just linear. That big an increase in humans leads to a ridiculous amount of issues that arise. So what works for Norway might not work directly for the US, and vice versa. So, it's not as simple as comparing apples to apples.

One thing I've learned in the midwest, there are a lot of very nice, safety oriented people with a lot of guns...and they want to keep them. And, they are actually used for hunting, which whether or not you agree with it, is very different then the gun use we are talking about here. And most of that hunting is done not just for sports (let's not kid ourselves, there is plenty of food at the grocery store, so people that still hunt do so for the enjoyment of the activity, not to feed their families for the most part) but at least they are using the animal for food.

And not too mention, these are the areas with the LEAST amount of killings from guns per capita. So, I can see how it's tough for them to want to give up their hobby that they do safely for the greater good of the country as a whole...or at least regulate it more closely which results in them paying $ when they aren't causing the problem.

cincybearcat wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

4 dead in one state in one day.

I'm not really sure I get the angle of that article you posted previously...unless it is just suppose to be stupid.

Trying to compare 70 deaths in 1 instance to random killing across a over 300 million population is just that, stupid.

What this situation shows is just how difficult it is to defend/protect against 1 crazy person who happens to get an automatic weapon (despite any strict gun laws). What we need to do in the US is to figure out how to eliminate all the smaller shootings that occur because of the convenience of guns when arguments happen. Too very different things imo.

how is it difficult to understand that the united states as a country has that same number of gun deaths EVERY DAY? they are so common here that it is impossible for the news to report them all.

what happened in Norway was a terrible, terrible thing, and i am in no way discounting that, but the us has a much bigger problem with gun violence. they are way too accessable. i think it is our culture. it is ok to show gratuitous violence on network tv and in video games, but if you see a boob on the super bowl halftime show the entire country is outraged and calling on the fcc to fine people.. our standards for what is permissable is completely fucked in this country. i think showing a little more nudity on tv and a little less violence might possibly be a good thing. i believe that Norway is going to learn from this tragedy and will become a better country for having experienced this and been brought together by it. similar to how we came together after 9/11. but i'll tell ya what, i guarantee there was no significant lull in gun murders here after 9/11 while all of us were shocked and united.

cincybearcat wrote:

Jason P wrote:

I would like better safeguards in acquiring guns, but until the Democrats step up to the plate, it isn't going to happen.

Well, I would like to think that the law-abiding citizens that like guns would take the lead on this to protect their rights while still doing the right thing...but unfortunately they have not. They sit back and scream "You can't take my guns" and fight any and all gun control measures. It's too bad, because they could help themselves by being a participant in the process rather than screaming bs and blocking EVERYTHING.

i agree with you here cincy. i think it is both parties to be blamed. yes the democrats are spineless, and the republicans are paranoid. remember how ammo sales went up as soon as obama won the election because "he is gonna take our guns!!" i think that the nra is paranoid to even engage in debate or put the issue up for the people to decide in a general election, because i am pretty sure that more people would vote for some gun control over what we have now. the nra and the republicans cling to that second ammendment just as a drowning man clings to a rescue ring. you can not have a debate when one side refuses to even come to the debate podium.

i wish the dems would hold on to defending entitlements as voraciously as the gop defends the right to have their guns.

chadwick wrote:

is this thread about Norway or U.S. gun laws? i think some of you are out of order.

that is all.

chadwick wrote:

is this thread about Norway or U.S. gun laws? i think some of you are out of order.

that is all.

you knew it was going to come up. the guy only killed 70 something people with a gun...

and if you really want to get technical, go back to the original post. it was about the actual bombing, because that was all that had happend at the time the thread was posted. you have been around here long enough to know that threads evolve as more information comes to light. correct me if i am wrong, but weren't you one of the posters wanting to talk about the death penalty in a country where no dp exists and is not even an option in this same thread?

so yeah, thread integrity is important, but when more information comes out and the more people are in here wanting to discuss things, the topics change some and the thread evolves.

not a christian???
sounds like he wants to be a crusader to me..

How did the medieval Knights Templar influence Norway gunman?

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/did ... 12473.html

In his 1,500-page manifesto, confessed Norwegian mass killer Anders Behring Breivik claimed allegiance to a resurrected version of the Knights Templar, a medieval formation of Christian soldiers who waged brutal battle against Islam for control of the Holy Land and its relics. Breivik also wrote favorably of the mentorship of a British man known as "Richard (the Lionhearted)," who he credits for imparting to him the secrets of the Templar tradition.

In an exclusive report, AP correspondent Simon Haydon writes that he has located "Richard," whose actual name is Paul Ray, living in exile in Malta. In an interview with Haydon, Ray confirmed that he is associated with "a loose group of anti-Islamic extremists inspired by the Knights Templar," but denied that Breivik was associated with the group, or that he had served as Breivik's mentor.

"My thoughts are the same ... that there is a threat to our way of life from Islam. I'm not going to say I don't think there is, because I do," Ray told Haydon. Ray writes an anti-Muslim blog called "Lionheart" after King Richard I of England, who lead 12th-century Christian crusades.


Ray told the AP that he has embraced the Templar tradition in an effort to drive home the threat of Muslim immigration. "Muslims in (England) trying to take over our country. Let's not pretend it's not happening. They are actively declaring their vision to take our country over." He told the AP he did not approve of Breivik's methods, however.

That's not to say that the original Knights were at all peace-loving; quite the contrary. As Time writer Ishaan Tharoor notes, the Knights Templar formed at the site of the al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, which fell into Christian control after the first crusade of 1099, and were known as ruthless warriors. And while the Knights tried to cultivate an image as ascetic spiritual pilgrims, they extorted enormous gold and precious-metal tributes from Jewish and Muslim subjects in the Middle East, as well as among the unfortunate Christian populations in Europe who came into their path.

That history, indeed, accounts for the order's best known pop culture legacies, Dashiell Hammett to Dan Brown. After the Templars were dissolved in 1312, a later religious order based on the island of Malta (where now makes Ray's home in solidarity with the order's aims) continued hoarding gold and precious stones--and thereby furnished the inspiration for the bloody intrigue in Hammett's hardboiled suspense novel, "The Maltese Falcon," and the classic John Huston film of the same name. The order has continued to claim a prominent place in modern-day fables of shadowy conspiracy. As legions of "Da Vinci Code" readers well know, the group is a favorite hobbyhorse of pulp-antiquarian novelist Dan Brown.

Nor is the order's latter-day appeal confined to fiction writers and fringe anti-immigrant figures in Europe. As hard-core advocates of white ethnic purity, Breivik and Ray would no doubt be baffled to learn that a new Mexican drug cartel calls itself the Knights Templar. According to a report in Al Jazeera, this latest twist on the Templar legend was the brainchild of a schoolteacher named Servando Gomez, who has members dress up in full medieval Templar regalia, and swear out loyalty oaths in blood. While the group professes to devote itself to philanthropic works--including drug rehabilitation centers in Gomez's home province of Michoacan--it is an offshoot of La Familia, the second most powerful and lethally violent drug cartel in Mexico. In other words, while the historic Knights of Templar are long gone, claimants to its legacy are continuing to honor, consciously or otherwise, its tangled legacy of blood, piety, and treasure.



Paul Ray in Malta. His sweatshirt bears a Templar cross.