Why isn't abortion considered murder?

brandon10 wrote:

I can't even take this seriously. I tried to show you the ridiculousness of your Nazi comparison, but you continue the embarrassment.

Sorry to repeat myself :oops:

arq wrote:

*Logical fallacy:
-The Hitler card

AKA:
* Argumentum ad Nazium
* Reductio ad Hitlerum

Forms:
Adolf Hitler accepted idea I.
Therefore, I must be wrong.

Examples:
Hitler was in favor of euthanasia.
Therefore, euthanasia is wrong.

The Nazis favored eugenics.
Therefore, eugenics is wrong.

Counter-Examples:
Hitler was a vegetarian.
Therefore, vegetarianism is wrong.

The Nazis were conservationists.
Therefore, conservationism is wrong.

*In logic and rhetoric, a fallacy is incorrect reasoning in argumentation resulting in a misconception. By accident or design, fallacies may exploit emotional triggers in the listener or interlocutor (e.g. appeal to emotion), or take advantage of social relationships between people (e.g. argument from authority). Fallacious arguments are often structured using rhetorical patterns that obscure the logical argument, making fallacies more difficult to diagnose. Also, the components of the fallacy may be spread out over separate arguments.

I was just telling an old friend about the guy I'm dating & realized it pertains to this subject.

This guy has a 6-year-old daughter from his previous marriage, and he loves her more than anything in the world. When she was three, she started having severe neurological problems & was diagnosed with a rare genetic disease that has caused her to have multiple "brain tumors," which grow, multiply, and bleed. She has spent many, many months in the hospital & had multiple brain surgeries. Due to the tumors & surgeries, she is now wheelchair bound, cross-eyed, & tube fed. She has uncontrollable seizures, which have gotten so bad that the docs recently said they think it's best to operate again - but the surgery will severely affect her speech. He & his ex-wife now have to decide whether to take away the ability to speak from a little girl who has already lost her ability to walk, see (well), and eat, or leave her with increasingly frequent, out-of-control siezures & the knowledge that a severe brain hemorrhage is likely on the horizon.

And here's the thing: She got this condition from him. Until she became symptomatic & they started running tests, he had no idea he had this illness & had never even heard of it. Now he watches the person he loves most in the world suffer every day with the knowledge that it's his "fault". He can't do anything to take it back & make his little girl better. All he can do is ensure that he never passes this on to another innocent child.

We use multiple forms of birth control, and he plans to get a vasectomy some day when he can afford it. (His job doesn't offer health insurance & all his money goes to his daughter.) Of course, even vasectomies aren't 100% effective at preventing pregnancy. So he's told me that, in the unlikely event that I got pregnant, he would want me to have an abortion - so no other child of his will (possibly) have to suffer like his daughter does.

Does that make him a horrible person? A person whose decision is a selfish one, not based on love? Would that make us murderers?

zarocat wrote:

_ wrote:

I was just telling an old friend about the guy I'm dating & realized it pertains to this subject.

This guy has a 6-year-old daughter from his previous marriage, and he loves her more than anything in the world. When she was three, she started having severe neurological problems & was diagnosed with a rare genetic disease that has caused her to have multiple "brain tumors," which grow, multiply, and bleed. She has spent many, many months in the hospital & had multiple brain surgeries. Due to the tumors & surgeries, she is now wheelchair bound, cross-eyed, & tube fed. She has uncontrollable seizures, which have gotten so bad that the docs recently said they think it's best to operate again - but the surgery will severely affect her speech. He & his ex-wife now have to decide whether to take away the ability to speak from a little girl who has already lost her ability to walk, see (well), and eat, or leave her with increasingly frequent, out-of-control siezures & the knowledge that a severe brain hemorrhage is likely on the horizon.

And here's the thing: She got this condition from him. Until she became symptomatic & they started running tests, he had no idea he had this illness & had never even heard of it. Now he watches the person he loves most in the world suffer every day with the knowledge that it's his "fault". He can't do anything to take it back & make his little girl better. All he can do is ensure that he never passes this on to another innocent child.

We use multiple forms of birth control, and he plans to get a vasectomy some day when he can afford it. (His job doesn't offer health insurance & all his money goes to his daughter.) Of course, even vasectomies aren't 100% effective at preventing pregnancy. So he's told me that, in the unlikely event that I got pregnant, he would want me to have an abortion - so no other child of his will (possibly) have to suffer like his daughter does.

Does that make him a horrible person? A person whose decision is a selfish one, not based on love? Would that make us murderers?

To answer your question, no it does not make him a bad person. An abortion doesn't make anyone a bad person regardless of the reason. You know, that he has to put his guilt aside because it wasn't his fault. He didn't knowingly know, right ? I can imagine how difficult it is though not to take blame. Some people still go ahead with pregnancies that show signs of further complications when the chid is born for that child. Optimism plays a big role and if it is unfortunate, like in this case, I still wouldn't blame those parents.

Murderers ? Fuck NO! If it were legal, and she was suffering beyond control (surgeries, losing senses, motor skills etc.) I wouldn't hesitate to end her life because you are closer to an unbalanced life for her than a balanced life. Fuck that, I would even contemplate ending my child's life and accepting the consequences. If not, i'd have the best oxycontin dealer going and she would not feel any pain for the rest of her life.

Tell your man I feel his pain & that he is the strongest of humans.

Thank you. And I agree with your analogy & think it's a good one, though no one ever seems to understand. Sometimes "life" isn't the best option for everyone.

If I had a child - or any other loved one - whose life was consumed by pain & suffering, I would end it for them if I could. If it is a person who is capable of making his/her own decision, I think it has to be up to him/her & we have an obligation - out of love - to respect that decision, regardless of whether or not we agree. If it's a person who's not capable of making the decision or a living organism that is not yet a person, then the difficult decision of whether or not to allow his/her life to continue falls to us, the loved ones & especially the guardian, and we have to do what we feel is best for the person or potential person. (There is no such thing as what's best for the fetus - which is not a person - only what's best for the person the fetus might become.)

Funny how people always want to talk about the guilt they say people feel when they have abortions, but they never want to talk about the guilt people feel when they don't.

Anyone who thinks the decision made by my boyfriend - or anyone else having to decide whether or not to have an abortion, or whether or not to pull the plug on her grandma - is an EASY decision, or a SELFISH one, or one NOT made out of love, or one that should be taken away from parents (or children/grandchildren) and automatically made by the STATE, thereby stripping parents of their rights to protect their own children in the way they think is best.... anyone who thinks these things about these people has NO IDEA about the complexities & difficulties of life, or about pure, unselfish love - and clearly they don't care. Those people, the ones who would condemn others who are faced with such difficult decisions, are the real horrible, selfish, loveless people... if you ask me.

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

InHiding80 wrote:

It's not entirely murder because some of these cases are related to incest.

huh?!? :?

+1

_ wrote:

Thank you. And I agree with your analogy & think it's a good one, though no one ever seems to understand. Sometimes "life" isn't the best option for everyone.

If I had a child - or any other loved one - whose life was consumed by pain & suffering, I would end it for them if I could. If it is a person who is capable of making his/her own decision, I think it has to be up to him/her & we have an obligation - out of love - to respect that decision, regardless of whether or not we agree. If it's a person who's not capable of making the decision or a living organism that is not yet a person, then the difficult decision of whether or not to allow his/her life to continue falls to us, the loved ones & especially the guardian, and we have to do what we feel is best for the person or potential person. (There is no such thing as what's best for the fetus - which is not a person - only what's best for the person the fetus might become.)

Funny how people always want to talk about the guilt they say people feel when they have abortions, but they never want to talk about the guilt people feel when they don't.

Anyone who thinks the decision made by my boyfriend - or anyone else having to decide whether or not to have an abortion, or whether or not to pull the plug on her grandma - is an EASY decision, or a SELFISH one, or one NOT made out of love, or one that should be taken away from parents (or children/grandchildren) and automatically made by the STATE, thereby stripping parents of their rights to protect their own children in the way they think is best.... anyone who thinks these things about these people has NO IDEA about the complexities & difficulties of life, or about pure, unselfish love - and clearly they don't care. Those people, the ones who would condemn others who are faced with such difficult decisions, are the real horrible, selfish, loveless people... if you ask me.

We can just agree to disagree. I simply happen to believe life is always the best option. No exceptions.

Electric_Delta wrote:

_ wrote:

Thank you. And I agree with your analogy & think it's a good one, though no one ever seems to understand. Sometimes "life" isn't the best option for everyone.

If I had a child - or any other loved one - whose life was consumed by pain & suffering, I would end it for them if I could. If it is a person who is capable of making his/her own decision, I think it has to be up to him/her & we have an obligation - out of love - to respect that decision, regardless of whether or not we agree. If it's a person who's not capable of making the decision or a living organism that is not yet a person, then the difficult decision of whether or not to allow his/her life to continue falls to us, the loved ones & especially the guardian, and we have to do what we feel is best for the person or potential person. (There is no such thing as what's best for the fetus - which is not a person - only what's best for the person the fetus might become.)

Funny how people always want to talk about the guilt they say people feel when they have abortions, but they never want to talk about the guilt people feel when they don't.

Anyone who thinks the decision made by my boyfriend - or anyone else having to decide whether or not to have an abortion, or whether or not to pull the plug on her grandma - is an EASY decision, or a SELFISH one, or one NOT made out of love, or one that should be taken away from parents (or children/grandchildren) and automatically made by the STATE, thereby stripping parents of their rights to protect their own children in the way they think is best.... anyone who thinks these things about these people has NO IDEA about the complexities & difficulties of life, or about pure, unselfish love - and clearly they don't care. Those people, the ones who would condemn others who are faced with such difficult decisions, are the real horrible, selfish, loveless people... if you ask me.

We can just agree to disagree. I simply happen to believe life is always the best option. No exceptions.

Cool. Are you for the death penalty?

arthurdent wrote:

One of the things that really stuck out for me was the fact that on the death certificate for those who have been executed, the cause of death is listed as "homicide."

Homicide is defined as the killing of a human being by another human being, so yeah the death penalty is in fact homicide. It's not that shocking in my opinion

Electric_Delta wrote:

We can just agree to disagree. I simply happen to believe life is always the best option. No exceptions.

So when a baby in the womb is discovered to have appalling deformities that will make it's life quality extremely low it's the best option to let it be born? Nobody should have the right to tell a woman she must have an unwanted baby.