Why isn't abortion considered murder?

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  • brandon10
    brandon10 Posts: 1,114
    Well Cincy, I'll just have to disagree with you and hope things never move in your direction regarding abortion.

    I think there are much greater problems in this world effecting our society than wether or not people are having abortions. I'll leave it at that. This discussion could go on forever. And we both know that we can't change anyones minds. But it's still nice to have a civil discussion concerning such a passionate issue sometimes.
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,830
    brandon10 wrote:
    Well Cincy, I'll just have to disagree with you and hope things never move in your direction regarding abortion.

    I think there are much greater problems in this world effecting our society than wether or not people are having abortions. I'll leave it at that. This discussion could go on forever. And we both know that we can't change anyones minds. But it's still nice to have a civil discussion concerning such a passionate issue sometimes.

    Yep, I don't expect to change people's minds on this issue anymore. And I certainly have come a long way in respecting the alternate opinion. It can go on forever.

    Although I will say, I think you'd like the majority of what I think needs to happen (it's all about limiting the need for abortions). You probably just don't like the end. And to be honest, I'd be happy just to get further down the road.
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  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,050
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Not overnight. It's too much a part of our society to just make it illegal and think everything will be ok. But I think we should work towards making it illegal and charging people with murder. Would be an expensive and long plan to get there (maybe never get to that point) but I think we'd benefit greatly as a society.
    am i missing something? i do not get your assertion that making mothers bear unplanned, or unwanted, or severely handicapped babies benefits society. we can not even feed the people we have already. and when kids are born with deformities and handicaps and severe mental retardation it is your tax dollars that pays for them in the form of medicare.

    i highly disagree with charging people who have abortions with murder. in that case there are a few people in this thread, good, upstanding members of society and good members of this forum, people that you know from reading their posts, people whose character you are familiar with, that in your opinion should be charged with murder. i can not go for that. those people made decisions that they have to live with the rest of their lives. it is nobody's responsiblilty to sit in judgement of what they have done or the choice that they made. i do not feel that charging them with a crime over a medical procedure is the way we need to be going in this country. what is next, a pregnant woman falls down and the fetus dies are you going to charge the mom with gross negligence or manslaughter?

    the precedent has been established. women have the right to choose. it is settled law. i don't like abortion any more than you do, but i love the fact that women are free enough to decide for themselves and that nobody can stand in their way or force them to do something that they do not want to do. not to mention the health issues associated with high risk pregnancies. what you are suggesting is like giving women the right to vote then taking it away. once you grant a right, you can not take it away.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Thats funny, why don't you check the stats on which party gives the most money to charities.
    You can not claim to be for choice if you are denying the baby the right to live...

    the embryo has no choice because it cant make one. it doesnt have the capacity to make a choice. i as the person carrying the developing cells can make that choice and so i will. its MY choice, no one elses. in utero beings have no rights and at the stage of development most embryos are aborted, they shouldnt. the law protects me... which is as it should be.
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    HeidiJam wrote:
    I do unsterstand that there are grey areas. But lets not act as if this example is the reason that ALL people are getting abortions.

    people? PEOPLE dont get abortions.. WOMEN get abortions. lets be very clear on that point.

    what does it matter what the reason is for getting an abortion? whose business is it? do i like that abortion not be used as a form of birth control? sure... maybe... but its not my place to force motherhood or full term preganancies on any woman.
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  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    catefrances wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    I do unsterstand that there are grey areas. But lets not act as if this example is the reason that ALL people are getting abortions.

    people? PEOPLE dont get abortions.. WOMEN get abortions. lets be very clear on that point.

    what does it matter what the reason is for getting an abortion? whose business is it? do i like that abortion not be used as a form of birth control? sure... maybe... but its not my place to force motherhood or full term preganancies on any woman.
    I didn't know women were FORCED to get pregnant??? When did this happen?
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    catefrances wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Thats funny, why don't you check the stats on which party gives the most money to charities.
    You can not claim to be for choice if you are denying the baby the right to live...

    the embryo has no choice because it cant make one. it doesnt have the capacity to make a choice. i as the person carrying the developing cells can make that choice and so i will. its MY choice, no one elses. in utero beings have no rights and at the stage of development most embryos are aborted, they shouldnt. the law protects me... which is as it should be.
    Quick question, why do they not have rights, is it because they are dependant on someone else to live???
    Your first sentence also described a day old baby. An in utero being is still a developing human being, where do you draw the line when its given rights as a human? So your perfectly fine with 9 month abortions then???
    Because its still an in utero being right?
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    HeidiJam wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    I do unsterstand that there are grey areas. But lets not act as if this example is the reason that ALL people are getting abortions.

    people? PEOPLE dont get abortions.. WOMEN get abortions. lets be very clear on that point.

    what does it matter what the reason is for getting an abortion? whose business is it? do i like that abortion not be used as a form of birth control? sure... maybe... but its not my place to force motherhood or full term preganancies on any woman.
    I didn't know women were FORCED to get pregnant??? When did this happen?

    who said they were?

    im talking about forcing then to continue with an unwanted pregnancy... where the result is either motherhood or a full term pregnancy... which is what you do when you take away abortion as a choice.
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    HeidiJam wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Thats funny, why don't you check the stats on which party gives the most money to charities.
    You can not claim to be for choice if you are denying the baby the right to live...

    the embryo has no choice because it cant make one. it doesnt have the capacity to make a choice. i as the person carrying the developing cells can make that choice and so i will. its MY choice, no one elses. in utero beings have no rights and at the stage of development most embryos are aborted, they shouldnt. the law protects me... which is as it should be.
    Quick question, why do they not have rights, is it because they are dependant on someone else to live???
    Your first sentence also described a day old baby. An in utero being is still a developing human being, where do you draw the line when its given rights as a human? So your perfectly fine with 9 month abortions then???
    Because its still an in utero being right?

    they have no rights cause thats the law. my sovereignty over my own body can not be trepassed against.

    and where did i say im fine with 9 month gestation abortions?

    i see you chose to address the part where i said in utero beings have no rights and dismissed the part following where i said and at the stage of development most embryos are aborted they shouldnt.


    would i abort a 9 month old foetus? no i wouldnt. would i abort a 6 week old embryo??? maybe.. maybe not.. but at least id have that choice.
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    zarocat wrote:
    GTFLYGIRL wrote:
    InHiding80 wrote:
    It's not entirely murder because some of these cases are related to incest.

    huh?!? :?

    +1


    +2
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  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    catefrances wrote:
    they have no rights cause thats the law. my sovereignty over my own body can not be trepassed against.

    and where did i say im fine with 9 month gestation abortions?

    i see you chose to address the part where i said in utero beings have no rights and dismissed the part following where i said and at the stage of development most embryos are aborted they shouldnt.


    would i abort a 9 month old foetus? no i wouldnt. would i abort a 6 week old embryo??? maybe.. maybe not.. but at least id have that choice.
    Why would you abort at 6 weeks yet not at 9 months? Are you basing this decision on physical apperance?
    How very primal of you.
  • keeponrockin
    keeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    HeidiJam wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    they have no rights cause thats the law. my sovereignty over my own body can not be trepassed against.

    and where did i say im fine with 9 month gestation abortions?

    i see you chose to address the part where i said in utero beings have no rights and dismissed the part following where i said and at the stage of development most embryos are aborted they shouldnt.


    would i abort a 9 month old foetus? no i wouldnt. would i abort a 6 week old embryo??? maybe.. maybe not.. but at least id have that choice.
    Why would you abort at 6 weeks yet not at 9 months? Are you basing this decision on physical apperance?
    How very primal of you.
    I'd base it on a pragmatic standpoint. Be kind of like quitting a marathon 25.5 miles in instead of at the 3 mile mark.
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  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,050
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Why would you abort at 6 weeks yet not at 9 months? Are you basing this decision on physical apperance?
    How very primal of you.
    why do you think pregnancy is divided into trimesters? because a 6 week old embryo is very very different from a 9 month old fetus....

    i think the unwillingness to see any gray in any of these situations suggests very poor, primative reasoning skills, which in actuality is very primal.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    HeidiJam wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    they have no rights cause thats the law. my sovereignty over my own body can not be trepassed against.

    and where did i say im fine with 9 month gestation abortions?

    i see you chose to address the part where i said in utero beings have no rights and dismissed the part following where i said and at the stage of development most embryos are aborted they shouldnt.


    would i abort a 9 month old foetus? no i wouldnt. would i abort a 6 week old embryo??? maybe.. maybe not.. but at least id have that choice.
    Why would you abort at 6 weeks yet not at 9 months? Are you basing this decision on physical apperance?
    How very primal of you.

    why would anyone abort at 9 months?

    and no i am not basing my decision on appearance. i am basing my decision on the developmental stage of the embryo, my state of mind at the time and my ability to look after a child i gave birth to. oh sure i guess i could go to term and just give up my child :roll: ... no i couldnt.

    an abortion at 6 weeks would be less traumatic for me. yes thats right.. ME. and yes i said LESS traumatic cause do not think for a second this decision is an easy one for a woman to make.
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  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Why would you abort at 6 weeks yet not at 9 months? Are you basing this decision on physical apperance?
    How very primal of you.
    why do you think pregnancy is divided into trimesters? because a 6 week old embryo is very very different from a 9 month old fetus....

    i think the unwillingness to see any gray in any of these situations suggests very poor, primative reasoning skills, which in actuality is very primal.
    Haha, I do see the "situations" as gray areas.
    But I am not sure I see the gray areas in terms of a developing human beings... You are either killing a human being or your not... Which is it?
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    HeidiJam wrote:
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Why would you abort at 6 weeks yet not at 9 months? Are you basing this decision on physical apperance?
    How very primal of you.
    why do you think pregnancy is divided into trimesters? because a 6 week old embryo is very very different from a 9 month old fetus....

    i think the unwillingness to see any gray in any of these situations suggests very poor, primative reasoning skills, which in actuality is very primal.
    Haha, I do see the "situations" as gray areas.
    But I am not sure I see the gray areas in terms of a developing human beings... You are either killing a human being or your not... Which is it?

    not.
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  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    catefrances wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    they have no rights cause thats the law. my sovereignty over my own body can not be trepassed against.

    and where did i say im fine with 9 month gestation abortions?

    i see you chose to address the part where i said in utero beings have no rights and dismissed the part following where i said and at the stage of development most embryos are aborted they shouldnt.


    would i abort a 9 month old foetus? no i wouldnt. would i abort a 6 week old embryo??? maybe.. maybe not.. but at least id have that choice.
    Why would you abort at 6 weeks yet not at 9 months? Are you basing this decision on physical apperance?
    How very primal of you.

    why would anyone abort at 9 months?

    and no i am not basing my decision on appearance. i am basing my decision on the developmental stage of the embryo, my state of mind at the time and my ability to look after a child i gave birth to. oh sure i guess i could go to term and just give up my child :roll: ... no i couldnt.

    an abortion at 6 weeks would be less traumatic for me. yes thats right.. ME. and yes i said LESS traumatic cause do not think for a second this decision is an easy one for a woman to make.
    Same reason people justify their decisions on developmental stages. 9 months is still a dvelopmental stage right?
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    catefrances wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    why do you think pregnancy is divided into trimesters? because a 6 week old embryo is very very different from a 9 month old fetus....

    i think the unwillingness to see any gray in any of these situations suggests very poor, primative reasoning skills, which in actuality is very primal.
    Haha, I do see the "situations" as gray areas.
    But I am not sure I see the gray areas in terms of a developing human beings... You are either killing a human being or your not... Which is it?

    not.
    When in your opinion is it a human being then?
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,050
    HeidiJam wrote:
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Why would you abort at 6 weeks yet not at 9 months? Are you basing this decision on physical apperance?
    How very primal of you.
    why do you think pregnancy is divided into trimesters? because a 6 week old embryo is very very different from a 9 month old fetus....

    i think the unwillingness to see any gray in any of these situations suggests very poor, primative reasoning skills, which in actuality is very primal.
    Haha, I do see the "situations" as gray areas.
    But I am not sure I see the gray areas in terms of a developing human beings... You are either killing a human being or your not... Which is it?
    how about you research it and report back to us. i am not repeating myself and my positions on this topic. you have not answered any questions i have posed to you.

    so i ask you again. what effect on you personally would it have if my girlfriend had an abortion?

    and also. you never replied to the post that byrnzie asked for your opinion on that brought you back into this thread........
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    catefrances wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    why do you think pregnancy is divided into trimesters? because a 6 week old embryo is very very different from a 9 month old fetus....

    i think the unwillingness to see any gray in any of these situations suggests very poor, primative reasoning skills, which in actuality is very primal.
    Haha, I do see the "situations" as gray areas.
    But I am not sure I see the gray areas in terms of a developing human beings... You are either killing a human being or your not... Which is it?

    not.
    When in your opinion is it a human being then?

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