Why isn't abortion considered murder?

cincybearcat wrote:

_ wrote:

So I guess more specific questions would be: Since your position on forced birth is motivated by a desire to protect the people who will result from these births, how do you address the fact that you will also be forcing harm upon many of these people, whose values about which "harm" is worse might differ from yours? How is it your right to impose your values upon potential people? How is it in anyone's best interest to do so without regard for individual circumstances, including social ones? And how will you resolve the trauma (to individuals & society) that will result?

Let's be honest here....you are never going to think what I say is ok. You never have. That's ok, we disagree.

Again, the funny thing to me here, is as I've already stated numerous times, I'm NOT SURE we could get to the point of making it illegal/criminal. But I would love to because I believe it would be protecting life.

As for imposing my values on other people...my values also include not murdering an innocent human being that is already born. Seems like we have laws against that. I wonder why that's ok? You should know by now where this dance leads with you and me, a disagreement about when life begins.

As for resolving all the trauma that result from what my policy would be, #1 it would be limited due to the stuff I already mentioned. It would be dealt with on a case by case basis with an improved process for adoption and support for the mother (mental health as well as physical), etc. No use in getting specific in this as it's just an extension of the same process that should be used to minimize abortions even if they are legal.

Why is it that I have to answer all these questions about what my beliefs would do to people, but no Pro-Choice person ever discusses what their opinion on the matter leads to, which in the eyes of those that oppose abortion is the killing of an unborn baby? How do you tend to resolve the trauma your viewpoint causes? I guess that trauma is kinda final and once disposed of nothing left to deal with.

Anyhow, I do respect your opinion and your reasoning behind your opinion. It just continues to amaze me that no one seems to be able to respect the opinion of someone not wanting unborn babies to be terminated. You can disagree with the reasoning (when life begins) but it seems like a very reasonable thing that someone that believes that collection of cells is human life (because without an intervention it will be born a human baby) would be against abortion, no?

Yes, we have discussed abortion many times before, but I don't believe we've ever addressed the very valid point brought up by GTFLYGIRL. And, though I disagree with your conclusion, I am quite capable of acknowledging good logic if/when I see it. I'm just asking you to explain your logic and how all parts of your position reconcile with one another, which I think is reasonable. Don't you agree?

I know you've said many times that you're not sure we could get to the point where abortion is illegal, but that doesn't negate the fact that you would like it to be illegal, which is what we're discussing.

My values also include not murdering people, "innocent" or otherwise. The reason why it's okay to have laws against that, since you asked, is because those people want to continue to live & murdering them would infringe upon their right to make that decision. It's a pro-choice law, and that's the difference between murder laws and anti-choice laws - with murder laws, the rights/desires of the individual are respected. Pro-life anti-choice laws, however, are no better than mandatory abortion anti-choice laws would be. So a better analogy to living people would be laws FORCING people to remain alive at all costs, including remaining on life support, even if it's not in their best interest. Do you believe we should have a law like this? If not, why is it not okay to force a born person to continue life at all costs,on life support, regardless of circumstance, but it's okay to force an "unborn person" to so do?

Actually, this has nothing to do with a disagreement about when life begins. That's not actually particularly relevant to my opinion on abortion. I only share my opinion about when personhood begins because it's relevant to other people's opinions. I actually agree with you about when life begins. Yes, a cluster of living cells is alive. (Of course, my appendix was alive too, until I had it surgically removed, but no one seems to be up in arms about that.)

Regarding your statement about the limitation of trauma, does that mean you don't think abortion should be made illegal unless we can guarantee that these measures are successfully in place to limit the harmful consequences? If so, how limited will they have to be? What level of harm to the people who would be born is acceptable?

I think it's fair to ask you to reconcile the trauma your position would cause because there is absolute evidence that forcing people to be born into bad circumstances is sometimes harmful to them (not to mention the other, already living people to whom it's harmful). We see it every single day (though some people are privileged to be able to see less of it and disregard what they do see). On the other hand, there is absolutely no evidence that discontinuing a pregnancy is harmful to anyone. None. That idea is based ENTIRELY on personal values. There are many, many people who tell us their lives are horrible and they would prefer to have never been born. There has never once been an aborted fetus who indicated to us in any way that it would have preferred to be born. And even if fetuses could have opinions about such things, their opinions & values would vary, which is why it has to be a matter of personal choice.

Yes, it seems a very reasonable thing that someone who believes a fetus is a person AND believes that life at all costs is more important than the consequences would be against abortion - for herself, for his/her own fetus/situation - and I can respect that. But what I & others can't respect is when people take it a step further to say that everyone else in the world should have to follow their personal beliefs, regardless of the situation. I don't think that's any different than if I were to say that I don't think a fetus is a life and I think life is never valuable and therefore everyone in the world should be forced to follow my beliefs and terminate all their pregnancies. That wouldn't be very fair or logical, would it?

cincybearcat wrote:

_ wrote:

On the other hand, there is absolutely no evidence that discontinuing a pregnancy is harmful to anyone. None.

Ummmm...except of course the unborn child that is killed, right?

The fact that life doesn't continue doesn't necessarily constitute harm (especially if an organism doesn't have a consciousness). That's just one opinion with no solid evidence to back it up. I can respect it as an opinion, but not as a fact.

cincybearcat wrote:

As for all of your other questions, I will try to remember to come back to them, but I honestly don't feel like it at this point.

I will just say, there are people that say they wish they were never born. Of course they never got to make that choice, and in abortions they still don't. Someone else is imposing their will and values upon them. Just like you think I am.

I understand that the potential mother is imposing her will & values upon her potential child - whether she decides to continue or discontinue the pregnancy. I just think that this decision should be made on an individual basis. I also believe that, given the inability of anyone to express his will before he is born (when he likely has no will anyway), the mother is the best proxy - not any old random person who doesn't even know the situation.

So, since someone else ALWAYS has to make decisions on behalf of the potential person, I guess my question is why you think you are the most appropriate person to be making these decisions for everyone. And do you think you're more qualified than the mother to make all the other decisions she makes on behalf of the fetus too?

cincybearcat wrote:

_ wrote:

So, since someone else ALWAYS has to make decisions on behalf of the potential person, I guess my question is why you think you are the most appropriate person to be making these decisions for everyone. And do you think you're more qualified than the mother to make all the other decisions she makes on behalf of the fetus too?

Interesting question and phrasing...I would say because "my" decision allows them to make decisions for themselves once they are able. I see where you are coming from though.

I see your point. But, in reality, no one is ever able to decide for themselves whether or not to be born. So you are necessarily taking this decision away from the potential person (and his/her proxy). They don't have this option once they are born. They are left only with the option to commit suicide, which I think most people consider to be a completely different option. It's also an option that isn't really viable until the person has possibly suffered for at least, say, 10-15 years. So I think that leaves as back at square one with the question: Who is best qualified to make the decision about whether to allow this to happen to this child, and should it be made without regard to circumstance or on an individual basis?

AzWicker wrote:

I just wish all the pro choicers would also be against the death penalty, that they would donante an extra 30% of their income to the welware system and adopt at least one unwanted child per household before they even speak to another person regarding abortion. Quit preaching and put your money where your mouth is. Then I would be ok with Pro Lifers. However, if life is a test by God, then freewill must come into play.

Blah blah blah... I just wish all The God loving people weren't also closet child molesters.

When all the priests stop molesting children, I will be OK with religious people.

Byrnzie wrote:

OnTheEdge wrote:

Kill the unborn babies.....save the people that kill them after they are born. The life of a liberal.

As if this issue has anything to do with being liberal or conservative.

What this comes down to is simply a difference between close-minded control freaks, and those of us with an iota of compassion and understanding of the needs of others.

For most people life stopped being a black and white cartoon at about the age of 6 or 7.

to be perfectly honest steve.. the thought that any man thinks he can tell me what to do with my body is beyond reprehensible. im so fucking tired of 'well meaning' people telling me what i can and cant do.. what i should and shouldnt do.. why im going to a hell i dont believe in. im tired of people thinking they can judge me as if they are beyond reproach.. but mostly what im tired of is the hypocrites. am i perfect? hardly.. but if youre gonna come at me, you(generally speaking) better be.

catefrances wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

OnTheEdge wrote:

Kill the unborn babies.....save the people that kill them after they are born. The life of a liberal.

As if this issue has anything to do with being liberal or conservative.

What this comes down to is simply a difference between close-minded control freaks, and those of us with an iota of compassion and understanding of the needs of others.

For most people life stopped being a black and white cartoon at about the age of 6 or 7.

to be perfectly honest steve.. the thought that any man thinks he can tell me what to do with my body is beyond reprehensible. im so fucking tired of 'well meaning' people telling me what i can and cant do.. what i should and shouldnt do.. why im going to a hell i dont believe in. im tired of people thinking they can judge me as if they are beyond reproach.. but mostly what im tired of is the hypocrites. am i perfect? hardly.. but if youre gonna come at me, you(generally speaking) better be.

And where will it end? What other decisions do people think it's their right to take from potential mothers just because they believe they're better qualified to judge what's best for the "baby"? The possibilities are endless. And we already have a precedent for this - a long history of men trying to control women's bodies, paternalistically claiming that they know what's best better than we do. And this is still happening all over the world, including here.

Byrnzie wrote:

What this comes down to is simply a difference between close-minded control freaks, and those of us with an iota of compassion and understanding of the needs of others.

In shocking news, I disagree with you completely.

Personally I think their are closed-minded people on both sides of this argument that never get past their point of view in order to try and understand the other. But I also think there are some on both sides that are open-minded to the discussion and BOTH sides have compassion, just for different people in the equation.