Bar Stool Economics

2

Comments

  • markin ball
    markin ball Posts: 1,076
    I got that e-mail forward last year. It is just dumb. For those who understand why it is dumb, no explanation is needed.
    For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible, right?
    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."

    "With our thoughts we make the world"
  • Electric_Delta
    Electric_Delta Posts: 977
    polaris_x wrote:
    Electric_Delta wrote:
    Who exactly determines what is good for the "whole?" Sounds a lot like socialism to me.

    it is socialism!! ... and the decision is made through consensus ... it has its pitfalls but in general - it works ...

    No, it doesn't.
    Bristow, VA (5/13/10)
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,297
    polaris_x wrote:
    Electric_Delta wrote:
    Who exactly determines what is good for the "whole?" Sounds a lot like socialism to me.

    it is socialism!! ... and the decision is made through consensus ... it has its pitfalls but in general - it works ...
    Where has it worked?
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    edited January 2011
    A couple of things wrong with this one, unfortunately.

    First of all, real world analogy, they certainly don't drink the same beer. In fact, I'd doubt they'd all drink beer at all.
    Secondly, beer (or any one thing really) isn't all anyone needs.
    Thirdly, who is the bartender? In the real world, it's all a cycle, so noone ends up sitting on the money anyway.
    Fourth, the richest guys are thus the ones getting the proceeds of the drinking. Poor guy 1-4 are probably the ones driving the beer truck etc, and the beer is their reward.

    Point is, no matter what they tell you, rich guys arent the ones shouldering society, they are in fact the guys placed at the premium spot in the system and they reap massive benefits. No matter what theoretical taxation % they can be shown to have. Just as those at the bottom get the worst spots in society, no matter how little tax they pay.
    Furthermore, the bulk of taxes is from the middle class anyway, although America is continuosly eroding theirs. Remember, if the system ends up with clear cut winners and losers and no inbetweens, society have a tendency to collapse, or revert into violent citizen infighting (Key concept here: "Nothing to lose"). So a big chunk of inbetween and social mobility is what we need. Not gawking at some fortunate people's wealth who we ask ever so kindly if we can be given something to sustain ourselves with.

    Way oversimplified and grossly misleading is my verdict.

    Peace
    Dan
    Post edited by OutOfBreath on
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Jason P wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    Electric_Delta wrote:
    Who exactly determines what is good for the "whole?" Sounds a lot like socialism to me.

    it is socialism!! ... and the decision is made through consensus ... it has its pitfalls but in general - it works ...
    Where has it worked?
    Literally everywhere. The mix of capitalism with social welfare is the source of the resounding success you (and me) are a part of. And that is what politics is about. Only fringe players see this as either/or. It is how much of each that's up for debate. Too much of one stifle creativity and progress, too much of the other breeds violence, resentment and ultimately starvation for many.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    nearly any index you can find that lists the best countries in the world will be dotted with modern-day socialist structures ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

    although the US is actually fourth this year in the UN index - it's primarily because it scores so high in economic opportunity ... when you look at the individual components such as education - it actually scores quite low and when you adjust for inequality ... the US drops down to 12th ...
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    Pure socialism does not work.
    1.) Socialistic principles are mutually exclusive with free market principles, namely
    - Competition, which is the only general, feasible mechanism for increasing quality and reducing real prices over the long term.
    - Profit-loss mechanism, which is the only effective mechanism, on the whole, for distributing finite capital and savings in a manner that leads towards consumer satisfaction
    - Most individual motivation, which is the backbone of entrepreneurship, and thus progress of society.
    2.) Inevitably leads to tragedy of the commons
    3.) In todays day and age, inevitably leads to expansion of central government, authoritarianism, and increasing waste due to increasing layers of bureacracy.
    4.) The goal of "helping people who really need it" is far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far better met by a decentralized, bottom up society based on individual liberty + free markets.
    Reasons for this include:
    - Far less waste inherent in large bureaucracy
    - Far less waste that is a typical secondary consequence of government bureaucratic inefficiency.
    - bottom-up = far easier for people-employee (government) accountability
    - bottom-up = resources are far better allocated, i.e a local organization in my town knows a hell of a lot better what my town needs than some bureaucrat in DC

    - People as a whole are generous, and its ironic that this is used in an argument for government programs, i.e "capitalism is cruel (no it isnt -- it is a-emotional), and without government programs, people wouldnt get any help whatsoever).

    The obvious confounded is that in any sort of democratic-type system, these government programs would not be voted in, unless a majority of the votees believed in helping people in some way. Thus making the original, and very common, proposition here meaningless.

    - The "golden age of capitalism", which most poeple ignorantly point to as its "failure", was nothing of the sort -- its was also one of the most generous times -- the richest men were some of the biggest philanthropists.

    Furthermore, the best service you can do to society is not to just donate your money -- it is to be an entrepreneur, and make millions by making a common product better & cheaper.
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,297
    polaris_x wrote:
    nearly any index you can find that lists the best countries in the world will be dotted with modern-day socialist structures ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

    although the US is actually fourth this year in the UN index - it's primarily because it scores so high in economic opportunity ... when you look at the individual components such as education - it actually scores quite low and when you adjust for inequality ... the US drops down to 12th ...
    Education is one of the five major categories that the index uses for its rankings according to the Wikipedia link. Does it bother you when the US ranks high in a world ranking? Or are you upset that we overtook Canada this year. ;)
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • UpSideDown
    UpSideDown Posts: 1,966
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    Literally everywhere. The mix of capitalism with social welfare is the source of the resounding success you (and me) are a part of. And that is what politics is about. Only fringe players see this as either/or. It is how much of each that's up for debate. Too much of one stifle creativity and progress, too much of the other breeds violence, resentment and ultimately starvation for many.

    Peace
    Dan

    I vote Dan for AMT President.
  • VINNY GOOMBA
    VINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,825
    The tax code in this country is literally over 10,000 pages thick. So no one REALLY understands how taxes work in this country, and that's one of the major problems here.

    A slim minority, if any, of our tax money goes towards funding the services we expect from government. It goes towards interest payments on the debt that actually DOES finance government.

    I wish taxes would become completely VOLUNTARY tomorrow. How about a more free-enterprise approach to government? If you think that government-run education is important, and should be controlled by the Dept of Ed-- cut them a check. Defense? Cut them a check. Don't think they're getting enough? Campaign on their behalf, and fundraise for them. Let them work with what they have, and make it truly the choice of the people which agencies stay and which ones go-- or maybe they all end up staying with budgets that the people are actually WILLING to shell out for.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Jason P wrote:
    Education is one of the five major categories that the index uses for its rankings according to the Wikipedia link. Does it bother you when the US ranks high in a world ranking? Or are you upset that we overtook Canada this year. ;)

    if you read what i wrote ... the US scores high this year simply based on economic opportunity ... when adjusted for inequality factors, the US is 12th ... so, basically - it just means that if you want to goto a country where the laws are favourable to make a lot of money without burden - the US is the place to be ... but it's also a place where the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer ...
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    polaris_x wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    Education is one of the five major categories that the index uses for its rankings according to the Wikipedia link. Does it bother you when the US ranks high in a world ranking? Or are you upset that we overtook Canada this year. ;)

    if you read what i wrote ... the US scores high this year simply based on economic opportunity ... when adjusted for inequality factors, the US is 12th ... so, basically - it just means that if you want to goto a country where the laws are favourable to make a lot of money without burden - the US is the place to be ... but it's also a place where the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer ...
    THe reason the poor are getting poorer is because of our socialistic welfare programs... durr hurr...

    Socialism is the doctrine that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that his life and his work do not belong to him, but belong to society, that the only justification of his existence is his service to society, and that society may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own collective good... You think that is positive?
    Socialism also does not recognize human greed, it simply pretends it does not exist.
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,297
    polaris_x wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    Education is one of the five major categories that the index uses for its rankings according to the Wikipedia link. Does it bother you when the US ranks high in a world ranking? Or are you upset that we overtook Canada this year. ;)

    if you read what i wrote ... the US scores high this year simply based on economic opportunity ... when adjusted for inequality factors, the US is 12th ... so, basically - it just means that if you want to goto a country where the laws are favourable to make a lot of money without burden - the US is the place to be ... but it's also a place where the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer ...
    So by taking out the one category that the US ranks best in, the US drops ... why are you looking for ways to skew the statistics so that the US looks worse? The UNI index uses three main categories to measure their results, one of which is education (life expectancy and income are the others). Even with education taking account for one-third of the total score, the US is 4th. In your quest to make the US look worse, did you take out the other countries best statistic out of the equation and see how the playing field leveled out after that?

    Sorry, but the US is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. A country with over 300 million is going to have issues, but it is still one of the greatest places to live in the world.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Jason P wrote:
    So by taking out the one category that the US ranks best in, the US drops ... why are you looking for ways to skew the statistics so that the US looks worse? The UNI index uses three main categories to measure their results, one of which is education (life expectancy and income are the others). Even with education taking account for one-third of the total score, the US is 4th. In your quest to make the US look worse, did you take out the other countries best statistic out of the equation and see how the playing field leveled out after that?

    Sorry, but the US is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. A country with over 300 million is going to have issues, but it is still one of the greatest places to live in the world.

    although some people won't believe me, it's not my intention to purposefully make the US look worse ... i am just aiding in the interpretation of the data ... i think it's important to show how one category can skew a score ... there are also other indexes that uses similar variables ...

    http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/15/inte ... tries.html

    the US is 11th here ... but really it could be 5th here as well as the primary point tho is that the countries that are consistently at the top of these indexes are examples of modern-day socialist states ... access to health care and education are priorities as well as quality of life ...

    you guys don't think socialism works ... these charts regardless of where you put the US shows that it does ...
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,297
    polaris_x wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    So by taking out the one category that the US ranks best in, the US drops ... why are you looking for ways to skew the statistics so that the US looks worse? The UNI index uses three main categories to measure their results, one of which is education (life expectancy and income are the others). Even with education taking account for one-third of the total score, the US is 4th. In your quest to make the US look worse, did you take out the other countries best statistic out of the equation and see how the playing field leveled out after that?

    Sorry, but the US is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. A country with over 300 million is going to have issues, but it is still one of the greatest places to live in the world.

    although some people won't believe me, it's not my intention to purposefully make the US look worse ... i am just aiding in the interpretation of the data ... i think it's important to show how one category can skew a score ... there are also other indexes that uses similar variables ...

    http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/15/inte ... tries.html

    the US is 11th here ... but really it could be 5th here as well as the primary point tho is that the countries that are consistently at the top of these indexes are examples of modern-day socialist states ... access to health care and education are priorities as well as quality of life ...

    you guys don't think socialism works ... these charts regardless of where you put the US shows that it does ...
    The US has social programs but I don't interpret that as socialism or evidence that socialism is the way to go.

    Anyway, my beef on my last post was more to do with the continuous negative view that you portray onto the US (at least in this forum). I know you are in Canada, and as far as geography goes I couldn't envision a better neighboring country. While some of our country's policies differ, we are pretty much the same. I couldn't envision ever collecting stats on why Canada sucks (unless you want to talk about recent Stanley Cup Finals appearances ;) ) and then going on Rush’s forum and point out the country’s faults to Canadian fans.

    Anywho, you are free to your opinions . . . but please just lighten up a little on your neighbors to the south. This country is not comprised of a handful of people that look like the Monopoly Man floating around in zeppelins while they look down upon a countryside where the other 98% huddle together in cardboard boxes while a never ending sea of smoke-stacks billow hot black ash onto a baron landscape … unless you are visiting Detroit, then the previous ramble is applicable :D:o:cry: .
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Jason P wrote:
    The US has social programs but I don't interpret that as socialism or evidence that socialism is the way to go.

    Anyway, my beef on my last post was more to do with the continuous negative view that you portray onto the US (at least in this forum). I know you are in Canada, and as far as geography goes I couldn't envision a better neighboring country. While some of our country's policies differ, we are pretty much the same. I couldn't envision ever collecting stats on why Canada sucks (unless you want to talk about recent Stanley Cup Finals appearances ;) ) and then going on Rush’s forum and point out the country’s faults to Canadian fans.

    Anywho, you are free to your opinions . . . but please just lighten up a little on your neighbors to the south. This country is not comprised of a handful of people that look like the Monopoly Man floating around in zeppelins while they look down upon a countryside where the other 98% huddle together in cardboard boxes while a never ending sea of smoke-stacks billow hot black ash onto a baron landscape … unless you are visiting Detroit, then the previous ramble is applicable :D:o:cry: .

    the US does indeed have socialist programs but i would not describe it as a socialist nation ...

    as for your defensiveness of my comments - it is not surprising ... it is what makes americans americans ... i've said it on here a bunch - your greatest asset is also one of your great weaknesses ... pride often kicks in when faced with criticism ... it is probably why not a whole lot has changed ... i consider myself fairly objective within my own biases ... i spend a lot of time in the US and i believe the US has a huge role to play in global issues ... there are indeed many great things about the country and just as many not so great ... within the context of this forum, we rarely talk about issues that are good simply because they wouldn't be issues ...

    i am more than prepared to look at my own country critically ... feel free to start a thread on why canada sucks and i will most likely agree with a lot of it ... if you are uncomfortable with criticisms of the red white and blue - i would suggest you put me on ignore because i'm not going to withold my point of view simply because some people can't take it ...

    also, i would add that many of the criticisms i have of the US are more than likely shared by the band members of both PJ and Rush ... ;)
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,297
    polaris_x wrote:

    the US does indeed have socialist programs but i would not describe it as a socialist nation ...

    as for your defensiveness of my comments - it is not surprising ... it is what makes americans americans ... i've said it on here a bunch - your greatest asset is also one of your great weaknesses ... pride often kicks in when faced with criticism ... it is probably why not a whole lot has changed ... i consider myself fairly objective within my own biases ... i spend a lot of time in the US and i believe the US has a huge role to play in global issues ... there are indeed many great things about the country and just as many not so great ... within the context of this forum, we rarely talk about issues that are good simply because they wouldn't be issues ...

    i am more than prepared to look at my own country critically ... feel free to start a thread on why canada sucks and i will most likely agree with a lot of it ... if you are uncomfortable with criticisms of the red white and blue - i would suggest you put me on ignore because i'm not going to withold my point of view simply because some people can't take it ...

    also, i would add that many of the criticisms i have of the US are more than likely shared by the band members of both PJ and Rush ... ;)
    It pride to a certain extent, but I've lived all across the States and this is really a very nice place to live. And it is still a land of opportunity to anyone who is willing to work for it.

    Anyway, I would never bash Canada (except for a one border guard in Alberta who I hope lights himself on fire). Canada has given us hockey, high-octane brew, John Candy (who ironically attacked you hosers in Canadian Bacon), the McKenzie brothers, and a hilarious but lovable accent. Hell, I'll even forgive you guys for Barenaked Ladies and Justin Bieber.

    All said, have a very nice weekend ... or as the Canadians say, take off, eh!
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Jason P wrote:
    It pride to a certain extent, but I've lived all across the States and this is really a very nice place to live. And it is still a land of opportunity to anyone who is willing to work for it.

    Anyway, I would never bash Canada (except for a one border guard in Alberta who I hope lights himself on fire). Canada has given us hockey, high-octane brew, John Candy (who ironically attacked you hosers in Canadian Bacon), the McKenzie brothers, and a hilarious but lovable accent. Hell, I'll even forgive you guys for Barenaked Ladies and Justin Bieber.

    All said, have a very nice weekend ... or as the Canadians say, take off, eh!

    i think i've been through over 40 states and spent significant time (over a week) in at least 25 of them ... it really is a nice place to live ... at the end of the day, i only really have one complaint and it permeates through and that is corporations have taken over everything in the country from gov't to media to food production ...

    still tho ... there is definitely plenty to like ... national parks, tailgating at football games, fresh crawdads in new orleans, etc ...

    you have a nice weekend too ...
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,834
    Canadian beer sucks ass compared to US microbrews!!!!

    "High octane"? Maybe High octane piss water. Of course, their piss water beats the hell out of our piss water. :lol:
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,834
    polaris_x wrote:

    i think i've been through over 40 states and spent significant time (over a week) in at least 25 of them ..

    Who are you running from? ;)
    hippiemom = goodness

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